Report recorded this conversation. You might recognize my voice, because in previous life streams, im usually the guy behind the camera, and im reading questions from our audience as they come in so that we can directly engage with you while were talking to our first person interpreter actor bill barker, who portrays Thomas Jefferson. We wanted to do Something Different this week. Given the National Conversation and given events all around us, we know that 2020 has been a challenging year. Monticello has been closed for months. We reopen this weekend millions all over the country are actively fighting for equity against different forms of racial injustice, whether its racially motivated Police Violence or racially motivated monuments, memories. Its a conversation that we must engage in. And working here at monticello, we are a site of memory, and monticello is a plantation where over 400 people were enslaved. Today we decided that, to have a conversation, we would do something we havent done, and im sure everyone,0 knows this, when you tune in youre not talking to Thomas Jefferson. Youre talking to my friend bill, who portrays Thomas Jefferson. Bill is going to join us today. When he does so, he will be out of character. We talked about this before we would go live as to how we would best address the subject. We thought that perhaps a good idea would be to talk about the challenge of interpreting slavery explicitly. Obviously, bill and i, when we talk about this, we recognize that we are both white men and were talking about something that greatly impacts people of color and black americans. This friday is juneteenth, which marks a day of remembrance in this country for the end of slavery. Its a day that all americans should celebrate, knowing that this is an institution that legally ended. But that institution legally ending was not the end of its legacies. Slavery has always existed and slavery still exists, but the kind of slavery that existed at monticello, racebased slavery that developed through the Transatlantic Slave Trade and into the early United States was inextricably intertwined with developing concepts of race, the lasting legacies of which we still struggle today. And the systems that were still trying to dismantle. We believe, bill and i, that we must engage this conversation, and monticello is engaging this conversation and inviting others to do the same. Ill still be accepting questions online. Bill and i will will try to answer those as best we can, but today we believe were going to use this time to invite you all to join us in this, understanding that we do have privilege as white men and as such a duty to engage in a conversation about all of our shared pasts and help us understand how the history of the past determines who we are today. So, bill, i think we should start with just a little explanation of what a firstperson interpreter is. Can you tell us, what is a firstperson interpreter do . And what do you do here . Thank you all to talk about, speak with and importantly listen to, because in my vocation, it is an element of theater. You cannot strict it frextricat it from theater. This is no mere intermission of a so. This is no on track. This is the reality of our times, our past times, and this conversation continues. In my capacity as an historic interpreter, the theater is, as shakespeare said, the thing. The play is the thing often to spark and to provoke the mind of the king, to help us look at ourselves. Shakespeare in particular succeeds in his place to hold up a mirror in which we can see our human nature. Its nonetheless an historic interpretation so my vocation, for what ive done for 40 years, put on the vestments, but also the theater of mr. Jefferson to help us think and to help us better understand our past, and particularly who we are as americans, and to engage that conversation, certainly as he would want. So you have made reference that youve done this for a number of years. Our topic today about interpreting slavery, talking about slavery, is so relevant, but it has been an ongoing part of conversations at monticello for a long time, Historic Sites around the world. Can you tell us how its changed from your perspective over the years, this interpretation of slavery . Yes, we are talking about it now t we had been talking about it for a few years, but not the 40 years ive been involved. Imagine, im a child of the 60s, so i grew up in talking about this and we go in and out of it, in and out of it, but at Historic Sites, as i began this in Independence Hall in philadelphia, yes, there was mention of slavery, but it was not engaged thoroughly. Im going back 40 years. When i went to Colonial Williamsburg, in the spring of 1993, williamsburg had already embarked for several years upon the discussion of slavery. There was the africanamerican interpretative group at Colonial Williamsburg. I welcomed that opportunity to work with them to better explain the story and enact the story of our history. Monticello had embarked at the same time upon speaking on slavery, and continues as Colonial Williamsburg and many order living museums and national Historic Sites across our country, continues to speak about this more and more, engage this, but most particularly what is so important, to acknowledge it. To acknowledge it. And struggle with it. We need to struggle with this. A firstperson interpreter is limited to the character, the time period they must portrayed. Actually in conversations preparing for this week, one of the things that you and i discussed is a great example, juneteenth is manage that Thomas Jefferson, during his life, would know nothing about. Can you talk about the challenges of staying in character when talking about slavery in particular . For mr. Jefferson to say, what is juneteenth . And this allows the guest to speak with him. This is to come to an United States that mr. Jefferson learns from the future, with the hope that the future may learn, well, if you are refer to a time in which we have finally ended slavery, what does it take then for that to come about . Would he want to know what it took to come about . We know and what i can tack about are his predictions. Its my job to interpret those letters and the conversations we know he had, and the interactions with those of his period, but it becomes even more a struggle for him as it does for us to ponder what it took and then for mr. Jefferson to understand what it continues to take you answered this a about i with that question. Gives the limitations of staying in character, there are strategies, of course, that you all implement to see more complete messages across. I work as an interpreter, but not as a firstperson interpreter. I think people would call me a tour guide, but not someone who dresses in a costume, or is bound by the times. So can you share some strategies about how you bridge that gap . I think the strategies for helping us to better understand where we have been rest in the reiteration and continuing conversation about our nations founding principles. I always preferred to introduce mr. Jefferson as writing what George Washington referred to as the promise, as the declaration of american independence, as something thats not new. Its the representation of accumulation of mans eternal history in the struggle for liberty. That is considered in jeffersons time. That has gone on. The fact that our promise, our declaration in an expression of the American Mind smiths they facts to a candid world. One of my strategies in that introduction is to remind people that we achieved the first nation in the history of man founded on principle, not upon monarchy, not on nobility, air stock crazy. Principles of inalienable rights in nature, that every individual is entitled to. Is that the experience in his day . No, it is not but he wrote it. Its our founding principles and our blueprint from which we continue to struggle and have the conversation and pursue that equality. I remind people as a strategy that we brought 13 individual nations together, to remind us that these er colonies were nations unto themselves, with differences in religion, with slavery the overwhelming experience in many, but not in others. That we brought this all together, e pluribusunum, and to understand that egal tearianism, is not a socialism. Its an equal opportunity. Its an opportunity for everyone to be able to achieve the pursuit of their happiness, to be happy. To understand that freedom is not free. It requires an eternal vigilance in order to reflect on the founding principles. Those are initial strategies that i try to engage at the very beginning and quite obviously the conversation will continue. So we are starting to get some questions in from the audience. This is a great one. Groups are by fast the more diverse groups that visit monticello. In normally times we see tens of thousands of students each year. Bridget wants to go how do you go about addressing topics like slavery whether youre talking to a younger audience . Bridget, its always been my experience to realize that the younger very sensitive to begin with, and have a great common sense and understand, out of the mouth of babes. Where better to engage this conversation if only to begin it with many who have been thinking about it, who can continue to think about it, continue to engage it. For a stay tuned as to ask mr. Jefferson about slavery opening the door. Its very sincere, very innocent, its obvious. We approach it. And we speak about it. We speak with and we listen to. So i welcome students. Ive been going out to schools for nor than 40 years. I can tell you its the most satisfying work, particularly when greeting them here at monticello, as i was able to do at Colonial Williamsburg. This is how we touch or past, how we prepare our future, these are opportunities to speak with the future. This one is interesting. It says, zach wants to know do you find people assume your views are Thomas Jeffersons views . Is it hard for people to differentiate between the two of you . I have a followup do you ever wish you could answer as bill instead of as Thomas Jefferson . Firstly, of course i wish i could answer as bill, but im in my job. Im in my vocation. Im in my duty to teach history, to interpret history, but certainly not to justify mr. Jeffersons pins. I expose his opinions, but i also speak about his vision, and most importantly, too, to reveal he changed his mind as he grew older. To help us understand, we all change our minds as we grow older. You read jefferson. Hell let you know, i one thought this, i now think that. Its helped me to keep in touch, and particularly to help me better understand how day to day what we meet and what challenges y you. I think this is a challenging one, but you just opened the door for it by saying its not your job to justify jeffersons writings. John asked about notes on the state of virginia. Any color about jefferson knows the notes where he describes his opinions on race is the crucial element to understanding slavery. You made me think of this earlier as well, that its changed the way we talked about slavery. Even in my short time in the field, ive only done this for ten year, but the way we talk about race in Historic Sites and the Public Discourse has changed. These were not broadly known conversations ten years ago outside of at the academic discourse. Lets talk about another point cash talks about how as public historics we can have an aance that finds it abhorns, but understands the context. Can you talk about how jefferson would write about these things without justifying what jefferson wrote . If someone and they have many times asked mr. Jefferson about hi notes on the state of virginia, you will certainly see remorse, to begin with. You will certainly see an effort to dodge talking about it. But hes node going to dodge it. Hes going to approach it. As he does later in life, hes going to apologize for it. He does this in a her to henri gregor, who becomes a wellknown abolitionist. He writes in february of 1809, but even in remark is not meant to be an excuse. Its a revelation of the struggles that jefferson was going through. A further revelation is we know they see now. He did not write the notes to be published extensively. He wrote them collectively in answer to a questionnaire that was put out to the commonwealth the virginia so that france could become better aware of information, particularly to investing in the American Revolution he had them published in french privately, and handed out to gentlemen of scientific curiosity. Quite naturally it got out of their hands, it was published and there it was. Theres a background. Its not a justification for them, but a revelation. In these notes, jefferson makes bold statements not only about race, but also religion. He makes bold statements about habits and customs. He maybe comments about particular names hes ascribed to flora and fauna. He answers much of the questions from marbeau. He answers them, too. Heres the revelation of the scientist who writes very early on be so bold as to question everything. Follow trust wherever it should lead us. Again these are not justifications. Theyre revelations of had information we struggle with it, as we should, and he did. Can it be reconciled . Ive never been able to. We just got a comment that i think is very relevant to what you just said and also the conversation at handle. Ill preface this as saying this is an emotional topic, and i can reference that by saying look at the comments. People have strong feelings about this. They run across the board, and particularly addressed towards this history. Some people clearly say that we are trying to tear down the history of a great man. Others say we are trying to celebrate a singular narrative of a white man, and we welcome that discourse. But dylan asked this question, and i think its pertinent for you when youre out there, you can see the emotions in people. How do you help mitigate that while youre in character, helping people, audience members, grapple with their own emotions . I only his tay, because im looking for the word. I use it frequently in persona. This is the duty of an american citizen. Its our duty. We the people hold the reins of our government. We the people who are responsible for the american conversation. This is exactly the Foundation Upon which the American Revolution was engaged as the british will want to play on the surrender field at yorktown. The event that turned the world upsidedown. The recognition by john locke and others that a monarch is not put on the throne by divine right. The model of the royal family in great britain, you can still see it cut on the coat of arms on the Governors Palace got is my right. Im here by divine right. No, it is the people, the people from which a leader emanates. If there were no people, the government would govern over no one. So it is the people who not only provide the purpose but the power for government. This is our conversation. It always has been our conversation, and if historiology will tend to it one way in a particular period, it will tend to it in another but we continue to revolve through this, and in my opinion evolve thats my hope. Thats why i continue to do this. Retirement is not a word in my vocabulary, nor in mr. Jeffersons vocabulary. He left at 65 to devote his time for found a university. Would he could have succeeded as well in end the slavery altogether, we know that the coles brothers approached him. What did he reply . He said this is on the shoulders of your generation. So again, i think this is a duty, this is a necessity and perhaps as a system of government where George Washington referred to as the guarantee of our promise. A system of government the first line of which is we the people. What a wonderful honor and obligation in my opinion. You spoke about the idea that history is a set of facts. Its not exactly right, the more we learn about history, the more we learn history almost says as much about the times its written, and the times its trying to describe or understand. Theres an aspect of jeffersons history i think we should definitely address, and it is one of the reasons why jeffersons history and the history of monticello is such a compelling lens, and that is of course the fact that jefferson fathered children with a woman who he owned as property. Monticello has for years addressed what this relationship with Sally Hennings and tomt ms jefferson means, and what it means how consent between a master and slave could exist, and how well never know about the feelings one way or another but this conversation and the recognition of jefferson as hemmings childrens father, there was a dna study. This dna study did not prove that Thomas Jefferson was the father. No one ever claimed that it did. What the dna study did is that it provided a significant data point, a piece of rkorroborator evidence. Could you talk for a minute how that news spread and what peoples reactions were . I distinctly remember in september of 1997 there was a seminar held here at monticello. Actually the historians and interpreters of jefferson sites, Independence Hall, the jefferson memorial, the National Parks service represent tis, i was there as well. In our collective conversation, it was mentioned that the dna study in the process for several years was soon to be revealed in its final statement. So we want you to understand this, this will come about in our studies and in our conversation to be very, very effective we all wondered when can came out, many of you may recall, on the front page of the washington post, sunday edition, and it was i think the first sunday in november 199 7. I was walking to the Capital Building in williamsburg to have a program, and a number of people were gathered around saying, mr. Jefferson, have you seen this