Todays conversation and to have this chance to speak with dr. Rice. I have to start on a personal note though because we are living in such a stressful time. How are you doing . How are you holding up . Where are you right now . Well, i am in california, and i am doing just fine. Like most, quote, knowledge workers, i am able to work from home. I did hear a funny line the other day, im not sure whether im working at home or living at work. But im finding this a time when i am actually pretty productive. Im able to do almost everything remotely. Im trying to keep up my exercise routine. Im practicing the piano so i can wrestle choppin to the ground. Ive just become director of the hoover institution. But frankly the time off the road, not on airplanes, allowed me to make a smooth transition. All in all, that plus keeping in touch with friends and family by zoom or by text, its really quite okay. Its quite okay. Well, condy rice, 2020 has been and i have to say first of all, it sounds like youre working harder than ever even though youre being modest about it. I know everybody i know feels like they are. But this has been a year, literally, like no other. First and foremost, of course, the pandemic. 6. 6 million americans have been infected with covid. Almost 200,000 americans have died. Another 700,000 people have lost their lives around the world. Besides the United States, the blow to the u. S. Economy, tens of millions of americans out of work, many people going hungry. The protests for Racial Justice after the death of george floyd. Wild fires right now across the western United States, deadly reminder of climate change. And then, of course, as we are here to discuss, the interruption in education. And questions about this falls elections as if we didnt need Something Else to think about. Where do we go to get our arms around where do you go to get your arms around this to understand whats going on . The first thing that we have to do is to try to keep perspective. It is, indeed, an incredibly challenging time. Its been rare that weve had so many crises, one after another, just really challenging the system, challenging our institutions, challenging that Good American characteristic of optimism. I think people are not feeling so confident and so optimistic. But i would just remind us as we were just reminded about president reagan that this country was indeed founded in crisis. This country should never really have come into being. I remind my students all the time that we were fighting against the greatest military power of the time with a third of George Washingtons troops on the smallpox any given day and we were victorious. We fought a civil war and you talked about the civil rights movement. I think if we continue to pull together, if we remember the stories that are emerging all over the country of small kindnesses, one american to another. Thats really our strength. The communities that are mobilizing to make sure that nobody is on the streets, the communities that are mobilizing to make sure that, as well talk about, a kid who perhaps doesnt have access to broadband can find a place to study. Thats who we are. Our institutions will catch up. But for the time being, im really encouraged and im inspired by what i see in every american stepping up and trying to make responsibility not just for themselves but for each other. When it comes to covid, which of course is uppermost in our minds right now, where do americans turn for the right information . We are theres several different narratives out there about whats going on. Who do we trust . Well, i do trust what im hearing from the scientists in washington. I know dr. Tony fauci. I know dr. Deborah birx. Theyre good people and theyre doing their best. We have a myriad of voices that may have a differing views. And i dont have a problem with people questioning the tradeoffs that were making in society. Its one thing to say from an epidemiological point of view simply stopping the virus, we should do everything we have. I wear a mask even when i dont have to because i want to send a signal to people that i care about your health as much as i care about mine. But it is also the case that we are having to make tradeoffs in businesses, small businesses. And im hoping were giving them a chance to start to open because these are people whose entire livelihood and future is tied up in that business and the ability to reopen. So, we are having to make tradeoffs and just saying its just the science i think is not really fair to understanding all of the things that were looking at. Were going to talk here about the effects on education. There are clearly tradeoffs. There are clearly down sides to Virtual Learning for kids, particularly k12. I dont mind judith, trying to do my work as a citizen to understand all the variables were looking at and not just going to one source. I think those of us who really want to understand what were going through are going to have to try to look different in multiple voices. For sure. And we are going to talk about education. At the same time, we are in this era where it seems we are having less civil conversations and less civil exchanges. How important is it that we can have the different kinds of points of view out there but shared in a civil way n a way where people are not raising their voices or shaking their fists at each other. I would ask everybody to remember that when were going through Something Like this, something thats fundamentally new in many ways we have some echos of it back in the past with the spanish flu. I was National Security adviser during sars. Weve seen something before. Weve seen nothing of this consequence at least in my lifetime in terms of the virus. So, lets all approach it with a sense of humility. Lets all approach it with the sense that nobody really owns the, quote, truth here. Were all trying to work our way through understanding. And i think that makes you more civil because youre willing to listen to somebody whos different, who thinks differently. I think one of our problems, judy, is im going to date myself. But i know you would be in the same category, with all due respect. My family used to watch the huntleybrinkley report every night. And some people watched walter c cronkite. There was of course the news hour that everybody watched. But now i can go to aggregator, i can go to my websites, i can go to my cable news channel. I never have to encounter anybody that thinks differently. Do you know what happens when you dont encounter people who think differently, when you do, you think theyre venal or theyre stupid. So, we really have to make a pledge as americans that were going to get out of our own little echo chambers. Were going to stop going to places where people say amen to everything we say, where we are reinforced in the rightness and certainty of our opinions and where were willing to listen. And if we can begin to get our information that way and share information that way, were going to be better off and we will ultimately be more civil too. No question. Many, Many Americans agree with what you just said. How do they get motivated to do that right now . Were not hearing that at the highest level right now. Were not hearing it in washington and were not hearing it across pennsylvania avenue. Its not just at 1600. Its not just in the congress. I think our leaders in a sense are reflecting us. You have to have strong opinions. You have to hold them strongly. The word compromise is a bad word. But our institutions, our founders, built our system on the expectation of what madison called constant consternation. That is were going to constantly be trying to solve our problems. Were going to have to sometimes win or lose this battle but not consider that person my enemy, move on to the next one knowing that we all have the Public Interest at heart. Ronald reagan held strong views. I remember how much he changed our thinking of whether we could confront the soviet union and we did win that confrontation. But Ronald Reagan could go to the other side of the aisle. Its always been talked about. Sit down with tip oneill and talk about what was good for america. He could unite us across partisan lines to do great legislation and to help us set up to win the cold war. So, we need to ask our leaders to follow that example more, that we are not enemies in politics. We have differences, but we are all trying to make america better. And we can all certainly hope and work toward that goal. Doctor rice, covid has exposed the divides in our country. The economic divide, the racial divide, certainly the educational divide. Talk for a minute about how thats happening. Its not as if we didnt know there was inequality of opportunity in this country, that we didnt know there was racism in this country. But talk about how you see whats happened this year with covid and what it has exposed. Covid has exposed the deep inequalities in our system. And you really put your finger on the two inequalities that are most obvious. If you are a knowledge worker, if you are like us, you were telling me you could produce the news hour from your homes, you havent lost the beat, your continuing to be productive. Yes, maybe its a problem of putting your wanders into the room or how do you have your kids at home at the same time, but we can keep doing our work. And some would say weve even been better at doing our work. If you have to go to the restaurant or the shop floor, youre unemployed. So, the kind of work that you have, the kind of education that you have has really helped determine how well you are getting through this covid crisis on the work side. On the education side, its even more dramatic. There are so many kids that school is a refuge, a refuge from a bad home, a refuge where a kid has inspiring determination to get better and really has to overcome home in order to do it. Well, now that kid is at home. When we think about the potential learning loss when i was about to be in first grade, the state of alabama in its wisdom said if you didnt turn 6 before october 31st, you had to go to school. My mother was a schoolteacher. Took a year off and she taught me at home. Now, by the time she finished with me, i think i was probably third or fourth grade in most things. But now think about the kid whose parents dont speak english, who cant help them with that homework, who cant hire the tutor to put together the kids in pods as some people are doing in parts of our country. So, the inequality is growing. And i am concerned that i dont think we have enough conversation about this cost of shutting down the schools. To be sure, i understand the safety concerns. I understand the safety concerns of the teachers. I also understand that this is a very difficult tradeoff that were making, that these kids have lost a year and may lose even more. What do you think the school should be doing, the school systems, the School Leaders should be doing that theyre not doing . Clearly theyve given this a lot of thought. There have been analysts, meetings, conversations, research thats been done in the short period of time we have. Look at Virtual Learning. Seems to me many of them, most of them, are trying to do the right thing. What else do they need to be doing . Well, perhaps trying to be more creative. I do think youre right. I think people are trying to do the right things. But if we could find a way to think not just about what we would have done in the classroom in terms of teaching math or science, but also how were supporting the kids in other aspects, particularly poor kids. So, for instance, one thing that widens the gap is after the time that youve spent virtually on todays lessons, contrast what happens in the home of a poor kid and the home of a kid who comes from parents with means. I know after School Activities for kids that are healthy and extended learning and continuing to push the kid to keep learning. Is that happening for poor kids . The boys and girls clubs are trying to help fill the gap with the essay contests and maybe some kind of after School Debate club or something. I think we cant just think that the learning loss comes during the four, five hours a day that youre trying to engage in Virtual Learning. But its also everything that happens outside of the classroom but that is tied to the school that is important. One thing ive been impressed with is i know that theres been a lot of attention given to the children for whom school is the place to get healthy meals. And i know that people are paying a lot of attention to that. I also think you have to Pay Attention to the activity side of it. Thats a part of the extended learning day. And i know teachers are tired and i know theyve got their own issues at home and that its hard. But somebodys got to take up that slack so that the after School Environment is equal, in a sense, for kids across the spectrum. I want to keep, of course, coming back to the particular education aspects of all this. But in the meantime, as weve mentioned, this has been a year for racial reckoning, if you will, a hard look at social justice with protests across the country initially after the death of george floyd. The vast majority of them peaceful. But some leading to violence. My question to you is, you know, as we know, theres been Racial Injustice in this country. Whats different about this moment . You wrote an oped in early june, very prescient. You said you hope his death was not in vein, that the u. S. Can move on to positive action. How do you see what happened to him fitting into our reckoning on race in america . Interestingly, when it happened, of course we were all disgusted, appalled, made angry by what we saw. It was the dehumanization of a human being. The response though, for me, was encouraging because in my hometown of birmingham, alabama, if a black man died at the hands of the police, it wouldnt have been a footnote in the newspaper, let alone people going out to protest. And so i was initially very encouraged by that. But i am worried that its somehow been hijacked by people who just want to tear the system down. While yes, there are peaceful protesters, theres far too much of portland and seattle. And theres far too much of really whats happening with the painting all Law Enforcement with a broad brush, that theyre all racist. We just cant go there. So, i think the response that im most appreciative for in a sense is that people of all colors, people of all ages wanted to go and say this isnt okay. But if i look at what happened in the 60s, there were the protests. We remember selma and montgomery, and weve just remembered the great john lewis and the marches. And i was a kid in birmingham. I remember the protests in kelly ingram park right there next to 16th Street Baptist Church where those little girls were bombed. Weve just come through the 57th anniversary of that on september 15th. I remember the protests and the violence and bull connors police dogs and all of that. But i also know that it wasnt just protests that got us to 64 and 65 in legislation. It was a legislative agenda. It was also the use of the courts. Thurgood marshall and the naacp had been taking cases to courts since the 30s to find places they could break down segregation. So, you have to use the institutions in addition to just protesting. I would also say to every american as i try to say in that Washington Post piece, each of us has to decide what our role is going to be in bringing Racial Justice. Its really a hard issue. Judy, my dna is 40 european. Thats because my great grandmother was the daughter of a slave owner. And i have ancestors who were slave owners and slaves. This is a deep wound in america. It is, in fact, a birth defect at our founding. So, each of us has to say what can i do, what conversation can i have . What am i most concerned about in terms of the impact of race . If it is the impact of race on educational differences, what can you do about that . Its maybe as small or what you would consider insignificant, but it isnt. Go work at a boys and girls club. Do something personally in your community because thats how americans have always responded. If 300 million of us have that attitude, were going to be a better place. No question. There is individual responsibility. And what about responsibility from our political people. What role do you think they play in wrestling with this . Well, certainly our political leaders have to set tone. And we need a tone that brings us together, not that divides us. They also have an obligation to think about what we need to do in terms of systems and infrastructure. So, for instance, police reform. We all know that we need to have police reform. Just before this, of course, weve gotten landmark criminal justice reform. So, we can get it done. And we did that across partisan lines. So, trying to take that, again, is important. I also think we need to look at infrastructure. If you dont have access to broadband now, its like not having access to electricity or running water. How about a National Project on broadband. We need some National Projects. How about National Service . Ive been a big advocate, along with general stan chrrystal and some others of getting to do voluntary National Service. A lot of kids are taking a gap year in college. What are they doing with the gap year . Maybe you could study. But maybe you could also find a way to go into a neighborhood that you would otherwise not know those people and help in that neighborhood and get to know them. Because when we get to know each other as human beings and we recognize whatever difficulties were going through, there are people who are going through much more difficult circumstances. Were made better for it. So, along the entire spectrum, from what leaders can do in terms of legislation and infrastructure to what we individually can do, we have a real opportunity to address Racial Disparities and the witchs brew that is when Racial Disparities meet poverty. That is when our country is most challenged. And how do you get that attitude across to americans who dont recognize that ther