Across the nation. As we plan for the future of fords theater, we know we have work to do. We commit to using our platform to tell stories that speak to the present moment with courage, inspiration, healing, and of course, Abraham Lincoln. Today, were talking with richard, craig, and david about a specific play in which they all took part, necessary sacrifices, which fords theater premiered in 2012. Fords commissioned richard to write the play to celebrate leadership in 2011. This play explores the relationship between president Abraham Lincoln, played by david selby, and the abolitionist Frederick Douglass, played by Craig Wallace. It seems particularly important this week to consider the leadership of these two great americans as they helped our country find its way through one of our greatest crises. So i want to start this afternoon just by, first of all, welcoming you all. Thank you so much for being with us, from across the country, california and d. C. We go coasttocoast here. I want to start with richard. Tell us more about the play. How and why did you put the play together . Richard ok, basically, its the story of two meetings that happened at the white house during the civil war between Abraham Lincoln and Frederick Douglass. One was in 1863, another in 1864, in which basically they went at it, first, how to get the country through this crisis in a way that was best for everybody. Secondly, when the crisis was over, they tried to envision what kind of country we wanted when the war was over because we couldnt wait until then to start shaping. So, first its about douglas trying to convince lincoln to make the war and abolition war. About lincolnn agrees to that, both realizing they have to face the implications of that, what thats going to mean in terms of black citizenship and equal rights. Its a pushpull. Douglass is an outsider. Hes an instigator. He is agitating for what he believes needs to happen. Lincoln is an insider. Hes trying to say this is going to be harder than you think it is because theres politics involved, and institutions involved. So he said the play was commissioned via the center for education and leadership that was going to open across the street. I had already done a couple of things for the theater, a couple of short things. One destiny, some of you may know. So i got an email in the fall of 2010 asking if i would be interested in writing a play for 2012. The thing you need to realize is that commissions often come with parameters. And there are things that the theater wants you to do when you write the play. Its almost like an assignment. So, one destiny, lincoln assassination, halfhour, two actors, go. So i had to find my assignment for this play. In the original email, we would like it to be an exploration of leadership. We would like it to focus on lincoln, 35 characters, simple set. We want one of the characters to be africanamerican, if possible, and we go into rehearsal in one year. [laughter] it is what it is. The funny thing was, the thing that jumped out at me, was the fourth thing, was we want one character to be africanamerican. What i felt at that point, especially with a small cast, 35 size cast, i didnt want that character to be minor. I didnt want that character to be a servant. I didnt want that character to be one of those multiple roleplaying people. I wanted that character to be a legitimate dramatic character in the play. And its funny because when i go back and look at the emails, my first email response back to fords was, what about Frederick Douglass . He was the first one that came to mind. We kicked it around for a while. And then, bless your heart sarah, the director of education had mentioned a book called, a radical and a republican, by james oates. And the subtitle is, Frederick Douglass, Abraham Lincoln, and the triumph of antislavery politics. I got to the part where they met the first time. I said, thats it. I have characters. I have theme. I have setting. I have focus. So now its go. Paul let me come back to that for a minute. Before i do that, i want to bring david and craig into the conversation here. David, you have played lincoln in many, many venues all across the country. And you have played lincoln for fords theater previous to this production, in our production, another play that we commissioned. You played lincoln in numerous places. What made you what drew you to this play . What made you feel this play was worth bringing lincoln back to the stage . David i think because of the relationship between douglass and lincoln and how important they were to each other. I just thought that and then when i read the play, and ive had this same reaction in this last days leading up to now, going back, reading it again i still have my script. In my folder right here. [laughter] and i have my notes and my lining and my comments. You know, everybodys notes or whatever that pertained especially that pertained to lincoln. But i just, i dont know. It just spoke to me, paul. It spoke to me in a way that it just goes back to what richard said. I found that here were two equals that had, ironically, in a certain way, not the same upbringing, but very similar. They were both, you know, not particularly well educated, in a formal education sense. Douglass, we knew, was a slave. Lincoln was born, raised down in kentucky, and then they moved up to illinois. And his life, he was driven, such as douglass was driven to, i dont know, to do something. They just had an energy and they werent people that they would compromise, but they remembered why they were doing what they were doing, to better make the place to make the world a little better. And if they can do that, that was it. And it just spoke to me in those ways. Paul terrific, terrific. Now craig, of course, you had a very different say different, very unique journey coming to necessary sacrifices. And im not going to settle up anywhere, but why dont you tell us a little bit about your journey and how you got here . I know it was short and rapid, but i will let you go and tell us. Craig well, i was in rehearsal for a production of to kill a mockingbird at milwaukee rep. We were in our first week of rehearsal and i got a call from crystal foxe, and she says, would you like to leave the show and play Frederick Douglass in our show, necessary sacrifices . Your current Frederick Douglass at the time had taken ill and you are about to go into tech. Long story short, i arrived on a thursday. We tested that weekend, and that next week, we had an audience. It was exciting and terrifying at the same time. But thanks to everybody at the ford, david in particular, and richards patience, i got to learn the play and ultimately do it and enjoy doing it. Paul craig, you were not only its one thing to step in and im just going to plop in and fill in here but you not only came from afar and dropped in and what a lifesaver you were for us, but you actually embody the character and the role so brilliantly. By the end of it, we were all thinking, oh my god, could we have ever imagined anyone else doing this play . And watching you and david on stage was really just a treat and a dream and just a great place to go. And so a whirlwind for you. Craig thank you, and you know, it was already strong going in. They were already built. I just moved my stuff in. Paul if i remember quickly, with a script for a performance or two. Craig james was our set designer. He made me this book, and the script was written in this beautiful book with parchment paper. So it looked like Frederick Douglass was carrying around this this period book, when in fact it was my script. It all worked, one that was popular with audiences. And people, here we are eight years after we produced the show, and people still talk about necessary sacrifices. And i think part of it is, you know, we know that douglas and lincoln were contemporaries. We know that they were in washington at the same time. But we dont often think about they actually interacted. And i think thats one of the things that keeps this play so interesting and intriguing to audiences. But one of the questions i wanted to toss at you, richard, was one of the things that i think fords has always been so successful at, its kind of this intersection of history and theater. And so you talk about the two meetings that Frederick Douglass had with lincoln at the white house. So that is fact. Douglass, we know, went to the white house on two occasions, had meetings with lincoln. What else do we know about those two meetings . Almost nothing, which is why its great for a dramatist. Because its wide open at that point. I mean, you do have a responsibility to that time and to the people. All we know pretty much everything we know about firsthand is from douglass because he wrote a couple of letters, he mentioned the first meeting in a speech. He was proud to go out and speak and tell stories about what it was like to meet lincoln and go to the white house. He wrote about it extensively in his third autobiography. By that time he was buffing up his image so it got embellished. Lincoln wrote nothing. Of course obviously, lincoln never left an autobiography and never spoke about it, so all we know is what douglas said and whatever contextual things we can find out about policy at the time. So i had just the barest bones of it, that there were these two meetings, they did happen. I did Historical Research to find out about the meetings. But obviously no one was in the rooms so you cant know what was said. It was not recorded. It was not recorded. Thats why i say the intersection of history and drama becomes interesting because its not history. Its drama. It has to be drama. It has to work as drama. So you have to have a sense of history hanging over back here. Youre not outraging it too much. Its an interesting box to be in. Paul well, listen, we have a very special treat today that craig and david have agreed to read a scene from the play. And im going to let richard set up the scene and give us a little synopsis. I do want to just remind our audiences that this is a reading, that we gave the script to craig and david, sort of gave them an excerpt a couple days ago and certainly they are going to read it for us. But richard, would you set up the scene were going to see and let these guys show the amazing prowess of these two great men . Richard ok, the set up, its 1863, the summer after the emancipation proclamation, and one of the elements was that black men were accepted into the army for the first time. Douglass became a passionate recruiter for that. His sons were the first to sign up because he felt this was our moment. Once we get that gold button on our jacket and we get the musket in our hands and we fight for the nation, they will never be able to deny us our equality and our rights, even though they were getting half the pay of white soldiers and were not allowed to become officers, at least we had this chance. He was a very successful recruiter. Then they went off to fight. The south issued orders that any black troops who were captured were either to be shot or sent into slavery. It was brutal. They were not to be treated like regular prisoners. The word from lincoln was silence. And that did it for douglass. Everything else was problematic. Im not going to sign up another man to go fight for this unless i get some support, some backup from the white house. So he went to washington and he got to see secretary stanton. Stanton kind of, didnt exactly blow him off, but offered him commission in the army to go recruit, which was essentially saying, be quiet. And then right nextdoor, he went to the white house, unannounced, to take it up with lincoln. He sent in his card and lincoln brought him in. And just before this scene, in his most folksy, humorous prairie politician way, lincoln talked douglass down, or so he thinks, about the pay and promotions. Lincoln is thinking, this is great. He is going to go back and recruit black troops, we are all good, thanks for stopping by. And then this. Paul all right, gentlemen. David well, i will be grateful to have you recruiting. Its good to talk to you, mr. Douglass. Craig theres something else. David go on. Craig suppose i put on that uniform, with those eagles shining on every button, go to the mississippi valley. And suppose in the course of those efforts, i should be captured by the rebels. You know what Jefferson Davis has decreed. David one moment. Craig a negro captured while fighting for the union is a dead man, at the very least sold to slavery, no matter his rank, whether he be a freed man or runaway. David i know what youre driving at, douglass. And you wronged me. Craig you can pay them double. You can make every colored soldier a general. But if they have no protection david protection . Youre talking about retaliation, killing seven prisoners, answering murder with murder. Craig if the alternative is answering murder with silence. David not so fast. Craig pay and promotions, fine. I dont like it, but i understand. But those black men who joined your army are my responsibility. And when they fought like heroes at fort hudson, at millikens bend, fort wegner, only to be tied up and shot, not a word came from the president of the United States. David you dont want protection. You want retaliation. You want revenge. Craig i want justice. David its not justice to kill a man for something he didnt do. Craig only because the prisoners youd have to shoot might be rebels. But theyre white. Is that it . David that is surely what the country will say. We knew lincoln will get to this. Now white men are to be killed. Craig are to be killed by niggers. David nevertheless, i have ordered it. Against every bit of my better judgment. Craig when . David 10 days ago. For every soldier the United States killed in violation of the laws of war, our rebel soldiers shall be executed. And for every one enslaved by the enemy, a rebel soldier will be placed in hard labor until the others shall be released. Craig i didnt know. David how more killing will lead to less, i dont know. But the army seems to agree with you. Craig can you guarantee that this policy will be carried out . David why do you doubt it . Craig because, excellency, with all due respect, you have a pension for compromise david never mind. I know what you think of me. You certainly filled your newspapers with it for all to read. But the most disheartening feature of our present situation is not the various disasters experienced by our armies and navies, but the tardy, hesitating vacillating policy of the president of the United States. Craig that is not precisely what i meant. David looks damn precise to me. And here, an administration without a policy is an administration without brains. Since while a thing is to be done, it implies a known way to do it. And he who professes his ability to do it but cannot show how it is to be done confesses his own imbecility. Craig i wasnt aware you had a subscription. David i dont. But thats hardly the way to get me to buy one. Craig i wrote that when emancipation was still a question. David now you know the answer. Did i not do what i said i would do . Craig so far as it goes. David but i did it. And no man can say that having once taken a position, i have contradicted it or retreated from it. I may go slow, and i may find roundabout ways to get where im going, but i get there. Craig and in the meantime, people suffer. David you neednt lecture me on suffering. There are dispatches on this table that would make you shudder. I read them every day. I would stop every bit of it if i could. Craig Jefferson Davis issued his order when the first colored regiments were formed. Why didnt you order retaliation the same day . David the people, the people had to accept it first. Craig that is why i have such doubts. The day they stop accepting it may be when you stop enforcing it. David mr. Douglass, i have issued my order and i expect it to be followed. If you find that tardy and hesitating, im sorry. But i can only go as far and as fast as the people of this country let me. Craig that is not leadership. David it is in a democracy. Understand something. The suffering of any soldier cuts me to the core. But there can be no progress were colored soldiers are concerned until the country feels the same way. Awful as it is, the people need to be as moved by the suffering and the gallantry of negro troops as they were of that at antietam or shiloh. Now, i did not send your volunteers into battle intending for them to be butchered afterwards. Craig but it happened. David and what it were not so. But having happened, in the cause of bringing the country along, those men at fort wegner, milligans bend, yes, i read those reports too. They became necessary sacrifices to that end. Craig so thats it . They died to make a point. David not at all. But if there is a point to be made, is that not one you yourself would make . Craig then you may keep your commission. I will give you no more necessary sacrifices until you can tell me which ones you consider unnecessary. Im sorry to have taken your time, excellency. God bless you. Paul bravo. Bravo. I mean, this is just a small taste of what the play is about, which is these two, you know, monumental historical characters in our history and their relationship. And you can see the tension between douglass and lincoln in the scene. But i think as most of us know, there was that tension throughout their lifetime, but all of you can join in and chime in here, that douglass was one of lincolns most one of lincolns biggest, um, um, supporters is probably the wrong word, but after lincoln died, douglass always and toned lincoln because he knew that lincoln was on the right side. Am i right, richard . Richard i think so. He knew that he went farther than others. I dont think he ever felt he had ever gone far enough. But relatively speaking, he did laud lincoln for as far as he went. And i think that wouldve continued. I think if lincoln had not died, i really do believe that relationship wouldve continued over the next term. I think he wouldve had douglass back. I think he wouldve asked him. You know that phrase, i keep coming back to that phrase, the stone that sharpens the knife . You know that phrase . I think of douglass as the stone that kept sharpening lincolns knife. Not that lincoln wasnt sharp to begin with, but he needed to be pushed and guided. The fact that they were both and that they did see each each other did see each other, they recognized something of themselves in the other. And thats why they were able to listen and ive thought about the scene the other day when we were talking about it. It wouldve been so easy for lincoln to say, no, im not going to see him. The most famous black man in america just showed up outside your door and ive got a line of people to see. It would have been easy to say, im not going to see him. Or brought him in and done whatever the 19th century equivalent of a photo op was. Great to see you. Glad you liked the proclamation. Have a nice day. Thanks for dropping by. But he brought him in and he listened. And it didnt mean they agreed, and it didnt mean they didnt have differences, but they respected each other enough to listen to what they had to say about where they were going. Craig i think, just revisiting your script, reading it, it strikes me that lincoln had a great way of massaging douglas shoulders so that he could relax and they could actually talk to each other. Paul i think we lost your sound. Craig am i not with you . Can you hear me . David i can hear you. Paul maybe its my we can hear you. Craig yeah, great. You know, i mean in the beginning of this play paul i need to be [indiscernible] Craig Douglass goes in there ready for a fight. But lincoln has a way of making him breathe. So they can still have the argument, but thats where the listening actually comes in, which i think is great. Richard i agree with you. I think thats what were talking about with lincolns style, his personal style. Everybody talks about, when they are talking about him, his way of disarming people, to bring you along. And i think youre right. It could have been extremely confrontational. Also, hes the president. He couldve easily said, i have no time, just go. Whats really interesting to me is after the first meeting, when all of this happened, the second meeting was actually lincoln who invited douglass. He issued the invitation because he wanted to talk to him again about what was happening in the country. And where we were going at that point a year later. So, i think he really respected douglass honesty about all of this. Because you can be surrounded by all kinds of yesmen, and douglass was going to come in and he was not going to not tell him the truth. You need to hear this and i have the credibility, slavery got me the credibility. And my life experience, what ive done in my life as Frederick Douglass, has got me the credibility to stand to you, mantoman, and have this out. Paul sorry about that. I had a little technical difficulty, but i could hear your conversation, i actually like you guys having a conversation without me. Craig, talk a little about, and this is actually a question for both you and david, but ill start with craig, sort of playing such a historic figure. Just in general, but also playing that historic figure at fords theater. Craig well, you know, every time i step on fords theater stage, its just an amazing experience for me, just knowing the history and the fact that ive done so many roles there. Its interesting. Because i came into the process late, i learned the stuff i learned about Frederick Douglass i learned once we were up and running. I was reading in the dressing room, anything that richard would share during tech. So what i did was, i just read the play and i understood what the characters objectives were, i understood what he wanted, but listening. I guess what im saying is i played richards Frederick Douglass. I didnt come in with an idea of who Frederick Douglass was because i didnt do the research about all of that. So what i did was i read the script and i built the character from there. Paul david, whats your take . Obviously, slightly different because we know that lincoln, you know, obviously lincoln and fords theater is several levels up there. And you had played lincoln at fords theater before. But im sure every time that you think about lincoln or speak lincolns words at fords, it must have a sort of unique resonance. David yes, a unique resonance that i get very emotional about. So i have to pull in my emotions, especially when i walked out on that stage. I look up where the lincolns were seated and i think about that theater. I think about those times. I think about how long it took fords theatre, and it wasnt their doing, to bring lincoln to the stage in a play, such as richards. And speaking of richards play, and this is all ill say, having reread it again a couple times, it is so vital to and it speaks, in its way to what this country is going through. Paul richard, why dont you tell us a little about that now . I know that we this is obviously a session that we had scheduled some time ago, before all of the events of the last 10 days or so. But, i mean, here we are, talking about a play about these two extraordinary figures, these powerful, you know, figures, and clearly black and white, lincoln and douglass on stage, the power it had. Tell us, richard, about what that play meant in that respect eight years ago, and how it resonates today still, or how it speaks to the issues were dealing with today. Richard thats a tough one because i i get weary, i guess its just me, but i get weary of plays that try to speak to a time. And im sure its just me. I dont think theater is necessarily a very good newspaper, unless its designed to be that. David thats not what your play ever intended to do. Thats whats ironic about the whole thing. Richard exactly. I think you write the word thats responding to that point in time if i wrote it now, it would be different because of the times and because of me. To get inside of it. And hopefully it works in the time it was written. Hopefully it works later on, or it may not. I think there were certainly forces the forces were seeing now are not new. They did not just happen a week ago. Clearly. This has been going on for a very, very long time. And those things were present, albeit in different forms, ten years ago. And there were different people involved, so on and so forth. But when i was reading douglass, especially, douglass wrote volumes. His writing is some of the most amazing writing youll ever read about this country. What caught me then about what does exist, it takes on different forms and reactions. They both love this country very much. They were both patriots in the best sense of the word. They differed as to what needed to be done about that, but lincoln loved this country and he felt responsible for the whole country. He said, i was born in kentucky, i was raised in indiana, i live in illinois, and now its my responsibility to take care of all the people of the United States. And Frederick Douglass said, every stripe on my back testifies of my right to be here. The grave of my child testifies of my right to be here. We love this country, we believe this country, and we will not leaving this country. Lines from the play. So were in this. Now what do we do . How do we solve this . That question was interesting and vital to me 10 years ago. And its interesting and vital to me now. Its because the confluence of things that has happened since. But the question still remains. Were in a crisis. How do we get out of it . And what is the country we want when were done . That is what both lincoln and douglass had visions of that. How do we make that happen . How do we make that happen . Paul craig, anything to add . Craig yeah, which is why the play resonates today. Because, as i was reading it again, i was thinking i think people would enjoy seeing this, seeing these two men together, these two patriots, not brothers in arms, but brothers in thought, in vision, in faith, all of the stuff, trying to figure this stuff out. Look down the street. People are trying to figure it out. Its so interesting, the way lincoln explains politics to douglass is fascinating, you know . Sure, you want me to just do it, but is not that easy. And the way that he lays it out, its the type of things that i think are happening, are questions that people have on their minds right now. I often think of this play as a love story. [laughter] you know, because whats so great about your piece is that its not two stuffy men going, blah blah blah. I think theyre enjoying being in each others face. That is why we stay. We want to see them be in that space together. Richard i think so, too. Paul you have teased it up enough, so now i have to say it. Our audience, folks that are listening out there, have said that these are two of my favorite fords theater actors, and i dont think theyre talking about myself and richard. So, they are looking forward to hearing and seeing you guys again, and i think one of the things weve been talking about is a virtual reading of necessary sacrifices. Its very interesting that the people on screen today have each, individually and separately, over the last two months, written to me and said, you know, all these people are doing virtual readings. Wouldnt it make sense to do a virtual reading of necessary sacrifices . So, i dont think weve got the schedule set yet, but i think we all agree, all of us here, agree to do a reading of necessary sacrifices, so stay tuned for that, there will be more details coming up as we get that scheduled and get these two amazing actors to at least voice these phenomenal characters again, even if we cant get back to our theater here. Were getting close to our sort of final 15 minutes here. And i know weve got folks out there who are hoping well ask questions. But let me ask richard a question here, just going back to sort of the concept of, what a great premise. I think everyone would like two of the greatest figures in history, and we know they had two meetings at the white house, very historical setting, and we dont know what they said. So richard, in looking at that, clearly you did youre not going to have either of these two guys go into this meeting and Say Something they wouldnt have said somewhere else. But yet so tell us a little bit about that process and how many scenes of the two meetings did you write, toss out, write, toss out, go one direction, and then change course . Richard i dont know the answer to that. I think by the time we opened, it was maybe on draft nine, i want to say . I do know i keep everything. Everything is in my files, so i have the original idea. Then i have the abysmal draft. Then i have the appalling draft. Then i have the incompetent draft. Then i have the really awful draft. Then i have the bad draft, which we do a reading of. Then i have the worst draft. Then we eventually get to rehearsal. So i dont actually know. For the writers out there, i dont think plays are written. I think theyre grown. They can grow them. And however long it takes to grow it is what your process is. So in this case, i had to start with Historical Research, certainly. I had to read about lincoln and douglass. But also reading them, reading lincolns letters, his speeches. Reading douglass amazing autobiographies, his newspaper articles. His passion to editorials, the speeches he gave, he was a luminous writer. Partly to get the history, partly to get their thoughts, partly to get what they might say, what they would pull out of the rhetorical pocket, partly to get the cadences. Partly to get how they would sound. Lincoln was harder because most people talked about lincoln. What you got from him was his speeches and letters. Douglass, i had everything. So Frederick Douglass was easier to write, i had so much to pair down. But i think it was a process of secretion, beginning and growing it out and shaping it as it happened, and i would be really remiss if i didnt mention Jennifer Nelson in this, who directed the piece. Because i think jennifer was really on me about keeping it balanced. This is the great thing about a director. Actors are in the moment and actors are the greatest resource you have because theyre in it and they will tell you when its working and tell you when its not, and sometimes they will say, what if i do this . And they may save your bacon in that moment and you steal it. But the director has the overall vision. And the number of times jennifer kept me focused and balanced in this piece, so as craig said, it had that quality of two guys face to face was crucial. So, when i say it was a year, it sounds like a long time to people, but a year is very little time in the theater, to go from zero to opening time. Its a lot of work. Its a lot of fun work. Paul listen richard, you brought something up and everyone on the screen here knows, the great thing about the theater is that it is a collaborative process. And people have input into it, maybe some playwrights are more collaborative than others. But i know a famous playwright once said to me, if you dont want to collaborate, write a novel. So, this is a collaborative process. But im curious if you, either david or craig, in recognizing craig, you swooped in at the 11th hour. But david or craig or jennifer weighed in and sort of said, this doesnt sound right. Or did david say, i dont know if lincoln would say that . Did you get any of that during the process . David, you might want to check and make sure his facts are right on this. Richard yeah, i did. I got that. And to go back to an earlier point, this is one of the things i lost by having craig come in late is i never got that process with him. So when he says i did richards Frederick Douglass, im thinking, i wouldve liked to see craigs Frederick Douglass in the script. I didnt have that. David, on the other hand, because hes played lincoln, he knows lincoln down to his bones, would be flexible with lines and cadences and intonations and movements and certain things. Because hes doing it and its organic, it almost always felt right. So there are times certainly as a writer, you say, nah, i think well stick with my line on that one. But if youre smart, youll listen to your actors because they will tell you when things are working. If they dont tell you directly, youll hear it. You listen to them and follow them. At the end of the day, opening night, im gone. There is nobody more useless than a playwright. After tech, actually, were useless. But the actors are up there every night and they need to be able to do it on their terms. Thats what you have to give them. Paul david, anything to add to that . You never got a writing credit on this, so i guess your additions werent excessive. David i did not deserve any kind of a writing credit. Maybe i needed editing, a little. [laughter] edited a little. No, i just when craig came in, and it was such a whirlwind, you know, when he came in and we had to just we had to do it. He already had to follow the outline that had been laid out on the stage, as far as the blocking was concerned or whatever. He was just i cant imagine. He was wonderful, absolutely wonderful, and its been a pleasure all these years when we get to see each other. But it all came out of richards play. And i think in the title, necessary sacrifices, sometimes we all have to make necessary sacrifices for the good of the whole. And thats this play speaks to that. Paul thank you, david. Craig, i want to ask you something because were talking about the sort of input of the actor and the rehearsal process. Obviously, you didnt have that with this. But sort of a twopart question, craig. One is, at what point obviously you were thrown into this, the whirlwind. I have a vivid memory of backstage before one of the first preview performances, and you and i were chatting, and i was just thanking you profusely for saving the production and coming in, and you were looking at me you are probably looking way through me, thinking, i got to think about my blocking, i gotta think about my movement, i got to think about my script, thank you so much, and sort of went on. But at what point in the process did you sort of and it might have been a week in that you started to sort of seep into the character and really feel douglass . And then second part of that is, you know, since you missed the beginning rehearsal process, at some point, either during the run or after the run, did you do more reading, research, or anything on douglass just out of pure fascination with this amazing man . Craig to answer the second question first, yes i did. Like i said in the beginning, i learned about him subsequently, like during the run, i would learn about him. Besides the stuff i already knew, you know. But its interesting. The whole process was a rehearsal for me. So, you know, the first was that preview where i was on book. And then jennifer says to me one day, after four days or something, do you want to put the book down . I thought, no. Its working, Everybody Loves it but once i put the book down, then i started to breathe into it. And with every performance, it got more comfortable and i could play. David and i could play. And if things went awry, because it was just the two of us, we knew how to get back on track. I dont think there was ever a train wreck. There might have been times where we had to massage richards script a little bit to get back on track, so in essence, yes. I think by the end of the run, i was ready to open. Paul it was the end of the run and now youre like, lets do three more weeks. Craig right. [laughter] paul well, richard, i know youre going to give us a short reading from the end of the play. And i thought this was a good time, before we run out of time, id like to hear you do that. And well come back after you do this reading and maybe followup with short questions to end our session. But why dont you give us a reading of the end of the play . I know you have it here. Richard i suppose this is my valedictory, because its freds valedictory. I call him fred in the play. Basically, we know lincoln dies and things happen. And before that happens, the very last meeting, douglass asks lincoln, what are you going to do when this is over with . Lincoln mentions all the things he wants to do when hes done with being president. And he asks douglas what he wants to do. And he said, that depends, mr. President. On what . On you. No, on us, mr. Douglass. So at the end of the play, douglass is left alone on the stage and he says this. As for my friend lincoln, although i had great cause to despise him, in the end, i found reason to believe in him because he was neither a moses or a pharaoh, but simply a good man, who learned wisdom from a war, and wouldve learned it from peace and were he living would go with those who go farthest in equality. This is not an ending. The forms of my bondage follow be still. Better angels have arisen. Too many cords remain untouched or out of tune. Weve begun to be asked to remember with equal admiration those who fought for slavery and those who fought for liberty and justice. I would not strike the fallen, but that my tongue cling to the roof of my mouth if ever i forget the difference. Thus i say, as i believe he would say, judge no one by their complexion, but by their loyalty. Wherever there is a patriot, north or south, white or black, man or woman, fighting for all, hail them. As a citizen, as kin, as a brother or sister beloved. The unfinished work remains. The sacrifices must be ours, upon us. David that says it all right there. That last line. Paul so, i think thats what a brilliant ending, and i sort of remember the play so beautifully with sort of douglass standing there at the end. Because, of course, douglass lived, what, another 40 years after lincoln died . And always, i think, reflected back on him. Theres a question that someone wrote, which im going to throw out to the group here, and its an odd question, maybe a more ponderous one for us to let go into the air beyond the telecast is, would there be an interest in a play, would it be interesting to have a play with the sort of characters of lincoln and douglass, and maybe its the ghost of lincoln and douglass, looking back at america and whats happened in the last 150 years . You know, god only knows what lincoln and douglass would say looking at whats going on today, but it would be interesting. I wonder if that i throw that out there for the group. Is that too strange . Richard how many characters and how long . Craig [laughter] paul spoken like a good playwright. David, craig . Craig im not sure. Im not sure. There was an Old Commercial from the 1970s where a native american is on a highway and somebody drives by and throws litter at his feet, and its just a sign of him and a teardrop. And i think thats that play, you know . I think they would look back on where we are now and would be angry and saddened at opportunities lost and things that were slaves to. Even though we have the capability to achieve many great things, our own folly and our own whatever is keeping us from doing that, and i think they would be very saddened and angered by that. And i dont know what the play is after that. Maybe they have a drink. [laughter] david and you know, at the end of the day, you have to what is it . There is the word hope. So, you hope. What was his name leonard cohen. You all know leonard cohen, writer. Leonard said some things about a crack in the sunlight, or a crack in the whatever. And he said, theres something about thats the reason we have cracks, so we can let the light through. And somewhere, in people, like lincoln and douglass, they could let the light through. Paul perfect offering. There is a crack in everything. Thats how the light gets in. David thats how the light gets in. Paul what a perfect way to end this session. I just want to say thank you to Richard Hellesen david selby, and Craig Wallace for joining us today for todays cabinet conversation. And thanks to everyone for watching. [captions Copyright National cable satellite corp. 2020] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap. Org] this is American History tv, with lectures, interviews, and discussions with authors, historians, and teachers. 48 hours, all weekend, every weekend, only on cspan3. Cspan has unfiltered coverage of congress, the white house, the supreme court, and Public Policy events. You can watch cspans Public Affairs programming on television, online, or our free radio app, and be part of the conversation through cspans daily Washington Journal Program or through our social media. Cspan, created by americas Cable Television companies as a Public Service and brought to you today by your television provider. Next on American History tv, we hear about the world war ii goal when and tragic story of the uss indianapolis, which after it was torpedoed by a Japanese Submarine on july 30, 1945. The ship had just completed a secret mission, delivering parts used in the atomic bomb dropped on hiroshima, japan. Speaking at the National Archives in washington dc are lynn vincent and sara vladic, coauthors of indianapolis the true story of the worst sea disaster in u. S. Naval history and the fiftyyear fight to exonerate an innocent man. I often refer to the stories in the National Archives. We are not just a storehouse to billions of pages and miles of films that hold stories of our past
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