Walter mondale. Our panelists for tonights debate on defense and Foreign Policy issues are georgie anne geyer, syndicated columnist for universal press syndicate, marvin kalb, chief Diplomatic Correspondent for nbc news, morton kondracke, executive editor of the new republic magazine, and henry trewhitt, Diplomatic Correspondent for the baltimore sun. Edwin newman, formerly of nbc news and now a syndicated columnist for king features, is our moderator. Ed . Edwin dorothy ridings, thank you. A brief word about our procedure tonight. The first question will go to mr. Mondale. Hell have two and a half minutes to reply. Then the panel member who put the question will ask a followup. The answer to that will be limited to one minute. After that, the same question will be put to president reagan. Again, there will be a followup. And then each man will have one minute for rebuttal. The second question will go to president reagan first. After that, the alternating will continue. At the end there will be fourminute summations, with president reagan going last. We have asked the questioners to be brief. Lets begin. Ms. Geyer, your question to mr. Mondale. Georgie mr. Mondale, two related questions on the crucial issue of Central America. You and the Democratic Party have said that the only policy toward the horrendous civil wars in Central America should be on the Economic Development and negotiations, with perhaps a quarantine of marxist nicaragua. Do you believe that these answers would in any way solve the bitter conflicts there . Do you really believe that there is no need to resort to force at all . Are not the solutions to Central Americas gnawing problems simply, again, too weak and too late . V. P. Mondale i believe that the question oversimplifies the difficulties of what we must do in Central America. Our objectives ought to be to strengthen the democracies, to stop communist and other extremist influences, and stabilize the community in that area. To do that we need a threepronged attack, one is military assistance to our friends who are being pressured, secondly, a strong and sophisticated Economic Aid Program and Human Rights Program that offers a better life and a sharper alternative to the alternative offered by the totalitarians who oppose us, and finally, a strong diplomatic effort that pursues the possibilities of peace in the area. Thats one of the big disagreements that we have with the president , that they have not pursued the diplomatic opportunities either within el salvador or as between the countries and have lost time during which we might have been able to achieve a peace. This brings up the whole question of what president ial leadership is all about. I think the lesson in Central America, this recent embarrassment in nicaragua where we are giving instructions for hired assassins, hiring criminals, and the rest, all of this has strengthened our opponents. A president must not only assure that were tough, but we must also be wise and smart in the exercise of that power. We saw the same thing in lebanon, where we spent a good deal of americas assets. But because the leadership of this government did not pursue wise policies, we have been humiliated, and our opponents are stronger. The bottom line of National Strength is that the president must be in command, he must lead. And when a president doesnt know that submarine missiles are recallable, says that 70 of our Strategic Forces are conventional, discovers three years into his administration that our arms control efforts have failed because he didnt know that most soviet missiles were on land, these are things a president must know to command. A president is called the commander in chief, and hes called that because hes supposed to be in charge of the facts and run our government and strengthen our nation. Georgie mr. Mondale, if i could broaden the question just a little bit. Since world war ii, every conflict that we as americans have been involved with has been in nonconventional or irregular terms. And yet we keep fighting in conventional or traditional military terms. The Central American wars are very much in the same pattern as china, as lebanon, as iran, as cuba, in their early days. Do you see any possibility that we are going to realize the change in warfare in our time, or react to it in those terms . V. P. Mondale we absolutely must, which is why i responded to your first question the way i did. Its much more complex. You must understand the region, you must understand the politics in the area, you must provide a strong alternative, and you must show strength, and all at the same time. Thats why i object to the covert action in nicaragua. Thats a classic example of a strategy thats embarrassed us, strengthened our opposition, and undermined the moral authority of our people and our country in the region. Strength requires knowledge, command. Weve seen in the nicaraguan example a policy that has actually hurt us, strengthened our opposition, and undermined the moral authority of our country in that region. Georgie mr. President , in the last few months it has seemed more and more that your policies in Central America were beginning to work. Yet, just at this moment, we are confronted with the extraordinary story of a cia guerrilla manual for the antisandinista contras whom we are backing, which advocates not only assassinations of sandinistas but the hiring of criminals to assassinate the guerrillas we are supporting in order to create martyrs. Is this not, in effect, our own statesupported terrorism . Pres. Reagan no, but im glad you asked that question, because i know its on many peoples minds. I have ordered an investigation. I know that the cia is already Going Forward with one. We have a gentleman down in nicaragua who is on contract to the cia, advising, supposedly on military tactics, the contras, and he drew up this manual. It was turned over to the agency head of the cia in nicaragua to be printed. And a number of pages were excised by that agency head there, the man in charge, and he sent it on up here to cia, where more pages were excised before it was printed. But some way or other, there were 12 of the original copies that got out down there and were not submitted for this printing process by the cia. Now, those are the details as we have them, and as soon as we have an investigation and find out where any blame lies for the few that did not get excised or changed, we certainly are going to do something about that. Well take the proper action at the proper time. I was very interested to hear about Central America and our process down there, and i thought for a moment that instead of a debate i was going to find mr. Mondale in complete agreement with what were doing, because the plan that he has outlined is the one weve been following for quite some time, including diplomatic processes throughout Central America and working closely with the contadora group. So, i can only tell you about the manual, that were not in the habit of assigning guilt before there has been proper evidence produced and proof of that guilt. But if guilt is established, whoever is guilty, we will treat with that situation then, and they will be removed. Georgie well, mr. President , you are implying then that the cia in nicaragua is directing the contras there. Id also like to ask whether having the cia investigate its own manual in such a sensitive area is not sort of like sending the fox into the chicken coop a second time . Pres. Reagan im afraid i misspoke when i said a cia head in nicaragua. Theres not someone there directing all of this activity. There are, as you know, cia men stationed in other countries in the world and, certainly, in Central America. And so it was a man down there in that area that this was delivered to, and he recognized that what was in that manual was in direct contravention of my own executive order, in december of 1981, that we would have nothing to do with regard to political assassinations. Edwin mr. Mondale, your rebuttal. V. P. Mondale what is a president charged with doing when he takes his oath of office . He raises his right hand and takes an oath of office to take care to faithfully execute the laws of the land. A president cant know everything, but a president has to know those things that are essential to his leadership and the enforcement of our laws. This manual, several thousands of which were produced, was distributed, ordering political assassinations, hiring of criminals, and other forms of terrorism. Some of it was excised, but the part dealing with political terrorism was continued. How can this happen . How can something this serious occur in an administration and have a president of the United States in a situation like this say he didnt know . A president must know these i dont know which is worse, not knowing or knowing and not stopping it. And what about the mining of the harbors in nicaragua which violated International Law . This has hurt this country, and a president is supposed to command. Edwin mr. President , your rebuttal. Pres. Reagan yes. I have so many things there to respond to, im going to pick out something you said earlier. Youve been all over the country repeating something that, i will admit, the press has also been repeating, that i believed that Nuclear Missiles could be fired and then called back. I never, ever conceived of such a thing. I never said any such thing. In a discussion of our strategic arms negotiations, i said that submarines carrying missiles and airplanes carrying missiles were more conventionaltype weapons, not as destabilizing as the landbased missiles, and that they were also weapons that, or carriers, that if they were sent out and there was a change, you could call them back before they had launched their missiles. But i hope that from here on you will no longer be saying that particular thing, which is absolutely false. How anyone could think that any sane person would believe you could call back a nuclear missile. I think is as ridiculous as the whole concept has been. So thank you for giving me a chance to straighten the record. Im sure that you appreciate that. , your question to the president. Alson mr. President , you youve often described the soviet union as an evil empire, but you said if they want to keep their mickey mouse system they can. Do you want to reestablish to taunt or rollback their empire . Ive said exactly what i believe about the soviet union. I believe many of the things they have done are people in any concept of malady that we have. As the twognize that great superpowers in the world we have to live with each other. I said we do not like their system, they do not like ours. We will not change their system and they better not try to change ours. Between us, we can destroy the world or we can save it. I suggested that certainly it was to their common interest, along with hours, to avoid a conflict and to attempt to save the world and remove the Nuclear Weapons. Established as we better understanding. I think in dealing with the soviet union, one has to be realistic. I know mr. Mondale has made statements as if they were just people like ourselves and if they were good and did something nice they would respond accordingly. The result was unilateral disarmament. B1. Nceled the what did we get . Nothing. The soviet union has been engaged in the biggest military buildup in the history of man come at the same time we tried the policy of unilateral disarmament, of weakness. Defensere putting up a of our own and ive made it very plain to them we seek no superiority. We simply are going to provide a deterrent so it will be too costly for them if they are nursing any ideas of aggression against us. They claim they are not. I made it plain to them we are not. No change in my attitude at all. I thought when i came into office it was time there was realistic talk to and about the soviet union. Their get we did get attention. Marvin a related question. Since world war ii the vital interests of the United States have been defined by treaty commitments and president ial proclamations. Aside from what is obvious, such as nato, which countries, which regions in the world you regard as Vital National interests of this country, meaning you would send american troops to fight if they were in danger. Pres. Reagan you have added a hypothetical at the end about where we would send troops in to fight. I am not going to make the decision as to what the tactics could be. Obviously there are a number of areas in the world of importance to us. One is the middle east. That is of interest to the whole western world and industrialized nations because of the great supply of energy on which so many depend. America ares in vital to us. , tryingorking right now to be of help in Southern Africa with regards to the independence bia and the removal of cuban circuits from angola. There are great many interests. We have a great interest in the pacific basin. That is where i think the future of the world lies. One andgoing to pick up hypothetically say we would send troops there. Edwin im sorry, your time was up. Marvin mr. Mondale, youve describe the soviet leaders as cynical, ruthless, and dangerous. In that case, what makes you think the summit meetings with them you have proposed would result in agreements that would satisfy the interests of this country . V. P. Mondale the only type of agreements to reach the soviet union are the type specifically defined, so we know exactly what they must do, subject to full verification, which means we know every date whether they are living up to it, and followups wherever we find suggestions they are violating it, and the strongest possible terms. I have no illusions about the soviet Union Leadership or the nature of that state. They are a top and ruthless adversary. We must be prepared to meet that challenge and i would. President rt with the s despite all of those differences, we must, as past president s have done, meet on the Common Ground of survival. The president has opposed every arms control agreement by every president of both Political Parties since the bomb went off. He now completes this term with no progress towards arms control at all, but with a very dangerous arms race underway instead. There are now over 2000 more warheads pointed at us today than there were when he was sworn in, and that does not strengthen us. Realistic andy the nature of that leadership, but we must grind away and talk to find ways of reducing these differences, particularly where arms races are concerned and other dangerous exercises of soviet power. There will be no unilateral disarmament under my administration. I will keep this nation strong. I understand exactly what the soviets are up to, but that, too , is a part of National Strength. To do that, a president must know what is essential to command and leadership and strength. That is where the president s failure to master the essential elements of arms control has paused us dearly. These four years, three years into this administration he said he just discovered most soviet missiles are on land and that is why his proposal to not work. I invite the American People tomorrow, because i will issue the statement, quoting president reagan. He said exactly what i said he said. He said these missiles were less dangerous than Ballistic Missiles because you could fire them and you could recall them if you decided there had been a miscalculation. A president must know those things. Related question on Eastern Europe. Do accept the conventional diplomatic wisdom that Eastern Europe is the soviet sphere of influence, and if you do, what could a Mondale Administration do to help the people of Eastern Europe achieve the eastern achieve the human rights guaranteed to them as a result of the helsinki accords. The central strategy of the United States ought not to accept any soviet control over Eastern Europe. We have to deal with each of the country separately and pursue strategies that help them pull away from their dependence upon the soviet union, where the soviet union has acted irresponsibly, especially in poland, i believe we ought to assist that western credit extended to the soviet union bear the market rate. Make the soviets pay for their irresponsibility. That is a very important objective, to make certain we continue to look forward to progress towards greater independence by these nations and work with each of them separately. Edwin mr. President , your rebuttal. I will not respond to the repetitions of falsehoods respondagan i will not to the repetitions of falsehoods and already stated. I know mr. Mondale has a commercial where he is on the deck of the nimitz watching f14s takeoff, yet if he had had his way when the nimitz was being planned he would been deep in the water because there were not have been any nimitz to stand on. He was against it. He was against the f14, he was against the m1 tank, he was against the b1 bomber, he wanted to bring home half of the American Forces in europe. He has a record of weakness with regard to our National Defense that is second to none. He was on that side throughout all these years in the senate and he opposed even president carter when president carter wanted to increase the defense budget. Edwin mr. Mondale, your rebuttal. I accept your commitment to peace, but i want accept a commitment to strong National Defense. I propose a budget that would increase our nati