Transcripts For CSPAN3 Oral Histories Joan Trumpauer Mulholl

Interview with Joan Trumpauer mulholland. She recalls taking part in the 1961 freedom rides, attending tougaloo college, and serving at the Mississippi State penitentiary with other activists. This interview is part of a project on the Civil Rights Movement initiated by congress in 2009, conducted by the Smithsonian National museum of africanAmerican History and culture, the american full like american folklife center. Joan i was born in washington, d. C. And raised in arlington, virginia, basically a mile down the road in apartments, which at that point was the only place in Northern Virginia that would rent to jews. This was the early 1940s, folks had come from new york, looking for government jobs. They wanted out of the boarding houses and they can move to buckingham and that was about it. What did your dad do . Joan they had those government jobs. My father came from southwest iowa, during the depression. My folks met at the midnight shift at the post Office Building in the elevator. How romantic. [laughter] born, he waswas working for the department of in thatd continued wealth to the 1950s and then switched to the department of state but doing pretty much the same thing. My mother had worked as a secretary and became a stayathome mom, which was the custom. She came from rural georgia. What was it like growing up in arlington . In the 1940s . Joan arlington was definitely the south. South, buthe deep everything by law and custom was segregated. World,in an allwhite but with so many of my neighbors liberal newds, this york jewish outlook, one of the influences on me. Was Church Important . Joan church was a big part of my life. I wassed battalion presbyterian. Where my dad grew up, the Lutheran Church was in swedish. All those others were presbyterian so i went to the Presbyterian Church that was nearby. We memorize all these bible verses, got our goldstar if we could recite it. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, such is the kingdom of god, all that stuff. All the songs about jesus loves the little children, red and yellow, black and white. But the church was segregated by law. Of course, as soon as we left the church, we continued to be hypocrites. And that bothered me. I am sort of a literalist, for better or worse. When you were a teenager, you were still going to church . Joan all through my teenage years. Inwas race ever brought up any context, in sunday school or from the pulpit . Joan not that i remember so openly, but i was always going to the sunday evening youth fellowship. One sunday, we were told that next sunday, there would be some colored students coming to meet with us, but we were to keep this absolutely quiet. To tell our parents, our friends, anybody. And of the reasons being that the American Nazi Party was around the corner, their headquarters, and it was illegal , so the police could come, and some of the church i do not know if elders is the word for the presbyterians, but Church Leaders might be against this , and bring out another minister forth with. So we kept it quiet, and at least twice, the same group of students, organized through the had our came and standard spaghetti dinner with us. I do not remember what we talked about particularly, but this was in the throes of the county wanting to go along with brown versus board and state of was in throes of massive resistance this was in the late 1960s. I think it was so a few students would know each other across racial lines when they came. I stayed in touch with one of the girls for a while. [inaudible] joan first with white, too. Years later, i tried to track this down a bit and get back to that. It was a county gathering at the school that was first integrated, and i raised the question if anybody, could anybody fill me in on how this was organized to go did the white organized . Ministers reach out to the black community, did the black Community Reach out to the white ministers . Overhis happening all was this just us . One woman said her mother who was very sick that week k, but a week later mother was deadn. I would still like to know. One week later, emmett till was murdered. Age. S about your for black activists in the south, this was a turning point, something they would never forget and made them realize how vulnerable they were and how fraught the system was. Did that have any impact appear . Up here . Were you aware of it . Joan i was aware of it, but it was not a big deal. It was the same thing in indiana. I remember them saying oh, thats too bad. Grandmas in georgia, there would be discussions. The concept of lynching was not shocking, because there were these big debates as to whether leo frank was innocent or guilty. The lynch mob had gone by my house, as i understood it. So lynching was not breaking news. What was it like at grandmas when you were visiting . Joan oh, it was wonderful. Fresh biscuits at every meal and grits and snap beans. Go down fore would two weeks. My mother would load the girls in the car, me and my sister, and strive down. Threeday trip, back before the interstate. Where did your grandmother live in georgia . A, which at that point was a company town out in , which at oconee that point was a company town out in the swamp. Not the county. I know the area. What was it that motivated you to become involved in civil justs struggles, that were now beginning, in the late 1950s, was beginning to attract attention . You had Martin Luther king and the montgomery bus boycott, you had the little rock nine. Well, goingoan back with memorizing the bible verses, and the declaration of independence in high school, we had to memorize it. Once when i was down at grandmas i must have been about 10 out withirl i hung derek me to go walk through andertown, we called it, looked at the disparity. Walkinghese white girls down the road, but i can see the difference with my own eyes between the black school and the white school, which was a new brick building. That really struck me. Girl next tol, the me in spanish class had been in one of those jurisdictions in virginia where the schools were closed, so instead of enjoying her senior year, she was sent to live with relatives of somebody 11th grade a year late. Seeing the effects of segregation and knowing the hypocrisy of it, of what our founding documents and the bible that we as a southerner needed to change. Had my chance to help do something, i would seize it. You are anticipating my next question, which is a broader question senators were the first white people to seek out young black activists, southerners were the first white people to seek out young black activists. Why do you think it was southerners first in the movement rather than northerners . Joan because those yankees up there were looking down their nose at us. [laughs] joan we were at home. We were working at home on what we saw was our own problem. Locally,bally, act those things came in later. Then, we were very local oriented, particularly in the south. We had to be able to place people, nowhere you were from, who you were related to, very community minded. A trip to the next state was a big deal, for some people, to the next county. I think it was natural, between our Community Orientation and our deep religious convictions. One woman said it was through the Methodist Church that she went outofstate, involved in those activities. The for me, it was presbyterians. Through my presbyterian youth group, then i went to Duke University because my mother wanted me to go to a small school that was safely segregated. It was a small Church School in the north, may be ohio, but i had gone to such a massive high school that was totally oh crowded with growing suburbia s, i wanted1950 a small place where you were known, but not lost in the mob. Mother was afraid of integration , a product of our environment. She was all about status. So i went to duke. But it was there, after the sit in scott going in durham, that our presbyterian chaplain and i was going to the sunday , andng meetings told us this is like deja vu, that some students from North Carolina college doing decisions would be coming over. Next week. Spread the word unless it is someone you think would really wants to come, because if the administration could lock us out, the police could show up, and theseal rowdies, welldressed, well spoken students came over and explained all about the sit in, legally and morally, and invited us to join them. That was my moment. Yeah. Before we get to that, what were your First Impressions . Tell us what duke was like in 1959. Joan all about status. I do not know if it was literally dripping iv, but it had that impression. Luck of the draw, i had a roommate from new york. Not from the city, but out that way. We decided we didnt want to rush, into sororities. That was a big decision. Joan the first or second week, you are on campus, you do not have your bearings, and they had rush, where you go and sit and get picked over by these girls you dont know to see if you were suitable for an organization that you really didnt know either, and it cost money. The international club, which was basically graduate school guys, was having a Potluck Party the same night, and we thought oh, graduate guys. This sounds much better. We went to that. Duke got upset with this. They sent counselors around to see if we were unhappy, was it a financial situation because you didnt rush . Joan because we didnt rush. I heard it had never happened in the history of the university before, which made me all the more determined not to do it. But graduate school guys were good news. So there was a lot of status . Joan it was all about status. Just what mom wanted. Sit in. It started when you were just a freshman. Tell us about your involvement and the beginning of that . They invited us to join, a a andraduate guys, and luci icon, fortunately we were roommates, we went down and we werenately roommates, we went down to the picket line. When it was time, we joined them at the lunch counter. I do not have strong memories of it now, the details, but twice in jail, and it was were you nervous . This is a big change for the way you were brought up. Joan i dont remember being nervous as such, but in jail it was fairly quick, the one time, and you were surrounded by fellow citizen folks. Where were you when you were arrested . Joan i think it was crest . Woolworths. And you win 10, and integrated group. Went in, an integrated group. The white folks sat down first there were so few white folks that barely took any and in jail, that is where it had the potential of being scary, that you were in the prison with the white prisoners or by yourself. After we got out of jail and were talking about it with the black students, they had a pretty good time because durham was not the deep south. It. Made the most of they realized the white students did not have quite such a good time and they came up with a plan. An awful lot of us had native ancestry or claims to, blackandwhite periods in northern carolina state law black and white. It did not say anything about men others and win and others, women others, it just said others. We decided to go. If you bail, insist on getting locked up together in one cell and party all weekend, and make bail monday morning to get to class. Did it work . Joan no. The attorney said it was frivolous, but it was a great plan. I understand that we would have been expelled, the administration of duke wanted to kick us out and called us over to the deans office when we got back from jail. There was a note in our mailbox saying to call the dean, and she wanted us to report to her office five hours after dark, the only light on in the building. To this walk over administrative building. We came in and she locked the door and put the key in her pocket. And we had quite a little discussion. Had we called our parents of course, neither one of us had. Theres the phone. Outously we werent getting , because she had the key in her pocket, until he made the phone call we made the phone call. I understand since then, we would have been expelled, but the professional association of professors, they intervened. I remember telling one of my english teachers, my english washer that the city and coming up and if i were in jail and he gave a pop quiz, could i make it up, because he was good at pop quizzes. He laughed and smiled and said no, i will just run it down to the jail. You cant cheat in there. Thats wonderful. Joan we had support from the faculty, just not from the administration. Does duke have a separate mens and Womens College . Joan yes, separate campuses. So it was that you were very much isolated there. Joan there was a bus that ran between campuses, and you might particularly as a freshman crossover to the other campus for a class or a special event in the chapel or because the mens campus has a chapel. What was the phone call like to your mother . Joan it couldnt have been good. I dont remember much about it. You have spoken openly about your mother being a segregationist. Joan yes. A product of her environment. A friend thought i had been sucked up into a cult. You needed to be debriefed or deprogrammed. Joan or brainwashed out of it, yeah. It went against everything that she had grown up believing in. I can say that a little more generously now than i could have been. Was their tension at home when you went home . Oh yeah, lots of tension. I dont think things got on a normal footing, never really normal, until the grandkids came along. How did your dad react to all this . Ian first and foremost, think he thought his darling daughter was going to get killed, and he was a government bureaucrat, so he thought to work from the top down brown versus board, rather than take to the streets. With a demonstration, you might have an effect very locally but there was all the rest of the area that took the Supreme Court decision. You had your freshman year at duke. Where were you in the fall . Joan i dropped out. In fall, i was out of school, working on the hill. Talk about that. Fall, i was living in d. C. On your own. Joan on my own. I had gotten back to government job i had had, which was a had making money to go to college down at the fcc. That ran out and i ended up getting a job with some wisconsin senator very menial office work, and senator is senator engle eventually. Then i joined up with the howard group. That is what i want you to talk about a little bit more. For that time, this was probably the most militant group of activists that were around. Did you just walk onto the howard campus . I was leaving North Carolina, some of the students at ncc said, we have not heard anything from howard since the ing at easter break, so go up to howard and find out what is happening. If they are not doing anything, get something going. Of course, i had no clue where howard really was, growing up in but i got there and was Walking Around campus, looking lost and asking people, stopping them, if they knew anybody who was involved with the demonstrations or sedans or ort have you sitins what have you. I understand they were having sit for the pickets at down at downtownkets woolworths or whatever. But they were planning to turn out to go to arlington, because i think some diplomatic sorts had been denied service. Well, i was from arlington. I had a little bit of experience sitins and jails, so i was with a group. So we went out to arlington, sat in, the American Nazi Party showed up and went to the local high school and encouraged local kids to come down to where we were. Who are the activists you remember . Joan well, the main leaders were two older guys, mid20s maybe, Lawrence Henry and Paul Dietrich. Paul was white, and Michael Proctor went on to be a doctor. Thursday on diamond theres deon diamond, who still around. Went on to become a fulltime activist. Joan those are the same ones i remember. Was stokely there . Down with ay came group from new york to see what was happening with the students in d. C. , but he was not howard student until that fall. You were there before stokely came and others. Joan it was not a particularly militant group yet. And it was integrated . Joan it was integrated. I have a whole list of them upstairs, somebody is writing a book. Someone asked who is that who is at those counters and i took out the clippings and wrote them all down. We sat down one place, the drug fair, which is now gone, and we went down to. They closed down the counters but did not ask the police to arrest us or anything. Crowds were coming in because school was letting out. I havent researched this or know, but these were locally fair,peoples and drug they were the same liberal, new york, jewish connections, the founders of them, the owners. Specifically drug fair. They were not going to break the state law by integrating. They were waiting to be forced. After about a week of demonstrations, including down at woolworths, right near where we ate, we only had a couple department stores, some locally owned change, new york, jewish. We had a cooling off period, a negotiating period that lasted about a week, and low and behold they were open. In retrospect, i think they were just waiting to have their hand forced. They started serving everybody, and the police said well, we are not going to take initiative to enforce segregation laws if they wanted to serve us. You were from arlington. Did anyone recognize you . Didnt make the newspaper that a white girl was stirring up trouble . In thehere were pictures paper, but i dont think anyone really connected this with my family had moved out to Fairfax County by then, and if anyone connect this, i did not hear about it. Next happened . Ink about the whole period your life. The lunch counters are integrated. The school year is over. What are we going to do now. Lets take it to the beach. The beaches were a bit of a drive, you could not commute back and forth so easily, so echo became the next one. I was not in the planning of things, i showed up after work. What was that . Joan the disney of its day. An an Amusement Park Joan Trumpauer<\/a> mulholland. She recalls taking part in the 1961 freedom rides, attending tougaloo college, and serving at the Mississippi State<\/a> penitentiary with other activists. This interview is part of a project on the Civil Rights Movement<\/a> initiated by congress in 2009, conducted by the Smithsonian National<\/a> museum of africanAmerican History<\/a> and culture, the american full like american folklife center. Joan i was born in washington, d. C. And raised in arlington, virginia, basically a mile down the road in apartments, which at that point was the only place in Northern Virginia<\/a> that would rent to jews. This was the early 1940s, folks had come from new york, looking for government jobs. They wanted out of the boarding houses and they can move to buckingham and that was about it. What did your dad do . Joan they had those government jobs. My father came from southwest iowa, during the depression. My folks met at the midnight shift at the post Office Building<\/a> in the elevator. How romantic. [laughter] born, he waswas working for the department of in thatd continued wealth to the 1950s and then switched to the department of state but doing pretty much the same thing. My mother had worked as a secretary and became a stayathome mom, which was the custom. She came from rural georgia. What was it like growing up in arlington . In the 1940s . Joan arlington was definitely the south. South, buthe deep everything by law and custom was segregated. World,in an allwhite but with so many of my neighbors liberal newds, this york jewish outlook, one of the influences on me. Was Church Important<\/a> . Joan church was a big part of my life. I wassed battalion presbyterian. Where my dad grew up, the Lutheran Church<\/a> was in swedish. All those others were presbyterian so i went to the Presbyterian Church<\/a> that was nearby. We memorize all these bible verses, got our goldstar if we could recite it. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, such is the kingdom of god, all that stuff. All the songs about jesus loves the little children, red and yellow, black and white. But the church was segregated by law. Of course, as soon as we left the church, we continued to be hypocrites. And that bothered me. I am sort of a literalist, for better or worse. When you were a teenager, you were still going to church . Joan all through my teenage years. Inwas race ever brought up any context, in sunday school or from the pulpit . Joan not that i remember so openly, but i was always going to the sunday evening youth fellowship. One sunday, we were told that next sunday, there would be some colored students coming to meet with us, but we were to keep this absolutely quiet. To tell our parents, our friends, anybody. And of the reasons being that the American Nazi Party<\/a> was around the corner, their headquarters, and it was illegal , so the police could come, and some of the church i do not know if elders is the word for the presbyterians, but Church Leaders<\/a> might be against this , and bring out another minister forth with. So we kept it quiet, and at least twice, the same group of students, organized through the had our came and standard spaghetti dinner with us. I do not remember what we talked about particularly, but this was in the throes of the county wanting to go along with brown versus board and state of was in throes of massive resistance this was in the late 1960s. I think it was so a few students would know each other across racial lines when they came. I stayed in touch with one of the girls for a while. [inaudible] joan first with white, too. Years later, i tried to track this down a bit and get back to that. It was a county gathering at the school that was first integrated, and i raised the question if anybody, could anybody fill me in on how this was organized to go did the white organized . Ministers reach out to the black community, did the black Community Reach<\/a> out to the white ministers . Overhis happening all was this just us . One woman said her mother who was very sick that week k, but a week later mother was deadn. I would still like to know. One week later, emmett till was murdered. Age. S about your for black activists in the south, this was a turning point, something they would never forget and made them realize how vulnerable they were and how fraught the system was. Did that have any impact appear . Up here . Were you aware of it . Joan i was aware of it, but it was not a big deal. It was the same thing in indiana. I remember them saying oh, thats too bad. Grandmas in georgia, there would be discussions. The concept of lynching was not shocking, because there were these big debates as to whether leo frank was innocent or guilty. The lynch mob had gone by my house, as i understood it. So lynching was not breaking news. What was it like at grandmas when you were visiting . Joan oh, it was wonderful. Fresh biscuits at every meal and grits and snap beans. Go down fore would two weeks. My mother would load the girls in the car, me and my sister, and strive down. Threeday trip, back before the interstate. Where did your grandmother live in georgia . A, which at that point was a company town out in , which at oconee that point was a company town out in the swamp. Not the county. I know the area. What was it that motivated you to become involved in civil justs struggles, that were now beginning, in the late 1950s, was beginning to attract attention . You had Martin Luther<\/a> king and the montgomery bus boycott, you had the little rock nine. Well, goingoan back with memorizing the bible verses, and the declaration of independence in high school, we had to memorize it. Once when i was down at grandmas i must have been about 10 out withirl i hung derek me to go walk through andertown, we called it, looked at the disparity. Walkinghese white girls down the road, but i can see the difference with my own eyes between the black school and the white school, which was a new brick building. That really struck me. Girl next tol, the me in spanish class had been in one of those jurisdictions in virginia where the schools were closed, so instead of enjoying her senior year, she was sent to live with relatives of somebody 11th grade a year late. Seeing the effects of segregation and knowing the hypocrisy of it, of what our founding documents and the bible that we as a southerner needed to change. Had my chance to help do something, i would seize it. You are anticipating my next question, which is a broader question senators were the first white people to seek out young black activists, southerners were the first white people to seek out young black activists. Why do you think it was southerners first in the movement rather than northerners . Joan because those yankees up there were looking down their nose at us. [laughs] joan we were at home. We were working at home on what we saw was our own problem. Locally,bally, act those things came in later. Then, we were very local oriented, particularly in the south. We had to be able to place people, nowhere you were from, who you were related to, very community minded. A trip to the next state was a big deal, for some people, to the next county. I think it was natural, between our Community Orientation<\/a> and our deep religious convictions. One woman said it was through the Methodist Church<\/a> that she went outofstate, involved in those activities. The for me, it was presbyterians. Through my presbyterian youth group, then i went to Duke University<\/a> because my mother wanted me to go to a small school that was safely segregated. It was a small Church School<\/a> in the north, may be ohio, but i had gone to such a massive high school that was totally oh crowded with growing suburbia s, i wanted1950 a small place where you were known, but not lost in the mob. Mother was afraid of integration , a product of our environment. She was all about status. So i went to duke. But it was there, after the sit in scott going in durham, that our presbyterian chaplain and i was going to the sunday , andng meetings told us this is like deja vu, that some students from North Carolina<\/a> college doing decisions would be coming over. Next week. Spread the word unless it is someone you think would really wants to come, because if the administration could lock us out, the police could show up, and theseal rowdies, welldressed, well spoken students came over and explained all about the sit in, legally and morally, and invited us to join them. That was my moment. Yeah. Before we get to that, what were your First Impressions<\/a> . Tell us what duke was like in 1959. Joan all about status. I do not know if it was literally dripping iv, but it had that impression. Luck of the draw, i had a roommate from new york. Not from the city, but out that way. We decided we didnt want to rush, into sororities. That was a big decision. Joan the first or second week, you are on campus, you do not have your bearings, and they had rush, where you go and sit and get picked over by these girls you dont know to see if you were suitable for an organization that you really didnt know either, and it cost money. The international club, which was basically graduate school guys, was having a Potluck Party<\/a> the same night, and we thought oh, graduate guys. This sounds much better. We went to that. Duke got upset with this. They sent counselors around to see if we were unhappy, was it a financial situation because you didnt rush . Joan because we didnt rush. I heard it had never happened in the history of the university before, which made me all the more determined not to do it. But graduate school guys were good news. So there was a lot of status . Joan it was all about status. Just what mom wanted. Sit in. It started when you were just a freshman. Tell us about your involvement and the beginning of that . They invited us to join, a a andraduate guys, and luci icon, fortunately we were roommates, we went down and we werenately roommates, we went down to the picket line. When it was time, we joined them at the lunch counter. I do not have strong memories of it now, the details, but twice in jail, and it was were you nervous . This is a big change for the way you were brought up. Joan i dont remember being nervous as such, but in jail it was fairly quick, the one time, and you were surrounded by fellow citizen folks. Where were you when you were arrested . Joan i think it was crest . Woolworths. And you win 10, and integrated group. Went in, an integrated group. The white folks sat down first there were so few white folks that barely took any and in jail, that is where it had the potential of being scary, that you were in the prison with the white prisoners or by yourself. After we got out of jail and were talking about it with the black students, they had a pretty good time because durham was not the deep south. It. Made the most of they realized the white students did not have quite such a good time and they came up with a plan. An awful lot of us had native ancestry or claims to, blackandwhite periods in northern carolina state law black and white. It did not say anything about men others and win and others, women others, it just said others. We decided to go. If you bail, insist on getting locked up together in one cell and party all weekend, and make bail monday morning to get to class. Did it work . Joan no. The attorney said it was frivolous, but it was a great plan. I understand that we would have been expelled, the administration of duke wanted to kick us out and called us over to the deans office when we got back from jail. There was a note in our mailbox saying to call the dean, and she wanted us to report to her office five hours after dark, the only light on in the building. To this walk over administrative building. We came in and she locked the door and put the key in her pocket. And we had quite a little discussion. Had we called our parents of course, neither one of us had. Theres the phone. Outously we werent getting , because she had the key in her pocket, until he made the phone call we made the phone call. I understand since then, we would have been expelled, but the professional association of professors, they intervened. I remember telling one of my english teachers, my english washer that the city and coming up and if i were in jail and he gave a pop quiz, could i make it up, because he was good at pop quizzes. He laughed and smiled and said no, i will just run it down to the jail. You cant cheat in there. Thats wonderful. Joan we had support from the faculty, just not from the administration. Does duke have a separate mens and Womens College<\/a> . Joan yes, separate campuses. So it was that you were very much isolated there. Joan there was a bus that ran between campuses, and you might particularly as a freshman crossover to the other campus for a class or a special event in the chapel or because the mens campus has a chapel. What was the phone call like to your mother . Joan it couldnt have been good. I dont remember much about it. You have spoken openly about your mother being a segregationist. Joan yes. A product of her environment. A friend thought i had been sucked up into a cult. You needed to be debriefed or deprogrammed. Joan or brainwashed out of it, yeah. It went against everything that she had grown up believing in. I can say that a little more generously now than i could have been. Was their tension at home when you went home . Oh yeah, lots of tension. I dont think things got on a normal footing, never really normal, until the grandkids came along. How did your dad react to all this . Ian first and foremost, think he thought his darling daughter was going to get killed, and he was a government bureaucrat, so he thought to work from the top down brown versus board, rather than take to the streets. With a demonstration, you might have an effect very locally but there was all the rest of the area that took the Supreme Court<\/a> decision. You had your freshman year at duke. Where were you in the fall . Joan i dropped out. In fall, i was out of school, working on the hill. Talk about that. Fall, i was living in d. C. On your own. Joan on my own. I had gotten back to government job i had had, which was a had making money to go to college down at the fcc. That ran out and i ended up getting a job with some wisconsin senator very menial office work, and senator is senator engle eventually. Then i joined up with the howard group. That is what i want you to talk about a little bit more. For that time, this was probably the most militant group of activists that were around. Did you just walk onto the howard campus . I was leaving North Carolina<\/a>, some of the students at ncc said, we have not heard anything from howard since the ing at easter break, so go up to howard and find out what is happening. If they are not doing anything, get something going. Of course, i had no clue where howard really was, growing up in but i got there and was Walking Around<\/a> campus, looking lost and asking people, stopping them, if they knew anybody who was involved with the demonstrations or sedans or ort have you sitins what have you. I understand they were having sit for the pickets at down at downtownkets woolworths or whatever. But they were planning to turn out to go to arlington, because i think some diplomatic sorts had been denied service. Well, i was from arlington. I had a little bit of experience sitins and jails, so i was with a group. So we went out to arlington, sat in, the American Nazi Party<\/a> showed up and went to the local high school and encouraged local kids to come down to where we were. Who are the activists you remember . Joan well, the main leaders were two older guys, mid20s maybe, Lawrence Henry<\/a> and Paul Dietrich<\/a>. Paul was white, and Michael Proctor<\/a> went on to be a doctor. Thursday on diamond theres deon diamond, who still around. Went on to become a fulltime activist. Joan those are the same ones i remember. Was stokely there . Down with ay came group from new york to see what was happening with the students in d. C. , but he was not howard student until that fall. You were there before stokely came and others. Joan it was not a particularly militant group yet. And it was integrated . Joan it was integrated. I have a whole list of them upstairs, somebody is writing a book. Someone asked who is that who is at those counters and i took out the clippings and wrote them all down. We sat down one place, the drug fair, which is now gone, and we went down to. They closed down the counters but did not ask the police to arrest us or anything. Crowds were coming in because school was letting out. I havent researched this or know, but these were locally fair,peoples and drug they were the same liberal, new york, jewish connections, the founders of them, the owners. Specifically drug fair. They were not going to break the state law by integrating. They were waiting to be forced. After about a week of demonstrations, including down at woolworths, right near where we ate, we only had a couple department stores, some locally owned change, new york, jewish. We had a cooling off period, a negotiating period that lasted about a week, and low and behold they were open. In retrospect, i think they were just waiting to have their hand forced. They started serving everybody, and the police said well, we are not going to take initiative to enforce segregation laws if they wanted to serve us. You were from arlington. Did anyone recognize you . Didnt make the newspaper that a white girl was stirring up trouble . In thehere were pictures paper, but i dont think anyone really connected this with my family had moved out to Fairfax County<\/a> by then, and if anyone connect this, i did not hear about it. Next happened . Ink about the whole period your life. The lunch counters are integrated. The school year is over. What are we going to do now. Lets take it to the beach. The beaches were a bit of a drive, you could not commute back and forth so easily, so echo became the next one. I was not in the planning of things, i showed up after work. What was that . Joan the disney of its day. An an Amusement Park<\/a> Amusement Park<\/a> White Washingtons<\/a> went to white washingtonians went to for summer fun. It was segregated. There was a little Coop Community<\/a> of the same sort of jews that had lived in buckingham and after world war ii, were buying, wanting housing. They started this community over near glenn echo in maryland. They had been pushing the county, montgomery county, the ohite kids to swim at glenn ech and the black kids into d. C. They wanted everyone to go to the same place, glenn echo. They were petitioning the county and starting to raise work on this. I do not know how much some of the folks may have been aware of this, but we all ended up at the same place. I and maybe some other folks each had individual tickets, if you wanted to ride you gave a ticket for the ride. I bought a whole bunch of tickets and handed them over to the black students, who then could go zooming through the arch and down to the merrygoround or whatever. Get arrested on the merrygoround, which does not at. A back to be this later got into the whole issue, as i understand it, of private security guards or whatever being used to enforce the state law or whatever. The use of private guards and making an arrest on this. After they were arrested, it became a summerlong picket with strong support from the community of union mates, sandwiches, picking us up on hot us to theirking i homes for a little r r, a pitstop. George Lincoln Rockwell<\/a> made it to the lunch counter with swastikas and made it to glenn a little tenset because you have folks from the world war ii concentration camps with numbers on their arms. So the police required a certain degree of separation. You had pickets and counter pickets, and occasionally somebody driving by the road there, yelling something or throwing a little something. It was pretty peaceful. What happened . Joan it closed segregated, and the next year it opened integrated. Another victory. Joan another victory, but ho, theirke glenn ec days were numbered, a small Amusement Park<\/a>. They were also running the trolley out there, the main way kids got out there. Being on the trolley was almost as exciting as the at the Amusement Park<\/a>. You frequented the park . Joan oh yeah. Once a year you got your mom to take you out there. It was one of the big events of the summer. What else . Theaterll, there was a where there was a picket line, and i think we went as far as hagerstown maybe, and out toward the eastern shore. ,ith the jailin in rock hill south carolina, the call came in to go out and join them. A bunch of them went down as a weekend support thing. We did not go for the jalen. Jailin. I was in contact with reverend college was the adult contact on that. This must have been your first action in the deep south. Joan that was the furthest south i had been at that point. Did that differ . , a were in durham and duke progressive state of North Carolina<\/a>. Suburbs of washington not as reactionary. Now you are in rock hill. Well, i did not feel, you know, terrified or anything. It was just the next step. We were sort of an oncall and i may have been i remember we visited jail, where some folks were from d. C. Frank huff was in jail, a reporter for afro. Some of our group, some folks got arrested but did not stay the whole sentence. And ive heard that i was arrested, but i think i was just i dont even remember being booked. I may have been books, but i think it might have been more of a protective custody, we are taking you in kind of thing. Or was never any trial or what have you there was never any trial or what have you. I dont remember it racially. It was predominately black. Maybe they were singling you out. Joan Paul Dietrich<\/a> may have been in on that. And i thinketing, things were on the rough sides it might have been justified as protective custody. I just dont remember. Was carmichael there . Joan i dont remember carmichael then. And you are still working on the hill while you are doing all this . Joan yes. What is interesting to me about rock hill, to draw the nash, of theiane movement is one of the people who answer the call. Like in february, january or something i would have to check. In december, the Supreme Court<\/a> had made a ruling on the facilities of interstate commerce. Then. Was in the jail foromither was down there corps. Gary, on a greyhound bus, started talking about doing something to test the supreme ruling, and the idea of the freedom ride was formed. They called for students to test the ruling, not necessarily get arrested in a strange town, but see if it could be forced. You had this thing that come out in april, diane had just been in the jail then, so when all hell alabama,se in may in things were prime from two directions for the Student Movement<\/a>. The kids who had been in the deep south, or the south with the citians to continue. It was just like you had been priming it. Ins to continue. It was like you have been priming it. Paul the trick was one of our leaders. Rich was one of our leaders. Original 13f the and john lewis was involved in person. Was a we were well aware of it. When the buses burned in anniston and there was a picture of hank standing outside the nag was just as quick out of the chute as nashville, but nashville was closer to alabama, so they got there first. Three of our guys left right john, and deon dimon. By the time they could get down there, things had moved to montgomery. They were trapped in that church , it was surrounded by everyone and the tear gas and all that, and paul called me from the basement of the church. He knew i was in an efficiency apartment and the phone was very close to the bed. It was better to call that than a dormitory at howard, where you would have to go wandering around and your two minutes would be up and he said we are trapped in the church. I cant talk, but send more people. We started sending more. s on may 4, 1961, 13 freedom riders wrote a bus through the south to test the Supreme Court<\/a> ruling. Month later, you were arrested in jackson, mississippi. We were talking about you getting the phone call from the church in montgomery, saying send more people. What happened next . Joan we started trying to get , two, to see who could go or three at a time. Actually, nag ended up sending second only to nashville in , of theof students southern Student Movement<\/a>. We were right there. By the time i went, things have gotten very routine. The kennedys had struck their bargain with the power structure. You came into jackson. What was the bargain . Joan the deal was, the kennedys did not like the bad pr worldwide, and kennedy and beushchev were going to meeting, and it was bad press and they wanted that stopped. Mississippi wanted to arrest those outside agitators. Agreed therei would be no violence like alabama, but they should arrest people on a local charge. Reach ofharged with peace, meaning we made other people feel like beating us up breach of peace, meaning we made other people feel like beating us up. You got off the train, you got off the bus, captain ray would arrest you. You all move on, move out did you hear me . You going to do it . You are under arrest, and he would get the paddy wagon. It was scripted by the time i got down there. How did you get there . Joan we flew to new orleans, a ggers. Of na in spite of what stokely wanted to do. E wilson, and a few more joined us from other places. In new orleans, we had a day or so of orientation. Not doing training, as i remember, because we were already trained. We got the train tickets and theref in jackson, and were police, there were a few rough looking characters on the platform, but that is probably true on any given day on the train platforms. There were some White College<\/a> students in the car who made a couple little remarks, but nothing you got off the train in jackson . Ann after pretty much uneventful ride. We walked into the train station, did our little does he dosido with captain ray. Did you go to the knee negro side . How were you arrested . Joan we were on the white side. We were making whoever might be hanging out waiting for us feel like hitting us. When we got to the city jail, was really struck with me it was a big step down from the paddy wagon and i was looking like this sweet young thing, and the Police Officer<\/a> automatically reached out to help me down. He would not have done it if i were black, i know that. Did he call you maam . Joan we dont want anything to yall, and he was struck by lightning oh my god, what am i doing, and jerked his hand back. But his first instinct was good. Would not have been good if i usre black, but he showed u some humanity there. It gave me some faith that it was all going to be ok in the end. Riders wereedom back, they were treated to lunch in the governors mansion. We had the black chief of police and the head of the state Highway Patrol<\/a>, all of them, barbour,. , and haley who did more than hes definitely credited with. So you were taken to the county jail . Joan no, the city jail first, with my lovely mug shot. I think i look home or in that than most of the freedom calmer in that than most of the freedom rider women because i own culture. I was at home, where is all these folks who came from the north were going into a war zone in their mind. Hostile territory. They did not feel one bit comfortable. They couldnt understand the language or know what the food was. I had to explain that. We were in the city jail until our trial. How long was that . Joan it took a few minutes. I do not know if we were overnight or not, but the trial was script it, literally scripted, literally, and then we were taken over to the county jail. Segregated,s were and the white womens cell where i was, before we had taken we were taken, it was so crowded that if you do not count the space taken up by the shower stall or the bathroom, we had three square feet of space per person. We have one person curled up in the shower stall and it dripped all night, but they needed bigger facilities. I felt so culturally isolated yankeel these girls, i had more culturally in common with the black girls in the next cell, who were southerners. Grits, blackeyed peas. My cellmatesone of that i have become good friends she isn minnesota the one that wants to go to ireland to visit her main memory of me is sitting by the wall, where i could talk to the sock girls that i was culturally separate the white girls from new york. Did you have any visitors in talk about lee collins harvey, because that is a group people should know more about. It, it wasunderstand a group of black church women, but also some white church women working on a basis in the community where nobody knew but one other person and one other cell, to support the freedom riders. Raise money, attorneys, get us things we needed. E could get a lot of things we literally made out a list shoes, tshirts, paper, sanitary product, anything we might need they got the money together for us. When it got to the cell, i finally gave my shower shoes to the Old State Capitol<\/a> museum, who displayed them until katrina came through. After we got out of jail, jailse it was still the but with a six month sentence a lot of folks got, you did not want to send six months six months there you did not want to spend six months there, so you got to bail. Stay in overnight, shower, get clean clothes i have close given to me clothes given to me. You basically had the clothes on your back that you wore when you got arrested. You did not have a bag or anything joan just an overnight case of stuff, which you had to turn over and they rifled through, so you might not get back everything. Often you had a change of it, but what in you got when you got out of jail was a little iffy. A nice meal, soft bed, shampoo, wewer it was how organized on an ongoing basis. [inaudible] one of the leading funeral parlors in town. Joan no a lot more about women power unlimited than i do you probably know a lot more about women power unlimited than i do. A manuscript was written about it that i read, so yes i do. Joan oh, i hope that gets made. I would love to know more. The focus is away from the local people and all on the people coming in from the outside, but the locals were active. Joan i met on a trip somewhere on ae arctic, probably ship, some women from jackson. Just by chance, it was open seating from the meals for the meals, no where you are where youre from. Im from mississippi oh galoo. To they were telling these people at their church that these folks are not violent, they are not breaking the law. They were very supportive verbally, and how much they may have done under the cover i dont know. But it was so nice for them to hear that what they had been saying was true, that we werent all a pack of wild eyed communists i was invited for tea passing through jackson and took them up on it. This is people coming out of the woodwork years later. And of course, the newspapers. The header men press he hetterman press. Did you read that . Joan we would get that in hinds county. The trustees would take care of us that way. You remember your trial at all . It was a quick one, wasnt it . Joan very quick, i got two months suspended, 200 fine. At akept upping it, i was medium level, and then it was up to six months, 500, which was the max. Were you thinking parson penitentiary is one of the most notorious reputations in the country. It was a cotton plantation, it was isolated in the middle of nowhere. Joan not far from where emmett till was murdered. Yes. What were you anticipating . They werent really telling us where we were going. There were rumors that we would be taken to parsons. I think some of the guys had already been taken up. But you were so isolated even in the county jail as far as who you had communication with how long were you in the county jail . Joan a couple weeks. I kept a diary hidden in my skirt. I still have it. Us, they actually took didnt say where we were going. We were loaded into the back of i guess it was a paddy wagon or a truck like paddy wagon thing, and taken up. I have heard of butons and that it was bad, the full horror of it had not reached Northern Virginia<\/a>. The scary part of the ride, aside from not knowing where you were going some girls had iard more about parson then had, was when the driver turned off the road. This was before interstates, this was a two lane, and he went back a bit where there was his house. In on us. Looking we did not know what was going to happen, so we thought we would get killed. In retrospect, he probably needed a pit and seized the moment at a friends house. But anything could have happened, and things like that did happen. You went through the gates. Joan went through the gates. Usically stripped, they gave blackandwhite striped skirts and a tshirt for a top, took our stuff and bagged it gave most of it back at the end. Then we had the vaginal exam, which was nasty. Who said theends it to us was the matron she seemed uncomfortable with it. Goodame person who im friends with now did not remember it at all. Wow. Blocked it out. Joan yeah. She knew the smell of lysol gave her the chills. This was a good 45 years after the fact, but she didnt remember, she didnt know why. She had completely blocked out the vaginal exam, but the smell still got to her. So you are put in a segregated wing. The cells are segregated, but it is one cellblock. It is one side of the wing. It could be a white cell, black cell, black cell, white cell. Segregated by section. Joan there were no guys around, but two or three white girls were in together. The next cell would be all blacks. So you had communication. Joan you had communication but you didnt see people. You heard voices. Actually, it was at the freedom i metreunion thing that this one woman, helen singleton, from california. She remembered my voice and name but had no idea what i looks like. It was like oh, wow. This is a great moment. You would go down to the cellblock for a shower, but the matron would be between you and , the cells. Ll you would zoom down it and back so you did not get to see people and connect it with a voice and name. , notre in the cellblock really having any mental image of the prison are beyond our farm beyond prison ourselves luck. We knew it was death row, but we did not know exactly where the Death Chamber<\/a> was. And cleaned out death row for you. Yes, they did. They cleaned out death row, and deed it out, and it was much cleaner and the food was a lot ied it out,nd empt and it was much cleaner and the food was a lot better than what we had in hinds county. Ically, it was a step up physically, it was a step up. In hinds county, you could scream bloody murder or even sing as a group and they would hear you on the streets of jackson. Here, as they pointed out to us, no reporters are going to get to you. So the psychological component after you go through this exam and then you are in complete isolation and at their mercy really played on a lot of minds. What was a typical day like an parsons . Joan you woke up, you got breakfast. What was breakfast. Joan i dont remember anything noteworthy. Grits, fatback, that type of thing. The one meal i really remember the food was unremarkable, but it was southern, so it was normal we had Fried Chicken<\/a> and lemonade for the fourth of july. Mississippi had not been celebrating the fourth of july for that long, plus the fireworks never got there in time anyway, leading to a great new years. They would dod Something Special<\/a> for the fourth of july, especially for us. We got coffee. Thats where i took up drinking coffee. Joan what did you do with all your spare time what did you do with all your spare time during the day . Joan reading. You could get books . Joan new testament, which led to some fussing by the jewish girls. I think they got old testaments in on that one. Made decks of cards we could mail once ant us week, and we could use the envelopes and things from our mail to make a deck of cards and play solitaire. My deck of cards i have forgotten about, but it is at the American History<\/a> museum. What were your conversations like with the women in the other cells . Joan we would be getting news if you had folks coming in, you would get the world news and what have you. From, where they went to school, routine stuff. Then we would have lectures. We would have people with expertise is one woman was a , so welassics professor would have lectures, collegelevel lectures. So you are all sitting in cells, and this voice that you cant see is educating you. Joan yes. Somebody might know a language, this language or that language, and we would be having lectures on swahili or french or whatever. We would have quiet time. This is quiet time. Joan quiet time. For a while, somebody would announce it, but we had exercise out, somebody is counting 1, 2, 3, 4, and you would be doing whatever exercises announced. How much time did you have outside of yourself . Joan twice a week you got a shower, walked down to take a shower and back. Were there toilets in your cell . Joan toilets and a washbasin. I think it was maybe 7, 8 feet long. Eight might be a stretch. And six feet across. I figured it out once, it was a little smaller than the cell Nelson Mandelas<\/a> 10 years in spent years in, and we had three or four people in it, but usually two. You had your mattress, unless you aggravated the jailers by singing and they took your mattresses away. They did that to the guys. Joan and they had bunks, these metal sheets with little holes in it that made it softer, but a little uncomfortable without the mattress, and cold. Did you thing a lot . Lot . Ng a joan oh yeah. The yankees did not sing a lot. They had a union singing, whereas we had a spiritual singing in the south. No clapping . Joan heavens no. Theyre clapping was way off. I could not carry a tune in a bucket, but they did not know how to sing. The workers would come down the cellblocks, lawyers would come down the cellblocks, accompanied by someone from the prison. Who was your lawyer . Joan it buried. Vai black lawyers ried. Local black lawyers. You had to be a member of the mississippi bar. And then there was a two hour window, maybe three hours once a week that a religious person could come. Nussbaum. Joan he is one of my heroes. He would drive up the jackson every week faithfully, and i figured the only reason he was not killed on one of those roads is because the power structure had given the word to not kill him. You could have had a rogue klansman any day take him out. Faithfullyme up every week and say, want to pray with the rabbi . Call out yourself number. He would push the button on your gate and you would go up. Happened a fews times, i remember we were standing more or less in a circle. At first we may have been sitting on benches, but we would gather around and he would start to pray. And he would be slipping in little bits of news, world news. He would switch back to hebrew, then he would slip in a little more news. And he would get to see each of us individually for a couple seconds, maybe your mother says your and then, he would get to see each of us individually for a couple of seconds and maybe, your mother says your aunt is sick, or tell my mother dadeda, and hed send out a form letter to all the families with a note at the bottom to keep this communication secret, or it may have to stop. And that was our big thrill of the week. Now, one week, a couple of catholic guys showed up, and i think they were seminarians. And freedom riders . Joan no, they came to minister to us. And you could pick between the rabbi and the seminarians. And, you know, i grew up in a jewish community, a lot of jewish playmates, and a man of god was a man of god. I wasnt going to be picky, but if we had a christian, i would favor the christian, even though i wasnt catholic. But there were no presbyterians. So, i went to pray with the catholics. Now, we had girls from jewish families who were not observant or practicing or whatever. And they had not gone to see the rabbi, because they thought that would be sort of hypocritical of them. Man, some of them were down on me for deserting the rabbi and going with the catholics. Oh, umhmm. Joan i really heard about it. I had betrayed the rabbi. Oh, i see. Joan but the rabbi and i were friends after i got out, and he was out at tougaloo a lot. Where there any acts of violence committed against you or anyone you knew . There was a girl who needed some medicine and they wouldnt give it to her. We protested on that one. But as far as knocking us around, no. The guys, i heard, have a different story. But not that i knew of then. Most people bailed out after 39 days. You didnt. Why . Joan i didnt need to, i had a two month sentence, then i had the 200 fine. Every additional day counted three dollars again. Freebie meant free room and board for the summer. I had been exited at tougaloo before the freedom rides and i figured, im in mississippi. So idea was to make it inconvenience for the state and the feds that the law would be obeyed. You saw a lot of people come and go when you where they are . Joan i heard a lot of people come and go. Cellmates get new when youre cellmates joan yeah, i would get new cellmates. If there was a big influx, there might be three, i heard up to four women in one cell. Just put the ups or mattresses the extra mattresses under the kotten. You got out Early September<\/a> . Joan Early September<\/a>, the rabbi, i remember him telling us, next week, i wont be here because it is a holy day and i have to be with my congregation. It must have been the new year. I got out that week. Ofool started the first september. We went back and checked the calendar for that year, we could figure it out. Tougaloosbeen on campus before . Joan no. Talk about what you experienced. Joan i came out and you can only leave on one day of the week, so i came out, i went to jackson andhouse in i was there for a couple days before tougaloo but this is where i got clothes provided by women power unlimited and freshened up and saw some old friends at the Freedom House<\/a>. Then we went out to tougaloo and i had applied to tougaloo in reaction to hamilton holmes had gone to georgia and driven off with lights and teargas and the picture spoke to me and my family was from georgia and relatives could have been in the crowd, so i had felt that School Integration<\/a> had to be a two way street and i would apply to historically black colleges. They may not want me, but i will reach out. Tougaloo accepted me. Somebody suggested i apply to tougaloo because there had been no Student Movement<\/a> there yet and it would be good for you to be there. There had been the tougaloo nine. Joan not when i applied. The library sitting occurred joan after i applied. Not seek out tougaloo because of his reputation, being a liberal black college . Joan no, just being black. Did you apply elsewhere . Joan somewhere in tennessee and i forget where else. I wanted a school that was accredited. Did you hear from the other school . Joan i dont think so. But on the other hand, i did not get all my mail after i left for the freedom ride. Its charter was older than the segregation laws so it was like grandfathered and its Financial Support<\/a> was from the north. You had the where children of white faculty who had been attending classes there joan i heard, yeah. You are not the first white student at tougaloo. Joan no, there had been white faculty students taking a course or two, but i dont think regularly enrolled fulltime. Charlotte phillips i think was from pennsylvania, a white girl had applied and had been accepted. She was having her semester abroad then. The first few days, the first semester, people couldnt tell us apart too well. We all looked alike. About the same height, same size, longhair, hers was a little darker, but we looked alike. That led to some interesting and confusing moments. That was not me you saw walking back into the woods with that guy. [laughter] , there were four of us in one room. What dormitory where you went . Galloway . Joan the brick one. Is that galloway . They did not know they were getting a white roommate and i was sleeping on the bed and that was surprising. But it was fine. The most amusing moment was that first night in the word had not spread and the word had not spread. They had bathrooms down the hall. Inas tiptoeing down the hall a flimsy outfit in a girl was tiptoeing and the other direction and saw me and thought i was a ghost in screamed. [laughter] word got out. True story. White flourk and ate what we called shorties. What we called shorties. There was no unpleasantness from other students. Were they curious . Joan there was curiosity and a wait and see. People were friendly enough. And the freedom riders had already been back in august, when they were called back for Court Appearance<\/a> to set trial dates. Those who had bailed. Students onof white the campus was not breaking news. The faculty was predominantly white. Joan the faculty was strongly white, probably more than 5050. There had been social science forums where white students would come out, white students that wanted to come out to tougaloo. Dr. Ernst borinski . Joan ernst borinski, yeah, down in the lab. Ze lab. Joan ze lab, which was a glorified cellar. Yeah. Joan an amazing a book needs to be written about that place. Yes, yeah. Joan but the idea of whites on campus, including students, was not altogether new. But a fulltime, enrolled living in the dormitory. Joan living in the dormitory. This was new. And one girl, an aka, said to me, well, i wasnt sure about you at first, but then i saw you had to study just as hard as we did over in the library. And so, i think, particularly when i came back the second year, i was in. I was still involved with sncc and core down, a little parttime what were doing that academic year, 19611962, in terms of Movement Activity<\/a> . It should be pointed out that tougaloo was about six miles north of downtown jackson, so it was somewhat isolated at the time. Joan to the extent we had a movement on campus, i was involved in that. I mean, whatever was happening. I was also involved in other campus activities. It wasnt just movement. But i would, i guess, on weekends or when i could, go down they had the sncc core office down on lynch street, a block or so from medgars office, and i would do secretarial work down there. It was generally well, white women with sncc did not go into the delta, did not go outside of jackson. It would be counterproductive to go get us all killed, which made sense to me. But i kept that Movement Connection<\/a> and had to get my lessons out. God help me with math and science. What were you majoring in . Joan anything that avoided math and science. I thought it was going to be sociology but it ended up being history because of that three hours of statistics. Oh, yes, yes. Joan so, i would have had a double major, except for that 3 hours. Umhmm. Do you remember any of your history professors . Joan now that youre asking me, right off the top no. Joan i can picture them but i cant recall them right now. Where they white . Joan white, yeah. The summer between your first and second year, what did you do then . Did you stayed in mississippi . Joan you asked me to dig back awful far. I think i stayed in mississippi sncc core in the office. Things were really heating up. Sncc had moved up into the delta in some students there were commuting up there. Then a movement started on with the youth chapter of the naacp. Joan that was in jackson. Our nonviolent agitation association of College People<\/a> and the acp on campus. Educating ed king was the white chaplain from vicksburg, and he was very strong on the movement. Thats why he was there. And the back bedroom, which was accessible from the back porch, was just sort of the movement room. You could use it as a study hall. His wife, jeanette, always had coffee brewing sort of just outside the room. It was also the guest bedroom if attorney kunstler was down. I remember typing up i could type as fast as he could dictate, so i was typing up legal documents as he was pacing around in his boxer shorts. [laughter] and what is happening in 1962, 1963, i really could not tell you. Yeah, and into the next year. There salter was john salter was a Political Science<\/a> professor, northern or western radical organizer, professor, and he started the North Jackson<\/a> well, he was the adult sponsor of the North Jackson<\/a> Youth Council<\/a> of the naacp. And its a small campus. His house was also a movement headquarters. If you werent over typing for a lawyer or hanging out or something at eds, you were over at johns stuffing envelopes for the boycott that got going. Were there any black faculty involved in these activities . Joan i dont remember precisely black faculty involvement, but some of them were supportive, i feel. I couldnt call names unless i got out a yearbook and i think Michael Brown<\/a> had borrowed my yearbooks. They keep passing around. I asked because when we were there, it was basically the white faculty who were the activists in the black faculty, they were doing other things in town, but they did not have that kind of relationship with the students. Joan they were not the people whose homes you gathered at for things. But i remember in for the 1966 meredith march, it was dean branchs house that was turned into the big breakfast buffet where i sat next to marlon brando. Oh, wow. Joan that makes it, you know, when you have to have trivia questions about yourself later in life, thats mine. They had the long meeting the night before of the final date of the march when they had to hash out he was speaking and what order. Joan i missed that part. The North Jackson<\/a> Youth Council<\/a>. John salter is the adult advisor. What sort of actions were you involved at this level . , i was not involved well, i would be at his house a fair amount. But i was not going to the North Jackson<\/a> meetings, i was with the naacp agitation group out of tougaloo. Joyce and i were cochairs of that. We were supportive, we might be stuffing envelopes, but we were not going to the meetings at jackson, we were at campus studying, because we were students first and foremost. George told me once joyce told me once, a boycott was called and joyce was saying she thought that was pretty tame, she was more interested in what sncc was doing in the delta. Joan that is possibly true. They were different settings. I dont remember joyce on that point. We ended up being roommates and sorority sisters. Getting the field and is from the delta would take them and pull out gossip and news and make a little, i dont know, maybe two or three pages stapled together, these were copies. The mississippi news. Before the internet and cell phones, people would send me a copy of their field reports, i would combine it and send it out so that everybody knew what everyone else was doing professionally and personally. Are there any copies of that Still Available<\/a> . Do you know . I would have loved to have come across that in my research. Joan if there are, that would be in the stuff that i have given to the new smithsonian museum. I gave them the originals of the field reports, which i think the first sncc reference to fannie lou hamer, for instance, but i have copy machine copies of that. So, you were very much aware of what was going on elsewhere in the state . Joan oh, yeah. I couldnt go up into the delta, being white, but i certainly knew what was going on. And people, for r r, would be down at tougaloo or at the Freedom House<\/a> on rose street. So, i was, in some ways, more in touch with what was going on here and there than some of the people out there were. I remember we went up to hodding carters office, ed king and i, and i forget who else was in the car, once. And, oh, my lands, to openly go up into the delta. I mean, that was a big event. Was this the young hodding . Joan no, this was the old guy. Oh, old hodding. Oh, i see. Joan i guess it was the old guy. Then it was amazing years later to meet the grandson, who had written a book on his travels and i had traveled the same routes. We had both been there, days apart, things like that. In 1960 two, jackson, mississippi, the capital was a segregated city. Activists weres trying to change all that. If vence unfolded that would have national and International Significance<\/a> in terms of what was going on. Talk a little bit about the , thetts, your role in it mood on campus and town in 1963. Goingthe boy cap had been the boycotts have been going over christmas. I was busy being a student. Spring, it escalated a bit. There had been some picket demonstrations and people arrested and students and faculty and the point now coming that they need to step it up a little bit more and apparently a sit in was planned. I was not supposed to be part of that sit in. It was either going to be two demonstrations, complete entities of themselves, with a picket line down the street was to be a diversion to draw the police. That is what i understood. I was going to be a spotter. A spotter is a person who blends into the crowd, sees what is happening, has sometimes in officeocket to call the and say, they had been arrested, beaten up, whatever. Manas the state naacp before us outsiders got into the act, the key figure in the state. Chafee and i were spotters for the picket line and we did not think they were going to get arrested right away. Salters wife was in the picket line . Joan i dont remember who was in it, to be honest. It was an integrated picket line, she may have been in it, the student body president i think was in it. We thought the police would arrest them right away and that would give time for the people storeg in to get into the and make their purchase and get situated. But the picket line was arrested right away, so lois and i phoned in. Now what are we going to do . Down and see what is happening there. Think much would happen, pretty much the same thing, that they would be arrested . Joan as i understood at the time, they thought the people sitting in would be arrested beht away and we would just the picket line would be a diversion to give them time to get in and the police would come down and arrest them. The Supreme Court<\/a> had a ruling the week before that the police could not, of their own volition, go into a store and make arrests. They had to be invited in by the manager. The irony being that my name was on one of the cases that had been consolidated for this coming out of durham and there were cases the careful what you asked for. Joan yeah. Worth got down to a we got down to their we got down there and there was a crowd forming the red forming. This was new and. The high school was this was noon. Students were coming down, white students. I think some of the wasegationist honchos encouraging people to come up and come in the store. Norman, students from tougaloo sitting down. We were sitting together with memphis in the middle and he gets pulled off the stool and got kicked and that is a story that is well known and carted off by the police along with a guy who was attacking him who was a former policeman. That left the two girls alone. They were pulled off the stools, struggled back. Things were getting more and more mobish. Wereolice where nowhere to be seen . Joan they were outside laughing. You cant go in, you know, the Supreme Court<\/a> ruling, we have to obey it. Ed who suggested that i sit down with the girls, that it would be safer for me because i was starting to be spotted, i may be called out to the girls that somebody had a knife. It would be safer for me. You are safer if you have a barrier on one side of you. It would be good moral support for the two girls at the counter. So i sat down. Then we got pulled off the stools. We were able to get loose and get back to the counter, but not back to where lena was. Lois sat with her lena. You had a black and white girl here and annie and i sat here. And Little People<\/a> with bravado would do this and do that, throw something at us, dump some ketchup maybe. And then, ed is called back to medgars office. And medgar wants to come down, but hes talked out of it, because hed be killed pretty much on sight. But john comes down. John salter. Joan john salter, the white professor, comes down, and he makes his way to where annie and i are sitting. I think walter williams, who had been the student body president at jackson state but expelled for supporting, i think, the tougaloo nine sitin, library sitin group. Well, things keep going. Annie looking like a skunk and and johnlso condiments salter got the brunt of the ,ttack because he was a guy brass knuckles mixing blood with the mustard and things, called the mustard manned by the press. Now, the guys in sunglasses, as i understand it, were all fbi agents cleverly disguised. But basically, its High School Students<\/a> who were there. The reporter, a local guy, fred blackwell, was literally standing on the counter when he took this shot, as i understand it. I just want to interrupt. That is one of the most iconic photographs of the Civil Rights Movement<\/a>, probably shown more than any other. And at the Kennedy Library<\/a> in massachusetts, its a huge blowup photo. Joan oh, thats worth a trip to massachusetts. Oh, yes. More so than the greensboro sit ins, this has become joan this has become it. Yeah. Joan i think the greensboro sitin was nice and orderly. This one you have a definite feel of violence. Its imminent, but there is no actual violence happening at the moment the camera clicked. But it tells the story. And its an integrated group. So, its good to use in books for children. [inaudible] ok, we are all set. Joan now, this picture is also the basis for a lot of illustrations for kids books. But something ive noticed very consistently in the illustrations, the person that would be me is always black. Really . Joan now, i understand they want it to look like a black movement, black students. But why doesnt john salter ever turn black . Why is it always the female . There are several answers to this. Im curious. What are your thoughts . Joan one, the main thought i have, aside from they want it to look like a black movement, but why always me rather than john is it has to do with the old thing about protecting white women from the black men. Hmm. Joan and i may be reading too much into it. It may be coincidental. But i just sort of wonder about what this says about our lingering racial attitudes. Yeah. Thats very interesting. It should be pointed out that the photograph there is a cover of a book that features the woolworth sitin and the Jackson Movement<\/a>, we shall not be moved, by michael obrien, wonderful book. Joan and here weve got not only the lunch counter one, but at the beginning, with memphis sitting with the two girls, and memphis being stomped. He was bleeding out of every opening in his head. Yeah, thats the photograph you dont see much of. Joan no. That is where you really get the full effect of the violence. Joan it is much better for kids books to show this one. Yes. Joan i talked to several reporters, probably all of the reporters behind the counter or their descendents and across the board, this is the most frightening experience at a demonstration they had in a Civil Rights Movement<\/a>. Granted, none of them were in. Irmingham or the riots mississippi, they got around. What was particularly horrifying for me how long did this go on . Joan i lost track of time. I think its supposed to have been about three hours or something. Three hours. If you can imagine what it was like to be there for that amount of time, with the crowd apparently not under control. Joan completely out of control, and the police laughing. You had been you were a veteran of sitins. This was something new for you. What were your thoughts . What were your feelings when your back was to these people and you didnt know what was coming . Joan of course, you were safer with the back and you i think we may have had a bit of a mirror at the lunch counter, where you could sort of see some of it. Oh, ok. Joan but our conversation, we kept it like, joking. Professor salter gave us much too hard of exams. But it was a deliberate attempt to keep our spirits up. And, for me, it was sort of like an out of body experience at some point. Ive heard this happens, you know, on the battlefield, like the real me had left and was sort of like up there like a guardian angel, keeping an eye on things, looking out for me, and this was just a shell that was sitting at the counter. Protective. Anything else that stands out in your mind . About that particular demonstration . Joan well, our College President<\/a> , when he heard about it, came down and worked it out, negotiating that the police would give us safe passage once the store was closed, that cars could be brought up to pick us up. The manager didnt want to close the store, but apparently his regional district man said to. But our College President<\/a> did come down and get things worked out and actually sat at the counter, albeit down a bit, talking to the reporters. But hes the only College President<\/a> who sat at a lunch counter where his students were. Got to give him credit there. I dont kind of understand why the manager didnt close the store. I mean, they were tearing it apart. Joan well, i think it was when they were seriously tearing it apart because they had used up , all the stuff that was real handy and were going further and further into the store. Were there ashtrays and things like that that were joan had to have been. I mainly remember the condiments coming at us, spray paint and stuff. Yeah. Were you hit at all . You said you were pulled off the chair. Joan i dont think i was. I wasnt like slugged. You know, pushed around, yes, and sort of carried by the waist, virtually, to the store exit, where the guy actually got arrested. But i think and then you went back. Joan of course, we had to go into the mob, that was the point. We tried to shield each other. Store,i went out of the the mob was forming outside. That would have been more dangerous than returning to the counter. And the press was there. Yeah. So, what happens . You are finally the store is , cleared. You are led out to a waiting car. What next . Joan cars pull up, and they take us back to the black community down near medgars office. And the ladies were taken over to the beauty parlor across the street, and thats womanpower unlimited type thing. We got all cleaned up over there. Umhmm. Was there a mass meeting that night . Joan a mass meeting that night and, man, it was packed. This was the chapel at tougaloo . Joan no, this was one of the churches downtown . Joan the church i forget the name of the church, but whatever the main Meeting Church<\/a> was in the black community. And, of course, on campus theres always a todo, too, but mainly that evening when we all got introduced, and we were cleaned up by then. Things started to happen rapidly in jackson after that. The national naacp, which had been sort of on the sidelines, realizes that this is big news. The National Office<\/a> comes to town. Roy wilkins gets himself arrested. And yet, at the same time, there is an effort on the part of the canon me kennedy administration, we know this from the records, to get people out of the streets, to arrange some sort of a compromise. Birmingham had exploded already. The kennedys did not want to see anything like this happen in jackson. How much of this were you aware of on campus, that things that had been at white heat were now sort of tampering back . Joan well, you see, this was right at the end of the school year. And i left within a day or two and came back to washington and worked in the march on Washington Office<\/a> all summer. So, i was mainly getting just whatever was in the Washington Post<\/a>, i think. So, you werent there for the final days . Joan i wasnt there. John doar was amazing, another hero. Yeah. Joan medgars body was at a funeral home up here, and the lines were around the block to go in and see him. Thats right, because he was buried at arlington. Joan he was buried at arlington. I still have the black crepe ribbon that they gave us to pin on our clothes or armbands, or whatever. We should probably mention that at the height of all this, medgar evers was assassinated by a member of the white citizens council, byron de la beckwith, and at the funeral, there were demonstrations, and that john doar of the Justice Department<\/a> was able to keep things from exploding into a full riot. By this time, you were back in washington, working on the march on washington. Do you want to anything more you want to say about the Jackson Movement<\/a>, or should we move on to washington . Joan i cant really speak to the Jackson Movement<\/a> right then, because i wasnt there. Yeah. Joan i was here, basically working in the press section at the march on washington headquarters. And we certainly didnt assume that the march was going to come off or smoothly. The newspapers were full of stories of worries about riots. Merchants were boarding up their windows downtown. Yeah. People dont realize that now. Joan the American Nazi Party<\/a> was right across the river. There was a real fear of violence in the city. Plus, at the march office, we figured that it was also quite likely that the federal government would intervene and literally prevent the busses from rolling into washington. So, the fact that that took place was wonderful. Yeah. Joan i was working in the press tent up on the Monument Grounds<\/a> and did not literally march, though we got sort of bussed up closer. But it had been an awful year. I mean, not only did king write his he did not write it, but have his dream speech, but he had written the letter from a birmingham jail that spring. There had been the whole birmingham scene. There had been the whole jackson scene. It was awful. And there were a few other things. I mean, thats just the ones that yeah, there were more demonstrations that summer than in any other year. Joan danville, yeah. And then, to have the march come off gloriously, in spite of john lewis being censored. Yeah. Joan and then, just over two weeks later, the church in birmingham was bombed and those girls killed. Umhmm. You came back, didnt you, from the march on washington, with ed king and a group . Joan yeah. Ed and annie and i came back. This, by the way, is anne moody, who wrote the book coming of age in mississippi. Joan yes. And we camped in a national park, i think, along the blue ridge, or Shenandoah National<\/a> park. And when we came out of the shower room together, we got quite the looking over. [laughter] but we got back and went to school and then there was the church bombing. So, a vanload of us went over to the funerals for three of the girls. And there was still glass in the gutters, which we were picking up, and shotgun shells where the police had fired over the heads of the people coming out over the bombed church. And, to me, that was the absolute worst day in the movement. There were sharpshooters on the roofs of buildings, with their guns pointed down at the crowds at the street, which sort of makes you wonder. Did you then coming back, was it more difficult to get involved in Movement Activity<\/a>, or were you more determined . Joan oh, we were right back well, i was still a student at tougaloo. We were right back into it. We were, by then, having the church visits. Talk about that. Joan the church visits had started that summer, i think maybe just before medgar was killed, but while the cattle barns were being filled up with demonstrators in jackson, and to try to speak to the conscience of the people going to church, you know, youre welcome, jesus. And integrated groups would go to the churches, and sometimes the police would move in and arrest them. Sometimes they would be turned away and leave. If the Police Arrested<\/a> them, it was before they had a chance to leave. And, of course, there would be spotters. And by fall, when i got back, it was ministers would sometimes come down from the north and try to visit their denomination with students, or it would be a black and white group of ministers and whathaveyou. And every once in a while, youd get in church. Can you remember those occasions . Joan i think fondren presbyterian i got into, our group got into. Umhmm. St. Andrews episcopal, was that joan i dont remember. I honestly dont remember. Yeah. Joan but we always knew that the Catholic Church<\/a> and chancery were a sanctuary, if we were downtown. Wed known that for years, that if youre trapped downtown, if you can make it to the catholics, youre home safe. Umhmm. Interesting. Was that based on the medieval concept of sanctuary in the Catholic Church<\/a>, or was this the local joan i think this was the local priest, but the catholics had been more, you know, open to everyone. Come unto me, all ye who labor and are heavyladen, and i will give you rest. Galloway methodist was a major target, wasnt it . Joan yes. I saw pictures of the deacons out on the steps, turning you away. Joan yeah. It was the downtown churches were big. And joyce ladner, who was my roommate, ended up married to this gentleman who was an ambassador somewhere in africa. And a group of methodist ministers were coming to visit, and she was being the lovely ambassadors wife, serving tea. And, oh, where are you from . Oh, and what church . Oh, galloway. Oh. I was arrested on the steps of your church. [laughter] that must have been an interesting conversation. But, i mean, things go around a lot. Well, it had an impact. I mean, reverend selah, the galloway minister, resigned when his church would not allow an integrated service. Joan yeah. And theres been a radical change. But ive met people in recent years in mississippi who, by way of introduction and explaining who they were, my father was one of the signers of the statement of conscience that the what, 28 or 30 or whatever ministers came up with. And most methodists and most were forced from their churches in mississippi. But still, thats a way of identifying themselves. Its extremely difficult to be white in mississippi and to do anything except be quiet or support the citizens council, or risk, as ed king did, being ostracized throughout the community. Joan yeah. And it is understandable those that didnt make a loud noise, but a lot of people did things quietly, somewhat behind the scenes. I can understand the current pope, working behind the scenes. 1964, graduation day, something people look forward to. Anne moody writes about it in her book. What were your thoughts . And had you decided then what you were going to do after graduation . Joan well, contrary to what anne says, i was not planning to come back for freedom summer. I had already decided that i had come to mississippi to be a student. And it just felt natural to leave when i was no longer once i got my degree. And so, the obvious place to go back to was washington, d. C. The summer project, later known as freedom summer, plans were underway. Were you actively involved in any of those activities before . Joan i could type, man, i could type. And i remember, with bob moses at the Freedom House<\/a> on rose street, we were talking about it, and how hes just agonizing over, do we have the right to encourage students to come down for the summer, knowing that someone will be killed . Oh. Thats interesting, because that was a question throughout in the movement. Joan yeah. You know, we can tell them that someones going to be, but they really wont understand. Now, actually, i was almost killed to stop freedom summer on the road back from canton. Talk about that. Joan canton had been completely offlimits to whites in the movement. It was such a rough town. And it was under curfew. The school year was over. Freedom summer was looming. Over at ed kings, we decided to take a carload of everyone white in the car to the mass meeting that night. It was eds car, but we decided it would be better to let hamid kisselbash from pakistan drive, swarthy white. And the meeting was over before the curfew, so people could get home. We noticed we werent being followed when we left campus and heading into canton. And we werent being followed by the police there were no police around when we left. But we realized that we were being followed. And the interstate had just opened, and we were in that sort of little nomansland between the old road and the new road, i mean, and the interstate. We were being followed and we got boxed off out in that little stretch, and guys with crowbars coming out. Now, a couple of days before, or the day before, the leader of the Opposition Party<\/a> in the legislature or parliament in india had been arrested in jackson, going gandhianstyle in sympathy with us, to a restaurant. And this had upset the embassy in washington, which passed the word to the state department, which passed it down to the state of mississippi, who obviously passed it on to local Law Enforcement<\/a> officials. I was in the backseat. Ed was in the front with hamid. And long story, but they got the door open, were beating on hamid, and ed telling them, dont hit him. He is a foreigner, he is not part of you know, we are white, we are local. He is a foreigner, he is from india, dont hit him, he is from india. And hamid is dazed and bleeding, im from pakistan. [laughter] and the guy that ed was making eye contact with who seemed to be the leader pulled the others , suggesting that he was he had gotten the word from lawenforcement. And we got out of there. And the governor had said that there would be no violence, there was no violence, and if there was, he wanted to be the first to know. So, we went to the governors mansion, dripping blood up the steps, ed and hamid. And once they realized who they know, they couldnt get in and went to the hospital. Oh, we stopped at the state Highway Patrol<\/a> on the way, and they said if you have a problem, you have to go back to canton yeah, yeah. Joan so, then the governors mansion, then the hospital. And my understanding is that we were supposed to have been killed that night to stop freedom summer. This comes ed said a klan informer, well, undercover, got this word to them. And the fact that we didnt die that night meant that three other guys did. Two of them were our friends. Yeah. Joan chaney and schwerner were on campus a lot. We knew them. Yeah. So, that was sort of your last not your last memory of mississippi, but the last confrontation . Joan my last confrontation was almost being offered up for freedom summer. Yeah. And then you were back home and you were reading about the deaths of the civil rights workers and everything. What were your feelings then . Did you secondguess yourself . Did you wish you were back in it . Joan no. But, you know, you knew they were dead. I was working at the smithsonian. And i guess i got on with a few of the black workers well enough that they knew i felt i was of them. There was always a question with who was i one of . This bit on campus with the visiting white ministers who thought i was one of them, as opposed to the students who thought i was one of them, led to some weird moments. But one of the black workers told me that they had brought in chaneys body on the weekend after dark to be examined by the forensic people there, and there was not a bone in his body that was not broken. Now, this never saw anything in the press. This was just word in the hallways, which i tend to believe. Well, it did. It did get into the press, because a dr. Spain from the medical committee for human rights examined him. And it was that famous comment that went all over the world, saying, the only time ive seen a body so beaten up was in an airplane crash. So, that word did get out. But before, in the original, with the mississippi examiners, nothing was said of that. Joan umhmm. Now, ive seen references to it, you know, badly beaten, every bone, you know, all this. But i didnt hear it in the smithsonian, but i could have missed that. Umhmm, yeah. Well, i mean, that was the original story that went out. And that was why dr. Spains examination, which he made at the request of mrs. Chaney, which also took a lot of guts on her part, that it was just a coverup. Joan yeah. We dont know exactly what went on, but the best evidence we have from informers is that both goodman and schwerner were shot and that chaney tried to run away, and they literally beat him before they shot him. But it was the kind of thing that part of freedom summer was to get the attention of the world. In a sad way, that did, and things started to change after that. Joan but this whole thing of being brought in in a body bag after dark on the weekend, it was just being whispered around the halls of the smithsonian at that point. Yeah, yeah. So, you said you came back for the meredith march. Was that your first time in mississippi back from after you left, or had you gone down before . Joan well, the meredith march was 1966. Joan 1966. I dont think i had been back, though i might have been. I have been in and out of mississippi regularly over the years. The meredith march, i went back for that. Where did you pick up the meredith march . Joan at tougaloo. At tougaloo. Joan you know, i had friends. I mean, that was the idea. Some of us went from washington straight to tougaloo, two couples. And somebody had to have given me some papers that i folded and slipped into my new testament that i always carried on demonstrations. I mean, youre having a sitin or, you know, a tense moment, reading the bible was the thing to do. And they must have been the very first references to black power and on a flyer. Yeah. Joan one was, from reading it, was issued the night that they the other was the next morning. The morning one was an exploration of why calling for a boycott. I keep wondering if that really is the first printed reference. The cry black power came up the week before in greenwood. In greenwood, yes, stokely. Joan then this was a week later in canton. And a week later, the Washington Post<\/a> political cartoon has black power, Something Like<\/a> sncc, and gray power, or something, naacp, in the political cartoon in the post, which at that point was a very prominent it was herblock. Joan if you had something in the post, the second was the new york times. Newspapers meant something. Wheret was the march black power was born. The Movement Began<\/a> to go in a different direction, though blacks had been talking about power fry long time before. Stokely, we went back to the demonstrations with and in the freedom ride the mid1970s, he was speaking at the smithsonian. I had taken down my youngest two, who at most were four, and stokely was the speaker and probably the most feared man in White America<\/a> and there was a break and people could mill about, restaurants, whatever. I said to my friends i was sitting with, blackandwhite, im going to take the kids out to meet stokely. They said, dont, something will happen and it will be upsetting and they wont understand. Well, im going to do it. Out, thesehe twins irish looking kids, st. Patricks day, to meet stokely. Between stokely and the lobby and entrance from constitution avenue is a semicircle of bodyguards from the nation looking very intimidating. Stokely is talking to some officials. I catch his eye, he cuts off the situation the conversation, motions be over. Stokely, i would like my kids to meet you. , thisy was 62 or 63 towering figure, knelt on the eyeball talk eyeball to , shake their hands, whats your name . How old are you . All this stuff. We were all friends. More than theed raised fist. A side of him people did not see. Joan i knew other white folks who knew him from back in the day with similar stories of him going out of his way to acknowledge their presence and interact with them. The dooku said [inaudible] drink wine, listened to classical music. Has a storyrowning of stokely coming over and interacting. It is too bad that that image is the only one most people will have. We want tou so much, know something about your life in the last 50 years. Can you tell us what you have been doing . Workedell, i came back, a number of remedial jobs because they dont hire women, just get married, have babies, and quits. So i got married, had babies, and quit. Five of them, boys. Thingsd in the community , the schools, pta, speaking for the school board and number of times on issues that you could trace back to the Civil Rights Movement<\/a> perspective. In the classroom, as a teaching ,ssistant for close to 30 years brought a lot of perspective, thinking outside the box and the appreciation of understanding of cultural issues to the classroom. ,ow that im retired from that im still speaking. Still agitating. Joan still. Anybody who is writing a book or maybe or making a movie or wants to do an oral history and wants a speaker for an event or at their Community College<\/a> classroom, i am happy to go. Well, with that in mind, i would like joan particularly if they feed me. [laughter] to thank you. This has been an enlightening interview. But before we go, i want to add that one of Joan Trumpauer<\/a> mulhollands sons, loki mulholland, has a video documentary about his mothers life, titled an ordinary hero, the true story of joan mulholland. Well get a zero in on that right away. And what a fitting tribute, and from your son. Joan amazing. It had to make you very proud. Joan i had to do something right raising him. [laughter] thanks again. Joan thank you. That was great. [captions Copyright National<\/a> cable satellite corp. 2020] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap. Org] youre watching american tv American History<\/a> tv on cspan3. Bookshelf,history when a newman talks about her book gilded suffragist about the women of new york social elite who joined the Suffrage Movement<\/a> in the early 20th century. Author discusses her book, a mighty and irresistible tide, which looked at the evolution of u. S. Policy since the immigration act of 1924. Historian ofrn, a the New York Historical<\/a> society talk about artifacts in the joint publication, the civil war in 50 objects. A focus on art judy i am so delighted to be here and i know johanna is. Fulle to start out, disclosure, and say when johanna wrote me about this event a few and said is there any chance youd be free, i wrote her immediately back, i said i would love to see you. The book sounds great. Becausewait to see it we go way back. As you heard, we go back to the white house during the early 1980s when both of us were just of middle school. [laughter] in oure were early on careers as journalists and i think we bonded back then","publisher":{"@type":"Organization","name":"archive.org","logo":{"@type":"ImageObject","width":"800","height":"600","url":"\/\/ia903205.us.archive.org\/6\/items\/CSPAN3_20200808_175400_Oral_Histories_Joan_Trumpauer_Mulholland\/CSPAN3_20200808_175400_Oral_Histories_Joan_Trumpauer_Mulholland.thumbs\/CSPAN3_20200808_175400_Oral_Histories_Joan_Trumpauer_Mulholland_000001.jpg"}},"autauthor":{"@type":"Organization"},"author":{"sameAs":"archive.org","name":"archive.org"}}],"coverageEndTime":"20240716T12:35:10+00:00"}