My grandfather had 500 invested in the stock market. He lost it. This is when people were jumping out the window and so forth. And my grandparents were teachers. I think he taught languages in music. I dont know what my grandmother taught. But they moved from virginia to philadelphia. And that started the family, split the family because my grandparents couldnt get a job. They said they didnt hire black teachers in philly. They had black children going to integrated schools, but no black teachers. So my grandparent took in washing and my grandfather refused to do that type of work. And the family split. The older kids went to college in the family. And they were teachers. The youngest kid was sent to school by the middle children, who did not go to college. They had to work to help pay. So that again, we go about the color line thing. I was born in d. C. My mother was born in virginia. And when i was 3, my parents divorced when i was a baby. And my dad took the boy. My mother took the girl. Remarried. Moved from sfik. San francisco. Then she remarried again. I ended up at virginia union. Which one of my great grandparents was on the board at virginia seminary. It was great to know my great great dwrp had helped to start the school. So talk more about your childhood growing up on the west coast. Before you went to experience virginia, what were the sort of racial dynamics of life in both southern and northern california. Growing up in San Francisco, i lived in what is now called the west end. It was called fillmore back in those days. Its where black people were. You b probably dont even know. I guess its where the black people lived. Then we moved. And i went to saint dominics. It was all white. And every day i used to pray, i hope she doesnt slap me this morning. She would walk down as we were praying and slap me. I would pray to god. God, i have done something wrong, please help me. I didnt know what i had done wrong. Never did. And i used to get fs. All my papers were fs. And i was in the second grade or third grade. And my mother said, you need to bring your papers home and i started crying. She says, whats wrong. I said im dumb. She said bring them home any way. She collected that many papers about an inch and marched me up to the school and says why are these marked wrong. Theres nothing wrong. I didnt know i was bright. And the nun started crying. Mom said, go outside and play. I said im not allowed to play. I have to go to church. While the other kids were out playing . My mother says i think you better go outside. I dont know what she said to the nun, but after that, the smartest girl and i in class were vying firefighter grad. I didnt tell my mother she slapped me. So that was my experience there. I went to a Public School first. And a little white boy said that he couldnt hold my hand because his mother said he couldnt hold the hand of negros. I didnt know. I knew it was something bad because he couldnt hold my hand. That was the first time you heard that . Yeah. Thats my experience. My parents never talked in front of me, but i heard them whispering that hes a teacher, but he can only substitute. Because he has a dishonorable discharge. Because during world war ii, he jumped off a ship, refusing to fight. Because he said why should he fight for america when hes not free here. I remember him saying that. And then i remember my mother trying to get a job. And they told her you join the union first and you can get the job. And the the union says get the job first. And vice versa. This went on. And i remember my mother crying. But not in front of us. I do remember. So little things, subtle things. You know, santa monica had a big rope across the beach. Unofficially. But its there. Teaching jobs. Only teaching the black area. It was there. Its still there. So had your parents at all prepared you for what it would be like as you got ready to go across the country . Heck no. Nobody could prepare you. I sat dun at the soda fountain. I said i want a banana split. Ill never frgt this. One strawberry, one vanilla. If you dont have black walnut, please put another straw berry, no chocolate and syrup on top and whipped cream. The lady went away to make it. She came back and said, we cant serve you. I said, oh, are you out . She says, no. I remember saying, oh, oh, oh, it shocked me. I couldnt get a banana split because im black sitting at the counter. I wasnt thinking. I knew you couldnt, but i wasnt thinking. I just sat down. Had you had experienced like that in california . They are overt, not covert. You can feel them. I had been asked. When us went to high school, my cousin was filipino. And she says, i want you to come with me to the phfilipino picni. She says, come with me. So i went. I took my date. And when we got to the place outside of San Francisco, the guy said on the gate, i have to let you in. Are you sure you want to come . So i have had that type of thing. Or places in you people can come in, do you think youre going to be happy . Interesting. Kind of coded. Or presented a different way. May i ask why you decided to go to a traditionally black . My mother thought it would be good for me. But i think i should have gone to howard. Dont get me wrong. Virginia union was great, but i should have been in the city. Because it was too much learning at one time being in the south and the mentality. So what was that like . You talked about the ice cream parlor, but what was that like . I us didnt like anybody. It was first of all i thought i was wrong. I didnt know anything. This is what year . In the 50s. 59, around then. But as a young person, youre very ignorant, but you dont know it. And i thought i knew everything. And when i went there, i couldnt understand why the white people treated the blacks the way they were treated and why the blacks allowed it. I even got angry with some of the black people for not sitting in. The kids. I didnt understand. I do now. If they had sat in, they wouldnt have dinner on the table that night because their parents would have been fire d. I had no idea. So what was the union like in terms of sort of a consciousness . Or even were there teachers talking about it . I believe it was a way of life. They knew how to live within the system. Im not saying it was comfortable for them, but they had a black society, which was a way of living. I remember dr. Johnson, who was my favorite struinstructor ther. He had two ph. D. S. He got his first when he was 18 maybe, im not sure. A very bright man. He used to play in a quartet, i dont know what he played, violin or something. He said one night he was driving home. He used to tell jokes in class. He had the white woman. He thought, im dpoing to be killed. He was always saying things like that. But i dont know. I dont remember. Im so old. I dont remember. The sitins you got involved in, im curious what prefigured those . What kinds of conversations were you having amongst yourselves . We were having meetings. Charles and tony pinken were the leaders. We were always having metings about that. Can you remember what some of those meetings were . Being old is a son of a gun. No, i dont. I thought the world was going to change though. I was so naive. I remember, the Police Person was very nice to me. I remember when we were arrested he held my hand and helped me up into the wagon. I thought that was so nice. My aunt called me. She said youre being helped into the wagon. You mentioned some students didnt participate. I was angry with them. I felt they lived in virginia. They should. I met a lady at the 50th year reunion. Evidently, i knew her, but they needed pictures. I didnt remember anyone. Because i havent seen these people in 50 years. And we were sitting at the table and tears were coming down her eyes. I felt like crying too, but i dont cry in front of people. And she said that her father was fi fired. They had to move out of state. She had to drop out of school. I dont know if she ever finished college. I thought, thats how naive i was. She was one of the people from virginia. But i wanted all of them to be there. But i didnt live in virginia. My parents were in california. I know were not all going to be hunky dor ri, but its going to be integration now. I remember when we got arrested, we went to a courthouse. And im sorry, we went to jail. They put us in this cell. It was smelly. Not even a clean cell. And then in the court, the court was segregated. I felt like am i in hell . Even the courts are segregated. Then i remember a black man came in and he was a drunkard and you could smell him. I thought why do the drudges have to come in . Just its going downhill fast. And i thought am i losing my mind. Horrible. But i just thought, okay, now that we have sat in, we have these attorneys and everything is going to be right. Its not going to be any longer. You can change laws, but you cant change people. What kind of process is that . What do you think . I think the young kids today, many of them didnt grow up during that era. And many of them if you get angry with anyone, its angry not buzz of a persons color, its for some other reason. I think thats great. Many of the kids were that way today. Youre going to have an upper dog and a lower dog. I dont remember. Youre asking me difficult questions. I dont remember. I was surprised it was so important. This would have been the sitin was about three weeks after the one in greensboro on february 1st. Do you know if you were aware of other sitins . Yeah. Honest to pete, i dont remember. But you were aware . Yeah. What about the notion of nonviolence and us how you were going to comport yourselves . What could be dangerous. I was going to be a nonviolent person. Im not a violent person any way. Just my mouth, unfortunately. I thought its not fair to have people hit you and you cant really protect yourself. Its not really fair. Had i been a man, i probably would have been angry and retaliated. I dont know that. But maybe. Was there retaliation . No. The dogs ask things, but it was fine. What actually happened . We went downtown several days. And we sat down and, well, i didnt sit down. Being so tall, they pointed me out. Really and truly. I stand out. And they just wouldnt serve us. It was relatively calm to what i have seen on the news and talked with other people. How many students . 34. Were you arrested right away . We walked. The first time we werent. The second time we were. It was kind of i hate to say this, but a jovial mood. A lot of kids walking together. And were all going to change the world. I dont know how they felt, but thats the attitude i had and the feeling i get. Songs being sung . Yeah, but dont ask me the names of them. I had to learn black culture. Us had to learn the black songs. Growing up a catholic, you dont know those songs. I had never heard the black National Anthem before in my life. A lot of things i had to learn. I remember i went to adam paul was a big man. He and my uncle worked together too. He came to town to talk. I went to one of his meetings, civil rights meetings. And the people clapped and ba banged their feet and it scared me because i had i dont want this on the thing. I had never been in a whole group of black people. Can you imagine im black and im scared. That doesnt make good sense. You said when you first got to virginia. I got a better understanding of what was happening. The black people had to live there. The white people were only going along with the status quo. And i knew i was getting the hell out of there. As soon as you could . As soon as i could. Because i didnt like virginia. It has many fine qualities. I was too immature to really appreciate what was happening. I was too immature. Did you ever experience other parts of the south or the deep south . No. No. That was enough. You finished . Uhhuh. Where did you go from there . You mean school wise . I went to d. C. I had a young boyfriend. My mother kept saying come become to california. I said when i go back, im not going back to san diego. I dont like san diego. Its too country. San diego was flat i said im going home to San Francisco. She says please come back. Ill tell you what. Ill pay your way back and if you dont like it, you can go back to d. C. Or San Francisco. Well, i came back and starred partying. Im a kid. And then i got a job. So i was stuck there for two years. Another city i didnt like. Then i moved to l. A. Because im partying in l. A. I have friends this. This is during the summertime. I love dancing. Ill go get a job. I never did because i waited too late. What did you do for work . My last job was Assembly Bill 922, which is an expulsion counsellor for unified School District. Did you work for the schools . I taught people working for masters. I taught graduate students career psychology. Im a california person. So i do want the to ask more details about the sitins but lets stay in california. What did that experience that you went through there as a student and just experiencing that side of jim crow that was kind of different. And then going through the sitins there and coming back, what did you take away from that . What did you bring back to california . That the wheels of justice turn slowly, really and truly. Its slowly. I often thought would i do it again, yeah, i would do it again. It dp hurt me job wise. I went for a job in d. C. And the guy said i have to hire you, but because you made on the exam, but i dont think youd be happy here. But i see you have been involved in civil rights. Because i always put down i have an arrest record. Then for for the written exam, i never flunked the written. They flunked men of the training and experience. So i was working for the County School district before i came to l. A. And i asked the superintendent of the counties, he liked me as a person. Can you find out why they wont hire me. He said you have an arrest record and they think youre going to be a problem. I finally got in because someone mistakenly sent me a contract. I think it was my guardian angel. I think somebody saw what was happening. Maybe a black secretary and sent the paper out. You want to talk more about the sitins, and i guess i dont talk a lot about it because i think i have suppressed that. It was uncomfortable. And it hurts to this day. It hurts because many peoples attitude have not changed on both sides. And also when i see these black kids not going to school, it hurt mess to my heart. Not vote iing, dont they reali they need an education. They have to vote. Many of them are not doing it. And i want to cry. You told me before we started that thinking back to these times made you feel emotional. I was wondering what exactly you were thinking about. The whole thing in life, the situation is today. And also with obama being president , many feelings have come to surface, many of what other people feel have come to surface in a negative fashion. I dont like that. The screaming out during sessions, calling him names, comparing him to hitler and so forth. I do know you always need a top dog. I understand that. If we get rid of race, it will be size, color of eyes, something. When my brother came back from switzerland, he was a man behind kissinger conference. He came back and says, you know, he says, this stuff is bs. The racial stuff. We have world problems. He was really upset. He says we have real problems to contend with. You come from a family of serious issues with an emphasis on education. Any insight . No, not at all. Im glad i did. Your work in the School District and as a counsellor, were there racial issues that came up . Yeah, in fact, i was so angry i wrote a letter. Threepage computer written letter. They are going to say its not racial, but it was. We did expulsions for kids who brought knives, guns, drugs, et cetera. We had a hearing. If we found this to be so, then we told you you were straight expelled or expended expelled, which meant either kicked out of the School District or go to a special school. We had a kid who without any names, of course, who was involved and very involved in drugs, but because his parents had money, he was white, they didnt kick him out. I was so angry. And i was one of three on the committee. I told the other Committee People who are are white, i said, you know, hes guilty. They said well hes going to go to college. I said, will we judge it on a case by case i said dont feed that to me. Thats like saying youre so good, you can do that. I said dont do that to me. I said the kid is guilty. So i wrote a letter saying the inner city kids who are not going to go to college who do the same thing or not as much will be expelled. So its there. So insidious. How did you feel when obama was elected . I was elated because he was intelligent. Not because he was only black, but because he was intelligent, knowledgeable and i felt he was going to do the best he could for everyone. Not just black people, everyone. You cant have someone doing for one group and not the whole. Were your working with the School District during the bussing period in los angeles . Yeah, in fact, i was on one of the committees. I asked a question. I said why are you only bussing the black kids . And the person who was in charge said did you hear what i said. He shut me up. He said, did you hear what i said . Right now were bussing the black kids and he talked over me. They are the ones who had to get up early, come home late, drive far. I know where us lived in l. A. , i lived in view park, which had the number one Elementary School academically in my area. Because the people who live in my area were educators, doctors, lawyers, black people, mostly. And our school was top. They bus the kids from the school and no parent would put a kid on the bus. They said why should we bus our kids. They had sintegrated experience. They have gone to europe. They have been to stores. They dont need to go to a white school. What the School District did was take out every other grade so you had to bus your kid away. Was that one of the reasons you sent to private school . I just did. I sent them to the frervelg school. They ended up at Public School eventually. Had an okay experience . My kids dont see things the way i see things. My son used to be Vice President of dr. Pepper. And before that, he was with frito lays in marketing. I dont want to say anything about different corporations, so i wont name the corporation, but he had a Glass Ceiling also, which yeah. Did you talk as you were raising your own children, did you talk to them about the experiences you had had . I did not, no. My mother didnt tell me. She would show me these history books and i would see and read in the history books. She didnt want to prejudice me against people, which i can appreciate. And i didnt want to do that to my children either. I k