President george bush, arkansas governor bill clinton and independent candidate ross perot. Here now is mr. Ross perot. Ladies and gentlemen. [applause] good to see you thank you. Now, governor clinton. [applause] and now, president bush. [applause] about 30 seconds, we will be going on the air. Good evening and welcome to the first of three debates among the major candidates for president of the United States, sponsored by the commission on president ial debates. The candidates are, independent candidate ross perot, governor bill clinton, the democratic nominee, and president george bush, the republican nominee. I am jim lehrer of the news hour on pbs and i will be the moderator for this 90 minute event, which is taking place before an audience here in the Athletic Complex on the campus of Washington University in st. Louis, missouri. Three journalists will be asking questions tonight. They are john mashek of the boston globe, ann compton of abc news and sander vanocur, a freelance journalist. We will follow a format agreed to by representatives of the clinton and bush campaigns. That agreement contains no restrictions on the content or subject matter of the questions. Each candidate will have up to two minutes for a closing statement. The order of those, as well as the questioning, was determined by a drawing. The first question goes to mr. Perot. He will have two minutes to answer, to be followed by rebuttals of one minute each by governor clinton and then president bush. Gentlemen, good evening. Good evening. The first topic tonight is what separates each of you from the other. Mr. Perot, what do you believe tonight is the single most important separating issue of this campaign . I think the principal issue that separates me is that five and a half Million People came together on their own and put me on the ballot. I was not put on the ballot by either of the two parties. I was not put on the ballot by any pack money, by any foreign lobby money, by any special interest money. This is a movement that came from the people. This is the way the framers of the constitution intended our government to be. A government that comes from the people. Over time, we have developed a government that comes at the people, it comes from the top down, where the people are more or less treated as objects to be programed during the campaign with commercials and media events and their messages and personal attacks and things of that nature. The thing that separates my candidacy and makes it unique is that this came from millions of people in 50 states all over this country who wanted a candidate that worked and belonged to nobody but them. I go into this race as their servant and i belong to them. So this comes from the people. Governor clinton, one minute response. The most important distinction in this campaign is that i represent real hope for change. A departure from trickle down economics. A departure from tax and spend economics to invest and grow. But before i can do that, i must challenge the American People to change and they must decide. Tonight, i say to the president , mr. Bush, for 12 years you had it your way. Youve had your chance and it didnt work. Its time to change. I want to bring that change to the American People, but we must all decide first we have the courage to change hope in a better tomorrow. But president bush, one minute response, sir. I think one thing that distinguishes is experience. I think weve dramatically changed the world. I will talk about that a little bit later, but the changes are mindboggling for world peace. Kids go to bed at night without the same fear of nuclear war. And change for change is sake isnt enough. We saw that message in the late seventies when we heard a lot about change. Well the misery index went why right through the roof. My Economic Program i think is the kind of change we want. The way were going to get it done is we are going to have a brandnew congress. A lot of them are thrown out because of all of these candles. I will sit down with them, democrats and republicans alike, and work for my agenda for american renewal, which represents real change. What i would say if you have to separate out, i think its experience at this level. Governor clinton, how do you respond . You have two minutes on the question of experience. He says that is what distinguishes him from the other two of you. I believe experience counts, but its not everything. The, judgment and the record that i have amassed in my state also should count for something. Ive worked hard to create good jobs and to educate people. My state now ranks first in the country and job growth this year. Fourth in income growth. Fourth in the reduction of poverty. Third and Overall Economic performance according to major news magazine. Thats because we believe in investing in education and jobs. We have to change in this country. You know, my wife hillary gave me a book about a year ago in which the author insanity as just doing the same whole thing over and over again and expecting a different result. We have got to have the courage to change. Experience is important, yes, ive gotten a lot of good experience in dealing with ordinary people over the last year and months. Ive touched more peoples lives and seen more heartbreak and hope, more pain and more promise, than anybody else whos running for president this year. I think the American People deserve better than they are getting. We have gone from first to 13th in the world and wages in the last 12 years. Since mr. Bush and mr. Reagan have been in. Personal income has dropped while people have worked harder in the last four years. There has been twice as many bankruptcies as new jobs created. We need a new approach. The same old experience is not relevant. We are living in a new world after the cold war and what works in this new world is not trickle down, not government for the benefit of the privileged view, not tax and spend, but a commitment to invest in american jobs and american education. Controlling American Health care costs and bringing the American People together. That is what works and you can have the right kind of experience and the wrong kind of experience. Mine is rooted in the real lives of real people and it will bring real results if we have the courage to change. President bush, one minute to respond. I just thought of another big difference here. I dont believe mr. Perot feels this way, but i know governor clinton did because i want to accurately quote him. I think he said that the country is coming apart at the seams. Now, i know that the only way he can win is to make everybody believe the economy is worse than it is. But this country is not coming apart at the seams for heaven sakes. We are the United States of america. In spite of the economic problems, we are the most respected economy around the world. Many would trade for it. Weve been caught up in a global slowdown. We can do much much better, but we ought not try to convince the American People that america is a country that is coming apart at the seams. I would hate to be running for president and think that the only way that i could win would be to convince everybody how horrible things are. Yes there are big problems, and yes people are hurting, but i believe that this agenda for america that i have, is the answer to do it. And i believe we can get it done now, and if we did it in the past, because youre gonna have a whole new brand people in the congress that are gonna have to listen to the same American People and listening to him. Mr. Perot a response . While he has a point. I dont have any experience on running a 14 trillion dollar debt. I dont have any experience in dreadlock government, where nobody takes responsibility for anything and everybody blames everybody else. I dont have any experience in creating the Worst Public School system in the industrial world, and in the prime rib society. But i do have a lot of experience and getting things done. So if were at a point in history, where we want to stop talking and do it, ive got a lot of experience and figuring out how to solve problems, making the solutions work, and moving on to the next one. Ive got a lot of experience in not taking ten years to solve a ten minute problem. So if its time for action, i think i have experience. If its more time for dreadlock, and finger pointing, im the wrong man. President bush, the president goes to you, you have two minutes. Are there important issues of character separating him from these other two men . I think the American People should be the judge of that. I think character is a very important question. I said something the other day, where was accused of being like joe mccarthy. Because i questioned, put it this way, i dont think its wrong to demonstrate against your own country, or organize demonstrations against iran country in foreign soil. I just think its wrong. Maybe they say well its youthful indiscretion. I was 19, or 20, flying of an Aircraft Carrier in that shake me to be the commanderinchief of the air forces. And im sorry, but demonstrating, its not a question of patriotism, its a question of character and judgment. They get on me, bill has gone on me about read my lips, and when i make a mistake i will admit it. But he has made it, not admitted a mistake, and i just find it impossible to understand how an american can demonstrate against his own country, in a foreign land. Organizing demonstrations against it, when young men are held in prison or in hanoi, or kids are getting drafted. Some say while youre in old fashion, maybe an air maybe i am. But i just dont think thats right. Now whether its character, or judgment, whatever it is, i have a big difference here on this issue. And so well just have to see how it plays out. But i couldnt do that. And i dont think most americans can do that, and they all say well it was a long time ago. Will then lets admit it. I made a terrible mistake. How can you be commanderinchief of the armed forces and have some kids say, when you have to make it up decision, like i didnt panama, or in the weight, and have some good jump jump up. Well the commanderinchief was organizing demonstrations halfway around the world. During another era. So there are differences. Thats about the main area where we have a difference. I dont know about, well talk about that a little bit, with ross in a bit. Miss borough, you have one minute. I think the American People make their own decisions, they have their own character. And that a time where we have work to do, and we need action, i think they need to clearly understand the background of each person. I think the press can play a huge role in making sure that the backgrounds are clearly presented in objective ways. Then, you make a decision. Certain people you want in the white house, should have the character to be there. But, i think its very important to measure when things occur, if they are heard when you were a young person in your formative years. Or did new york or when you were a senior official, in the government. When you are a senior official in the government, spending billions of dollars in taxpayer money, and you are mature individual, and you make the mistake, then that was on our take. You make it as a young man,. So i would say, just you know, look at all three of us, decide who you think will get the job, take that person in november. Because believe me, as ive said before, the party is over, and its time for the cleanup crew. And we do have to have change, and people who never take responsibility for anything, when it happens on their watch. Its people who are in charge. Time is. Up your times. Up [laughs] time is. Up more. Later governor clinton, you have one minute. Ross gave a good answer, but i have to respond directly to mr. Bush. You have questioned my patriotism. You even brought some right wing congressmen into the white house to a top me for going to russia, in 1969, 1970. When over 55,000 other americans stated. Now i honor your service in world war ii. I honor mr. Borough service in uniform, and the service of every men and women who ever served. Including admiral crowd, who was your term of the joint, chief in supporting the. But when joe mccarthy went around this country, attacking peoples patriotism, he was wrong. He was wrong. And a senator from connecticut stood up to him, named press scott bush. Your father was right to stand up to joe mccarthy, you were wrong to attack my patriotism. I was opposed to the war, but i love my country. And we need a president who can bring this country together, not divide it. Weve had enough division. I want to unified country. [applause] all right all right move now to the subject of taxes and, spending the question goes to governor clinton for a two minute answer. It will be asked by ann compton. Governor clinton can you lock in a level, here tonight, on a where middle income families can be guaranteed a tax cut, or at the very least, at what income level they can be guaranteed no tax increase . The tax increase i have proposed triggers in our family incomes of 200,000 dollars in above. Those are the people who, in the 19 eighties, had their incomes go up, while their taxes went down. Middle class people defined as people with incomes of 52,000 dollars and down, had their incomes go down, while their taxes went up. In the reagan and bush years, because of six increases in the payroll taxes. So that is where my income limit would trigger. So there would be no tax increases below 200,000. My plan, notwithstanding my opponents, admire planned triggers ad course and comes a families of 200,000 and above. And we want to give modest middle class and relief to restore some fairness, especially since the middle class people with families of income of under 60,000 dollars. In addition to that, the money that i raised from upper income people, and from asking Foreign Corporations just to pay the same income on their income earned in america, that american corporations do, will be used to gave it back to upper income people. I want to give people permanent incentives on investment tax credit, like president kennedy, in the congress inaugurated, in the early sixties. To get industry moving again. A resource in development acts credit, low Income Housing tax, oh though term capital for new business and business expansion. We have to have no more trickle down, we dont need acrosstheboard or tax cut for the wealthy for nothing. We need to say here is your tax incentive, if you create american jobs, the Old Fashioned way. Id like to create more millionaires then were created on the mr. Bush and reagan, but i dont want to have for years where we have no growth in the private sector, and thats what happened in the last four years. We are down 35,000 jobs in the private sector. We need to invest and grow, and thats what i wanted to. President bush, one minute. Well i have to correct one thing. I didnt question the mans patriotism. I questioned his judgment and his character. What he did in moscow, thats fine. When he explained it, he did, i accept. That but i dont accept his demonstrating in organizing demonstrations in a foreign country, when your country is at war. I am sorry, i cannot accept that. In terms of this one on taxes, spells out the biggest difference between. As i do not believe we need to go back to them on day old proposal of the caucus proposal of tax instead. Governor clinton says 200, 000, but he also says he wants to raise 150 billion. The two pack taxing people or 200,000 will not get you 150 billion. And then when you added to his old other spending proposals, regrettably, its ended up sucking to the old working man. Were gonna sold the rich, were gonna soak the rich, it always ends up being the report cabdriver, or the working men that ends up being the bill. So i just have a different approach. I believe the way to get the deficit down is to control the growth of mandatory spending programs. And not raise taxes on the American People. Thats a big difference there. Mr. Perot, one minute. [applause] youve got to have a growing expanding job, to have a growing expanding tax base. Right now we have a flight deteriorating job base, and where it appears to be growing, is minimal ways jobs. So we have to really rebuild our job base. Thats going to take money for Infrastructure Investment to do. That i find theyre doing, and we are not. We cannot pay off the for chilean four trillion dollar debt, the industry is the future of the half paying jobs in this country, without having a revenue, were going to go through a period of shared sacrifice. Theres one challenge, its gonna be fair. Weve created a mess, we dont have too much to show for it, and we have got to fix it. And thats about all i can say on that. Okay. Next question goes to president bush, for a two minute answer. And then it will be asked by law sander vanocour. Mister president , Michael Stone said he had no plans to abide by congressional mandate, to cut u. S. Forces in europe, from 150 to 100,000 by the end of september 1996. Now, why almost 50 years after the end of world war ii, and with a total collapse of the soviet union, should american taxpayers be taxed to support armies in europe, when the europeans have plenty of money to do it for themselves . Well. Thats a good question, and the answer is, for 40 some years we kept the peace. If you look at the cost of not keeping the peace in europe, it would be exorbitant. We have reduced the number of troops that have deployed, and going to be deployed. I have cut defense spending. And the reason we can do that, is because of our fantastic success in winning the cold war. We never wouldve got there if we had gone for the Nuclear Freeze crowd. Never wouldve got there if we wouldve listened to those down wanted to cut defense spending. I think it is important that the United States stay in europe, and continue to guarantee the peace. We simply cannot pull back. Now, when anybody has a spending program, they want to spend money on at home, they said well lets get money out of the defense department. I will accept, and have accepted, the recommendations of two proven leaders. General colin powell, and secretary dick cheney, they feel the levels we are operating at and the productions i have proposed our proper. And so, i simply do not think we should go back to t