Too many times to count. So we are thrilled to have them with us today. Say weid also like to have been watching demonstrations unfold in our neighborhood and across the nation as we planned for the future of fords theater. We know we have work to do. We commit to using our platform to tell stories that speak to the present moment with courage, inspiration, healing, and of course, abraham lincoln. With, were talking richard and david about a specific play in which they all took part, necessary sacrifices, which fords theater premiered in 2012. Fords commissioned richard to write the play to celebrate leadership in 2011. This play explores the relationship between president abraham lincoln, played by david selby, and the abolitionist Frederick Douglass, played by Craig Wallace. It seems particularly important this week to consider the leadership of these two great americans as they helped our country find its way through one of our greatest crises. So i want to start this afternoon just by, first of all, welcoming you all. Thank you for being with us. From across the country, california ndc we got and d. C. We go coasttocoast here. I want to start with richard. Tell us more about the play. How and why did you put the play together . Richard ok, basically its the story of two meetings that happened at the white house between eight or him lincoln and Frederick Abraham lincoln and Frederick Douglass. One was in 1853, another in 1864, in which they basically went at it 1863, another in 1864, in which basically they went at it in a way that was best for everybody. Secondly, when the crisis was over, they tried to envision what kind of country we wanted because we couldnt wait until then to start shaping. So, first its about douglas trying to convince lincoln to make it a war. Both realizing they have to face the implications of that, what thats going to mean in terms of lack citizenship and equal rights black citizenship and equal rights. Its a push pull. Douglass is an outsider. Hes an instigator. Lincoln is an insider. Hes trying to say this is going to be harder than you think it is because theres politics involved, and institutions involved. So he said the play was commissioned via the center for education of leadership that was going to open across the street. I had already done a couple of things for the theater, a couple of short things. One destiny, some of you may know. So i got an email in the fall of 2010 asking if i would be interested in writing a play for 2012. The thing you need to realize is commissions often come with parameters. And there are things that the theater once you to do when you write the play. Its almost like an assignment. So, one destiny, lincoln assassination, halfhour, two actors, go. So i had to find my assignment for this play. In the original email, we would like it to be an expiration of leadership. We would like it to focus on lincoln, 35 characters, simple set. We want one of the characters to be africanamerican, if possible, and we want rehearsal in one year. [laughter] is. Ard it is what it the funny thing was, the thing that jumped out at me, was the fourth thing, was we want one character to be africanamerican. Especially with a small cast, 35 size cast. I didnt want that character to be minor. I didnt want that character to be a servant. I didnt want that character to be one of those multiple roleplaying people. I wanted that character to be a legitimate dramatic character in the play. And its funny because when i go back and look at the emails, my first email response back to fords was, what about Frederick Douglass . He was the first one that came to washington. We kicked it around for a while. And then, bless your heart sarah, the director of education had mentioned a book called, a radical republican radical and a republican, by james oates. In the subtitle is, Frederick Douglass, abraham lincoln, and the triumph of slavery politics. I got to the part where they met the first time. I said that it. Dachshund thats it. Thats it. I have characters. I have theme. I have setting. I have focus. So now its ago. Let me come back to that for a minute. Before i do that, i want to bring david and craig into the conversation here. Lincolnou have played in many, many venues all across the country. And you have played lincoln for fords theater previous to this our production, another play that we commissioned. You played lincoln in numerous places. What made you what drew you to this play . What made you feel this was worth breaking lincoln back to this bringing lincoln back to the stage . I think because of the relationship between douglass and lincoln and how important they were to each other. I just thought that and then when i read the play, and ive had this same reaction in this last days leading up to now, going back, reading it again i still have my script. In my folder right here. Notes and my landing and my comments. You know, everybodys notes or whatever that pertained especially that pertained to lincoln. Just, i dont know. It just spoke to me, paul. Itspoke to me in a way that just goes back to what richard said. Here wereat hubert two equals that had, ironically, not the sameway, upbringing, but very similar. They were both, you know, not particularly well educated in a former formal education cents. Douglas sense. Douglass, as we knew, was a former slave. Raised down inn, kentucky, and then they moved up to illinois. He was driven,uch as douglass was driven to i dont know, to do something. Energy and they theypeople that would compromise, but they remember why they were doing what they were doing to better make the place make the world a little better. And if they can do that, that was it. And it just spoke to me in those ways. Paul terrific, terrific. Now craig, of course, you had a very different say different, very unique journey coming to necessary sacrifices. And im not going to settle up anywhere, but why dont you tell us a little bit about your journey and how you got here. I know it was short and rapid, but i will let you go and tell us. Well, i was in rehearsal for a production of to kill a mockingbird at milwaukee rep. We were in the first week of her herschel. And i get a call from chris of rehearsal. And i got a call from crystal foxe, saying would you like to leave the show and play Frederick Douglass in our show, necessary sacrifices . Your current Frederick Douglass at the time had taken ill and you are about to go into tech. Long story short, i arrived on a thursday. We text tested that we can, andthen we had weekend, then we had an audience. It was exciting and terrifying at the same time. Thanks to everybody at the ford, david in particular, for their patients. I got to learn the play and ultimately do it and enjoy doing it. Craig, you were not only its one thing to step in and im just going to plop in and fill in here but you not only e from afar and dropped in [indiscernible] but you actually embody the character and the role so brilliantly. By the end of it, we were all thinking oh, my god. Could we have ever imagined anyone else doing this play . And watching you and david on stage was really just a treat and a dream and just a great place to go. And so a whirlwind for you. Craig thank you, and you know it was already strong going in. I just they were already built. I just moved my stuff in. Paul if i remember quickly, with a script for a performance or two. Craig james was our set designer. And theme this book, script was written in this beautiful book with parchment paper. So it looked like Frederick Douglass was carrying around this. But, when in fact it was my , when this period book in fact it was my script. Worked, one that was popular with audiences. And people, here we are eight years after we produced the show , and people still talk about necessary sacrifices. , you think part of it is know, we know that douglas and lincoln were contemporaries. Were inthat they washington at the same time. But we dont often think about they actually interacted. And i think thats one of the things that keeps this so interesting and intriguing to audiences. But one of the questions i wanted to toss at you, richard, was one of the things that i think fords has always been so successful at. Its kind of this intersection of history and theater. And so you talk about the two meetings that Frederick Douglass had with lincoln at the white house. So that is fact. Douglass, we know went to the white house on two occasions, had meetings with lincoln. What else do we know about those two meetings . Almost nothing, which is why its great for a dramatist. Because its wide open at that point. I mean, you do have a responsibility to that time and to the people. All we know pretty much everything we know about firsthand is from douglass because he wrote a couple of letters. He mentioned the first meeting in a speech. He was proud to go out and speak and tell stories about how he went to the white house. He wrote about it extensively in his third autobiography. By that time he was buffing up his image so it got embellished. Of course obviously, lincoln never left an autobiography and never spoke about it, so all we know is what douglas said and whatever contextual things we can find out about policy at the time. Bonesad just the barest that there were these two meetings, they did happen. I did Historical Research about the meetings. But obviously no one was in the rooms so you cant know what was said. Thats why i say the intersection of history and drama becomes interesting because its not history. Its drama. It has to be drama. It has to work as drama. So you have to have a sense of history hanging over back here. Youre not outraging it too much. Its an interesting box to be in. Paul well listen, we have a very special treat today that craig and david have agreed to read a scene from the play. And im going to let richard set up the scene and give us a little synopsis. I do want to just remind our audiences that this is a reading , that we gave the script to craig and david, sort of give them a couple days ago and certainly they are going to read it for us. But richard, would you set up the scene were going to see and let these guys show the amazing prowess of these two great men . 1863, the summer after the emancipation proclamation, and one of the elements without black men were accepted into the army for the first time. Douglass became a passionate recruiter for that. His sons were the first to sign up because he felt this was our moment. Once we get that gold button on our jacket and we get the muska in our hands and we fight for the nation, they will never be able to deny us our equality even though they were getting half the pay of white soldiers and were not allowed to become officers. At least we had this chance. He was a very successful recruiter. Then they went off to fight. The south issued orders any black troops who were captured were either to be shot or sent into slavery. It was brutal. The word from lincoln was silence. And that did it for douglass. Everything else was problematic. Im not going to sign up another man to go fight for this unless i get some support, some backup in the white house. So he went to washington and he got to see secretary stanton. Stanton kind of, didnt exactly blow him off, but offered him commission in the army to go say, essentially, be quiet. And then right nextdoor, he went to the white house, unannounced, to take it up with lincoln. He sent in his card and lincoln brought him in. And just before this scene, and his most folksy, humorous prairie politician way, lincoln talked douglass down, or so he thinks, about the pay and promotions. Lincoln thinks this is great. Hes going to recruit troops. Thanks for stopping by. And then this. All right, gentlemen. Craig well, i would be grateful david well, i would be grateful to have you recruiting. Its good to talk to you, mr. Douglass. Craig theres something else. David go on. Craig suppose i put on that uniform, with those eagles shining on every button, go to the mississippi valley. And suppose i should be captured by the rebels. You know what Jefferson Davis is preaching. David one moment. Captured while fighting for the union is a dead man, at the very least sold to slavery, no matter his rank, whether a freed man or runaway. David i know what youre driving at, douglass. And you wronged me. Craig you can pay them double. You can make every colored soldier a general. But if they have no protection david protection . Youre talking about retaliation, killing seven prisoners, answering murder with murder. Craig if the alternative is answering murder with silence. David not so fast. Craig pay and promotions, fine. I dont like it, but i understand. But those black men who joined your army are my responsibility. And when they fought like heroes at fort hudson, at milliken spend, for wegner, only to be fort wegner, only to be tied up and shot, not a word came from the president of the United States. David you dont want protection. You want retaliation. You want revenge. Craig i want justice. David its not justice to kill a man for something he didnt do. Craig only because the prisoners you have to shoot might be rebels. But theyre white. Is that it . David that is surely with the country will say. We knew lincoln will get to this. Now white men are to be killed. Craig are to be killed by niggers. Nevertheless, i have ordered it. Against every bit of my better judgment. Craig when . David 10 days ago. For every soldier the United States killed in violation of the laws of war, our rebel soldiers shall be executed. And for everyone slaved by the enemy, a rebel soldier will be placed in hard labor until the other shall be released. Craig i didnt know. David how more killing will lead to less, i dont know. But the army seems to agree with you. Craig can you guarantee that this policy will be carried out . David why do you doubt it . Craig because, excellency, with all due respect, you have a pension for compromise david never mind. I know what you think of me. You certainly field your newspapers with it for all to read filled your newspapers with it for all to read. The situation is not the various disasters experienced by our armies and navies, but the tardy, hesitating vacillating policy of the president of the United States. Craig that is not precisely what i meant. David looks damn precise to me. And here, an administration without a policy is an administration without brains. Since while a thing is to be done, it implies a known way to do it. And he who professes an ability to do it but cannot show how it can be done, confesses his own imbecility. Craig i wasnt aware you had a subtraction. David i dont. But thats hardly the way to get me to buy one. Craig i wrote that when the emancipation was still a question. David now you know the answer. Did i not do what i said i would do . Craig so far as it goes. David but i did it. And no man can say that having once taken a position, i have contradicted it or retreated from. Find go slow, and i may roundabout ways to get where im going, but i get there. Craig and in the meantime, people suffer. You neednt lecture me on suffer me. Suffering. There are batches on this table that would make you shudder. I read them everyday. I would stop every bit of it if i could. Craig Jefferson Davis issued his order when the first colored regiments were formed. Why didnt you order retaliation . David that people, the people had to accept it first. Craig that is why i have such doubts. The daily stop accepting it may be when you stop enforcing it. David mr. Douglass, i have issued my order and i expect it to be followed. If you find that target and hesitating, im sorry. But i can only go as far and as fast as the people of this country let me. Craig that is not leadership. David it is in a democracy. Understand something. Of any soldierf cuts me to the core. But there can be no progress were colored soldiers are concerned until the country feels the same way. Need as it is, the people to be as moved by the suffering and the gallantry of negro troops as they were of that of antietam or shiloh. Youri did not send volunteers into battle intending for them to be butchered afterwards. Craig but it happened. David and what it were not so. Thehaving happened, and cause of bringing the country along, those men at fort wegner, militant spend, yes, i read those reports too. They became necessary sacrifices to that end. Craig so thats it . They died to make a point. David not at all. But if there is a point to be made, is that not one you yourself would make . Craig then you may keep your commission. I will give you no more necessary sacrifices until you can tell me which ones you consider unnecessary. Im sorry to have taken your time, excellency. God bless you. Bravo. Bravo. I mean, this is just a small taste of what the play is about, which is these two, you know, monumental historical characters in our history, and their relationship. And you can see the tension between douglass and lincoln in the scene. But i think as most of us know, there was that tension throughout their lifetime, but all of you can join in and chime in here, that douglass was one of lincolns most, one of um,olns biggest, um, supporters is probably the wrong word, but after lincoln died, douglass always and toned lincoln because he knew that lincoln was on the right side. Am i right, richard . Richard i think so. He knew that he went farther than others. I dont think he ever felt he went far enough. But relatively speaking, he did laud lincoln as far as he went. And i think that wouldve continued. I think if lincoln had not died, i really do believe that relationship wouldve continued over the next term. I think he wouldve had douglass back. I think he wouldve asked him. You know that phrase, i keep coming back to that phrase, the stone that sharpens the knife . You know that phrase . I think of douglass as the stone that kept sharpening lincolns life knife. Not that it wasnt sharp to begin with, but he needed to be pushed and guided. They did see each other. What you said earlier was right, that they recognized something of themselves in the other. And thats why they were able to listen and ive thought about the scene the other day when we were talking about it. It wouldve been so easy for lincoln to say no, im not going to see him. The most famous black man in america just showed up outside your door and ive got a line of people to see. It would have been easy to say im not going to see him. Or brought him in and done whatever the 19th century equivalent of a photo op was. Great to see you. Glad you liked the proclamation. Have a nice day. Thanks for dropping by. But he brought him in and he listened. And it didnt mean he agreed, and it didnt mean they didnt have differences, but they respected each other enough to listen to what they had to say about where they were going. Think, j