Author of fighting for hope. The National World War Ii Museum in new orleans hosted this discussion and provided the video. Greetings, everyone. I am senior director of programs at the National World War Ii Museum in new orleans and it is my pleasure to welcome all of you to what promises to be a Great Program on the history of africanamericans in combat in the United States from world war i to world war ii with everything in between and in the immediate postworld war ii years, and i am joined by three of our nations preeminent scholars on this subject. Whohost is dr. John morrow, is franklin professor of history at the university of georgia and is coauthor with our second panelist, who is professor of harlemst nyu, of rattlers in the great war, which is a fantastic book about one of the great africanamerican units in the First World War were. Our third panelist is Robert Jefferson junior, associate professor of history at the , andrsity of new mexico the author of fighting for hope. I will turn it over to dr. John morrow. Dr. Morrow thank you, ed. Welcome to the National World War Ii Museums webinar on africanamerican soldiers in combat. Me, i will beed the moderator. Jeffrey sammons will focus on the First World War, and doctored and dr. Jefferson will focus on the Second World War. I will introduce you to the context of the times in which these men served and fought. The world wars occurred during reign of White Supremacy in the United States. Segregation as well. Americansn literally had no rights that americans were bound to respect. The years were dotted with lynchings and race riots, the latter of which, often in fact, boil down to being white massacres of black people. Ande a black person, consequently a black man, in the wereary meant the odds stacked against you, although africanamericans had served in warsn all the words the american colonies and the u. S. Had waged. Had relegated all black positions ofnial servitude, menial duties and positions of servitude. World war i, world war ii, until the very end of world war ii, although black sailors had served as fullfledged seamen throughout the 19th century. And the marines, who had been allwhite by inclamation and 1798 1798, only allowed black marines in in world war ii to perform logistical and supply duties. Onthe focus today adds up the u. S. Army. In the u. S. Army, white southerners set the tone for the treatment of africanamerican soldiers in both wars. And you might ask why. ,ecause the army reflecting the claims of southern politicians and officers, believed that southern black mennderstood better than other whites. But understood meant that they theumed black men lacked courage, initiative, and intelligence to be combat officers,much less , certainly notid pilots of combat planes. So what you had was this array of prejudices ranged against you. This presumption that white southern officers should lead black men meant that most black soldiers were condemned to the command of the most prejudiced officers in the u. S. Army, with some exceptions, but by and large this was the case. Went from Division Commanders all the way down to company commanders, and i would include the top brass of the the men whose attitudes denigrated the potential for black men for combat. Note are officers who did hesitate to call their men nword,y the inward which i am not using today, because High School Students ,ight end up using this, or bo , in order to often portray them as cowards and criminals. Although black soldiers fought well in world war one, the same racist conditions and attitudes prevailed in the Second World War. Became,why world war ii for africanamericans, a struggle for double victory victory over fascism abroad and racism at home. As we returned with my two colleagues to the first half of the 19th century, ask yourself, why did africanamerican soldiers who went to fight and die for their country have to serve under such abysmal circumstances . Individuals refer to this situation as sad. I have heard that term used. It was not sad. It was tragic. And this treatment occurred deliberately and purposely because what was at stake was equal rights for black americans in the United States. This is a story of tragedy and ultimate triumph, one against the odds and at the sacrifice of in blood of black americans the service of their country. It is my pleasure now to turn the program over to professor sammons first and then to professor jefferson. Dr. Sammons thank you, professor morrow. Blacks knew all too well this history of denigration and disparagement. Carpenter, a miami pastor, wrote in 1913, as a soldier, the American Negro equals any soldier in the world. We have every reason to be proud of our contribution to this government in times of war, but above that, we boast that, among our troops, not in a single case is there on record cowardice or the failure of a negro soldier to do his full duty. Yet in spite of this, there are those who insist that the negro has no flag. He has a flag. 1775, in 1812,n in 1863, and in 1898. He who says we have no flag denies the valor and patriotism onthousands of negros who, hundreds of battlefields, have proved their worth as soldiers and as men. Carpenter predicted that if black soldiers were not treated properly that there would be a bloody uprising unparalleled in the history of the world and, in that came to 1919ion in the summer of as chicago, washington, omaha, and in 1921, we heard so much about toll so, actually occurred, along with other cities and towns that corrupted in racial violence that resulted in the loss of hundreds of lives. In 1863, of course, Frederick Douglass pressed hard for the inclusion of black troops in the war to end slavery and goaded actually, told him he was fighting with a soft white whiteblack hand hand, the black hand tied behind its back, and he needed to use the iron fist of the black hand to defeat the confederacy. And Paul Laurence dunbar commented on blacks in the civil war. Rights, in the early days, you scorn them scorned them. Is spread abroad, then you called the colored soldiers, and the answer to your call. That has been repeated throughout the history of america, that only in cases of emergency or desperation or soldier has the black being used and then discarded like torn tissues or used tissues afterward. Continue to blacks press for service in the military . Blacks understood the importance of the military to the american psyche, to its actual existence. Crispushristmas addicks is considered to be the Crispus Atticus is considered casualty of the revolutionary war, the first blow against the British Occupation and tyranny. Continue tod blacks press for service . One,se they realized that, fighting in battle can bring freedom, but it also can bring respect, and if not seen by whites, it is certainly seen by other blacks. William pickett, moving on to world war i, told us why the black fought in world war i, and that is that blacks were able to establish their character as opposed to reputation, which is given to someone by others. Character is intrinsic. And he says that the character of black americans shown clearly in the black americans shone clearly in the light of war. Suddenly, the most undesirable element in the United States became the most reliable element, as symbolized and recognized by the calling out of president wilson of black National Guard troops to protect the white house. Blackse war had allowed from africa and america the opportunity to make their first great record as a modern international factor, a positive world influence, with the lesson never to be lost on blacks. World war i helped to produce a selfconfident new negro and all the change they came later of much to forwardlooking and forward moving people at that time. World war i has been written off as a lost cause in which blacks fought blindly for nothing, to be treated in the same way that they had before the war after the war. This could not be farther from the truth. Laidacks in world war i the foundation for what would happen in the interwar. Interwar period and what would happen in world war ii. I want to emphasize the point again, especially for students, that what is really important about these events and experiences is the effect they have on blacks themselves and what blacks internalize from them and not what others might represent them to be. I . What happens in world war 369th,ant to use the which was the 15th new york National Guard and the first black National Guard unit in new york state, not established until 1916, as a case study for the black experience in world war i. And it certainly is representative in many respects, but also different and different for very important reasons. After a prolonged struggle to become recognized as a National Guard unit, this happens, as i indicated, in 1916. And the unit will go on to serve with the french army. And this is one of the important the 15thons between new york National Guard, the 369th regiment and other africanamerican troops. Aso, the fact that they were National Guard unit and did not, at least at the beginning of their experience in combat, have those southern officers that professor morrow has referred to. Most of the officers came from the northeast and especially new york. And this made in important difference too, but there positioning with the french and this made an important difference too, but their positioning with the french was important. And they had five black officers in the regiment, four of whom were actually combat officers in the war. They were removed for reasons that i cannot get into now, except there was a movement by general pershing to not have any black officers actually be in the position to command white inserted,ho would be many of them replacement officers, some of them from the south. And this brings me to an important point about blacks is officers. And when that disparagement and integration occurs after the war disparagement and denigration occurs after the war, led by colonel allen greer, who was chief of staff of the 92nd leesion, also by robert e bullard, who was from alabama, commanded black troops in the spanishamerican war. I can tell you that familiarity did breed contempt in his mind about the black soldier. He would lead this campaign to disparage the black soldier, which would be picked up later in an official report that i will refer to at the end of my talk, the Army War College study of 1925. But i want to Say Something about black officers, and lets point to the nations leading military academy. Thefirst black graduate of United States military academy was henry ossian flipper. That happened in 1877, so in reconstruction. The second was John Hanks Alexander in 1887. And the third was charles young, and we have an image of what actuallyoung, who should have become the first black general in the united hetes military, but after reached the rank of colonel, was determined to have been unfit physically to continue in active service. And this came out of a complaint by a white southern lieutenant who served under young in the ninth cavalry and was picked up by a United States senator from mississippi and actually forced Woodrow Wilson and his secretary of war to inactivate young. So young is on the right, prematurely aged because of the way he was treated. Young tried to prove his fitness for service by taking a horse from ohio to washington, d. C. Not only did he ride it, he walked the horse a part of the way in order to rest the horse. And when he arrived, military Officials Say that said that you have only proven the fitness of the horse, not yourself. Interestingly, after the war, young was reinstated, sent to africa, and died of a tropical fever. So it was clear that this man was removed from service because the United States was not ready for a black general. And this takes me back to Something Else that occurred after the civil war that is very important for us to understand, and that is the origins of the segregated army. Now, we know there were black units in the civil war, most notably the 54th massachusetts its brotherd then or Sister Organization the 55th. In 1866, the u. S. Government passed a law establishing the segregated army in law. And out of that came the ninth calvary valrys cavalries. A graduate captain, of west point from alabama, saidew steele, in 1911, this was a worse act than anything he saw in the laws of mississippi and alabama at the time in terms of solidifying secondclass citizenship for blacks. And why was that done . In my opinion, it was done because to have integrated the United States military would have been an active social equality, which even the most enlightened sort of advocates of black rights did not support. So here we have something that, as professor jefferson will show us, will last until the korean war, the segregated United States army. 369th fights with the front, is sent to the after one month of training. Receive awill guerre, anduar de 174 individuals would also receive that honor, and one of the greatest heroes of world war i, who only recently has received the recognition that he deserved, is henry. Johnson. We have a couple slides of Henry Johnson. He is the bottom figure on the page on the right side. Henry johnson received the crois palm, thewith largest honor bestowed by order of the army. A number of 24, and fought them with grenades, knife,fle, bayonet, bolo and both men almost died in the process. Henry johnson would not receive an american honor until 1994 and that was the purple heart. He received the distinguished Service Cross in 2003, but there had been a campaign for Henry Johnson to receive the medal of 1980s, and it was not until 2015, under the obama administration, that Henry Johnson received the honor that he should have. And henry is not alone for not being recognized as one should. And in fact, there were some 70 black recipients of the andinguished Service Cross, recent Research Conducted by me has found that there were at least a total of eight recommended for the medal of honor and all of them were denied by general pershing personally except for fred beast freddie stours, whose case slipped through the cracks, and in 1991, he was the first to receive a medal of honor from world war i. There is no project, based in at the university and part in missouri at the center for study of the great war, attempting to do a systematic review of black soldiers in world war i for consideration for the medal of honor. Like to move on to the the recordespite that the 369th men and others as well not all of these men were from the 369th. William butler was another hero of the 369th who was recommended for the medal of honor, but so were seven others, some from the 92nd. I would like to move and we see this rendering of Henry Johnson, who looks quite different from the Henry Johnson photograph,in the riff on here we have a fieldccreadys flanders that spoke about the black sacrifice in world war i. I will move on to the next, which is actually a video of the march of the 369th on february avenue, whichifth david lewis claims is the beginning of the harlem renaissance. And what an impressive and imposing sight of these men marching in french formation, 16 apart. Anddespite their heroics the heroics of other blacks in world were one, the army in world war i, the Army War College took what people like had stated andrd made it official policy, formalized it. Man, hed to the white mentality,ior inherently weak in character. Particularly the officer, failed in the world war. And basically they said that what he was really good for was and service , that the negro officers under i am sorry, under negro officers, black soldiers displayed in aptitude itude foryed inept modern battle. Their tendency to be panic stricken can only be overcome with the leaders meaning white officers, southern officers. So we see this parade, this impressive display of black and it, and once is at once lauded and also seen as a threat. What will these men do in terms of the status quo . They be not in the case of the 369th, but others, especially those who were treated less well than members of the three 59th, they became sort of the vanguard of black militancy and the new postwar. Ement we see that formation of 16 across, a french formation, never before seen in the United States, and we are going to move up, and on my talk, with your being able to see Henry Johnson, who was clearly the hero of the moment in this tremendous black discipline and unity. I think he is coming soon, he is in a car, as henry had been in thatin the foot, leg episode. There we are. So that is Henry Johnson. Acknowledging the crowd. That ends my presentation. I look forward to your questions. Thank you very much. Dr. Morrow robert, the game goes to you. Dr. Jefferson i want to thank you, professor morrow, and the National World War Ii Museum, for inviting me to participate in this webinar. I want to follow up with discussion ofmans africanamericans in the First World War. The scene shaped the combat record of africanamerican world war ii soldiers and that is the theme, it reflected the fact that they were asked to pay a price for all who basically lived under the threat of racism at home while they were fighting against fascism abroad. Let me outline the parameters of my talk. Ant i want to do is give you overview of the africanamerican combat performance in world war ii, then i want to talk about inir performances under fire europe and the pacific, then i want to close with what i think is the legacy of the black soldier in world war ii for consideration. This is particularly striking in light of what professor sammons talked about in the First World War. Much of this seems like a broken better, but then again, it is not. Let me offer this, let me indulge you for a second by offering a vignettes. That is this. Studying the black combat experience in world war ii, i reminded of the words of sir john keegan in a noteworthy book that was published in 1976, he stated, i have not been in a youre, not near one, north nor heard of one from afar, nor seen the aftermath. He wrote in this book about his struggles to understand the phase of battle the face of battle in the waterloo but he always used that statement as a badge of humility when writing about those soldiers. Likewise, i tried to adopt a similar approach when talking about black world war ii veterans, also walking the battlefield on which they served with valor, also turning up relics of war, in studying the photographs and paintings depicting world war ii. In order to better understand what battle seemed like for them. With that said, i want to open combate africanamerican experience in world war ii can be divided into two sub themes. The first is similar to what professor sammons talked about and that is the fight for the rights to fight. Basically, the fight for racial equality at home. I think a lot of what the black world war ii soldier experienced while training stateside was deeply wrapped up and enveloped in this fight for racial equality. Then the second thing, second some theme, is the double victory strategy against fascism in europe and asia. , foryou think about this them, this battle, they saw fascism, racism as two sides of the same coin. Let me start with the fight for the right to fight and to give you a broad overview of the africanamerican overseas deployment. Totalt, almost 20 of the 1. 5 million africanamerican gis armed forces were stationed abroad during the war. The thing to remember about this war is that african americans, at the outset of the war, were clamoring for the right to participate in the war effort and they basically fought on a number of fronts. You have organizations like the National Association for the advancement of colored people and newspapers, lack weekly, that were pushing for the Roosevelt Administration to include africanamericans in this fight that they saw coming. Departmentthe war and roosevelt officials realized that africanamericans as american citizens should be allowed to participate in the war and the fight, they had to and theylans for them did this under a number of mobilization plans. 1930s, the 1937 plan talked about africanamericans would constitute a percentage in the general population in the war effort, any future war. The second thing was they also an abysmal assessment of the black servicemen and officers and all of that was derived from the First World War, the performance in the First World War, that assessment. Those plans followed black soldiers who served in world war ii. Forces,ered the armed to the time they were deployed overseas. Is, once thing africanamericans were allowed , there wasd to serve this push to find places to deploy them overseas. Early 1942 time from through 1945, foreign governments and officials in places like australia, greenland, iceland, china, great warain advised the department against sending black soldiers to their countries and what they used as a way of justifying this was the of localtic attitude white populations to the presence of black soldiers. To make matters worse, army tohorities also alluded erroneousness of extreme temperatures to block black antiaircraft troops from entering northern territories such as alaska and northwestern canada. A lot of these myths were grounded in racist determinations that go back to the early 19th century. , theall of that said africanamerican gis, they were deployed almost at the beginning and they raised a tremendous contribution to the fighting of the war itself. During the japanese bombing of pearl harbor in 1941, george texas, he answered ship, the usshis west virginia, drew enemy fire. Miller carried his wounded captain to safety before manning a machine gun himself, downing several japanese aircrafts. If for his efforts, he was awarded the navy cross. See that africanamericans , when they are presented with these moments of intense anxiety that is brought about by war and battle, they are performing quite well. Let me move on to talk about the double victory strategy that they devised in europe. This was something that was exhibited on a large scale, ofticularly on the outset the dday landing in normandy in 1944. Members of the all black in thecraft participated dday landing at normandy provided cover this is from german planes allowing invading troops and services and suppliers to wade ashore. Their efforts allowed allies to recapture nazi occupied france. Often and until recently, we dont know the story of these members who served with this antiaircraft unit. Over. En gets washed i think we would do well to Pay Attention to them because it was in that battle that they started to think about what this war was going to mean for them. With theollowed up of the express where black truckers would be arming transportation core and they were convoys that moved tons of supplies from the coast of paris to various points of the european theater of operations. These black Truck Companies drove nonstop, delivering more than 400,000 tons of supplies to armies at the front and they earned the praise of their superior officers. Them, the 761st battalion, the black panther battalion. Among the 22 black combat units that saw heavy action in the european theater was this battalion, it was attached to George Pattons third army and took part in many battles throughout france, belgium, holland, as well as germany. This group would perform so well , they received a president ial citation and one of its members from oklahoma would be posthumously awarded the medal of honor. More about medal of honor recipients later because it is about the broader discussion of the legacy of the world war ii soldiers. Photograph ofe a the fighters and with that photograph, you can see here see the pilotsu kneeling in southern italy in 1944. Of pilots were part along with the squadron and later, the 77th bombardment group, they performed with great distinction. They performed bombing on hundreds of missions. Warhawks were manned by these Tuskegee Airmen who flew provided missions and they never lost a bomber under their protection. In accordance to their deeds of valor, individual airmen received the distinct flying thes, legion of merit, and silver and bronze stars and earned the adulation of military brass, the public. Times, they are deeply revered in American Society. Then that moves me onto the mediterranean and foot soldiers of the 92nd infantry division. This slide happens to be one of my favorite slides out of this group. You see the men going out on patrol. The way patrols were during this time, you would have some , they will receive their reports at the beginning of the day, they would also see where the units would be adjacent on the battlefield. There were officers giving orders to these men who sat in the ranks, those in the ranks received the orders and where their units would be deployed, and then they carried out the operation. Well, they would report back to home base and get asked their action report. Croupier is in order this group here is in northern italy. They were also part of the allied offenses during that period. Many of them faced tremendous along theenemy forces gothic line, this fortified enemy position in which you had enemy snipers in well fortified positions in which they could see troops moving and pick them off at a moments notice. A talknot uncommon, as to several individuals who served in this unit, to talk about how at one moment, they would be standing next to someone, the next moment, they would see that person being killed right before them. It left an impression in their minds. Campaign, the 92nd, which these guys represented by the way, look at that unit insignia on their shoulders. Insignias represent these Buffalo Soldiers going all the way back to the 19th century in which they saw themselves as a part of the lineage of proud soldiers that were hiding that were fighting. Im sure professor sammons would attest to that, it was a badge of honor, a badge of courage. This unit that these individuals were part of, they suffered 300 casualties, including 220 men wounded and nearly 70 killed in action. They would earn the respect of Senior Army Leaders with seven of their men establishing themselves on the field of battle and earning the silverstar. , baker was awarded the medal of honor in 1997, but it would take a long time for his record to come forward because he was one of the most distant was africanamerican soldiers who served in this war. I would like to go on to talk about strategies in the pacific. The 24thfly, about infantry regiment, which was there at the beginning throughout the pacific. They followed along the 14th core in the South Pacific, they were and guadalcanal for a three year period and they performed basic Service Duties such as loading and unloading ships, building roads, and sustaining wired communication while they defended the perimeter against the attacks. Not aService Duties were straightforward as they would seem and i learned this from my , what these, often individuals would end up doing is they would be unloading these ships, loading and unloading ships, and garrison duties at the same times they were exposed to enemy fire so they were also carrying out patrols in the jungle, at the same time they were performing these duties, which made it difficult for them. The picture i have for you there, the individuals in new guinea, are members of the 93rd infantry division. Performedat troops these jungle patrols on a daily basis. They are in the South Pacific moved up the Pacific Island chain towards japan where they would be used in what we would consider to be intricate operations against the enemy, trying to draw the enemy out into the open in order to destroy them. On to talk about world war ii and the legacy, the postwar legacy of africanamerican troops. I think they legacy is mixed because one, in the aftermath of the war, the War Department put together a board of Senior Officers to assess the performance capabilities of africanamericans in the Second World War and this board of Army Officers reviewed the use of black troops during the war, they also questioned the 60 Senior Officers who commanded black troops, and they studied the after action reports that were filed about the segregated units during the war itself. The results were hardly surprising. The Senior Officers disparaged the combat capabilities of black servicemen and officers, similar to what you see in the aftermath of world war i. , theuse language like officers were presented by these soldiers resented by these soldiers, they could not understand the types of commands that were given to them to carry out the intricate operations that they were given, and that they were not capable of assessing the performance of the soldiers that were under them. The board, at the same time, they acknowledged the armys obligation to provide the nation with the most efficient manpower but similar to their world war i predecessors, they avoided abolishing segregation and recommended attaching allblack units, like battalions, to larger white elements. Met thislet board that met release to their findings in 1946 and you had criticism. Also, their findings paved the way for president trumans 1948 executive order, calling for the desegregation of the armed forces, but the thing to remember about this is that president trumans executive untilwould not take place the later stages of the korean war and would be the bitter lessons of the battles fought at the beginning of that war that would lead senior command to realize that they were not making efficient use of the manpower available to them. The last thing im going to add with this, the legacy of the black combat soldier of world war ii would be rehabilitated awarding of the individuals who served in world war ii. To the left is vernon baker. Baker is one of the most celebrated africanamerican soldiers from that era. The one in the middle is carter ior, somebody who served interesting, because he served in the spanish civil war before the beginning of world war ii and goes on to serve in europe with u. S. Forces. He has a Colorful Life after the war. Fox,third person, john r served along with baker in the 92nd infantry division. Officer for one of the units and he happened to find himself surrounded by the enemy, calls direct fire on his own position to save his men. With that, we see at the end of the war, it would take some 50 years into the future before members of the public and the theressional leadership and Defense Department to realize that these individuals had served with great valor. I think what would happen as a result of this at the Defense Department and future administrations as they go back and revisit the combat records of these other black gis, the record of the black soldier in world war ii will be amended to include other medal of honor recipients coming from this generation and that is going to of thehe resistance black experience in the war altogether. Im going to wrap this up. Wereprevious wars that fought earlier, the lessons of world war ii in the combat record have taken place on americas path for racial equality. As the face of battle changes, new criteria will be developed to determine how to assess combat during this period as well and with that, we can point battles can where be better understood. I think the black combat experience provides just that. Thank you very much. Dr. Morrow thank you. Those were marvelous presentations. , i have aurn it over minor correction that has to do at thee viewing public National World War Ii Museum, which i have dealt with in the past. Jefferson, when you look at that photo of the airplane behind the Tuskegee Airmen, you happened to say it was a p40. It is a p51c. This is a minor correction, but i have worked with the museum before, they are going to look at that and say i just wanted to mention that. C. At is a p51 there is also a latemodel d version but you can tell it is a c. End of the war, they had the p51d. A minor correction. Excellent presentations, thank you, gentlemen. Ed, it is all yours. All of you, fantastic presentations, and we are getting questions from the audience so i want to get to those. Professor sammons, i know you have answered some of these directly online, but there was one question in particular perhaps you could share with the rest of the audience, one of our members asked if all africanamericans in world war i served with the french, and of course, that is not true. Could you please contrast the experiences of the 92nd and 93rd division . Dr. Sammons thank you for that question. Division was a division only on paper. A professional division, it had four regiments, 369th. Ee city nights, the 370th had been the eighth illinois, which had been officered by blacks from the top down and the commander of that unit was removed for health war. Ns during the coloneloberts became a to lead that budget meant regimen but it kept its black officer corps. The three hunted 71st was regular army from South Carolina 371st was regular army from South Carolina. The 372nd was a combination of National Guard units and some regular army. The 92nd division was all blackr army, it had some officers, but no black officer or have at a rank over authority over any white officer. A general who issued the infamous order preventing blacks from going to movie theaters in the cap towns in the united camp towns in the United States was the commander of the 92nd division. It was allen greer who was his chief of staff who said that the was only capable of fighting white women and children, that they were basically rapists and cowards, came out of that unit as well, and of course, the three hunted six the eighth regiment 368th regiment was set up for failure by white officers who do not give them wire cutters to go out into patrol operations, so the treatment of the units by the white officers in the 92nd division was horrendous across the board. I wanted to make one point that i should have, after the parade, to indicate to the army war 369the report that the was decommissioned after the parade. There was no more 369th. There was no more three hunted 70th 370th. This was part of an attempt by the military to remove the blacks from combat service. 1924 that thel ande junta 69th 369th 370th where decommissioned. Thathastly assignments black hat in world war i, both of them there were 40,000 black combat troops, 200,000 that went over, the other 200,000 state as forced laborers stateside. We think of sanitation as being really bad and blacks were assigned to that service, supply of service troops, but the worst where the registration men. Y had to distant her disinter the bodies of fallen soldiers. Was a horrible assignment that blacks were given. Mr. Lengel thank you for sharing that. We have another question for you, professor sammons. Says, theam james, he great migration will lead to many important contributions to not only world war i but socially during the 1920s, particularly the harlem renaissance. The Great Depression then hits and he asks, do you believe the Great Depression halted the possibility of the desegregation of the military just before world war ii or would that would it have still existed until postworld war ii . Dr. Sammons i would probably differ that question two professor jefferson. My answer would be that the Great Depression did not influence what happened to blacks in the military, they were dead set on not having blacks in combat positions and in fact, it was pressure from black leaders and his whole campaign that forced the United States military to actually reconstitute the 92nd and 93rd divisions and then would not let them train as a division. You are right about that. Wherelitary during reluctant to employ africanamericans in their ranks but they realized it was the growing political presence of the black unity in northern centers and the like, that they would have to basically do something about this. Black organizations and newsweekly during this time were asking, what is the place of africanamericans in the military establishments . That question became more pressing as we were seeing the storm clouds of war gather in europe. Publisherpittsburgh who was asking that question and started to lead a campaign asking for the creation of a segregated division to be manned by black general officers and they were looking at davis senior as being the ideal the ideal person to lead that. The military establishment in this time, the Roosevelt Administration, wanted to stay away from that. Take the 1940 president ial election for them to even contemplate that sort of thing to happen. To make a long story short, the Great Depression had basically no impression in the minds of military officers to include blacks in large numbers. Mr. Lengel following up on professor jefferson, a question for you. Wereg world war ii, there three africanamerican divisions, the 93rd, 92nd, and second cavalry in it in 1943. I read that there were plans to raise two more africanamerican divisions, 105th and 107th infantry divisions. Do you know why the army did not follow through with creating these divisions . Dr. Jefferson that is a good question. Because those two divisions, 92nd and 93rd, had been deployed by the start they started spy the time they started to contemplate those additional by the time they started to contemplate the additional divisions they would divisions. They thought of those two divisions would be enough. The Second Cavalry Division was disbanded before they were committed to the field of action. Why they were asked about the Second Cavalry Division was disbanded, the secretary at that time basically claimed that blacks could not master the modern weapons of warfare and that brought a lot of criticism on the War Department. They were reluctant to even bring those two divisions forward. But someone needs to study, what were the plans behind that . Toe they going to be similar the segregated divisions that were created during the early stages of the war . What would be the makeup of those positions . What would be the criteria for selecting the officers who were going to serve in those units . Withengel lets follow up a couple more questions. These are from facebook. Preface this by saying, there were lots of other have been exploring this myself that received practically no attention, for example, the six of the 14th 10 destroyer battalion which had a and had honor recipient Important Services as well as artillery units and others in europe and world war ii and other places that had been totally overlooked, a huge amount of work needs to be done on this. Two questions on facebook. Melinda wants to know more about tank battalion. Do you comment asks, have information about the combat service of segregated army units in the battles of normandy and the battle of the bulge . Beente father who had honorably discharged in paris in 1946 saw combat in normandy in the battle of the board the battle of the board asked the battle of the bulge the battle of the bulge. These units, as i recently outlined in my presentation, there is so much about world war ii that has yet to be uncovered. These units happened to be some of the Unsung Heroes of normandy. Im going to talk about an example of how they have been covered up. There have been films made about the normandy landing. Saving private ryan, for instance, shows exactly why it shows you how the record has been whitewashed and black soldiers have been relegated to the realms of almost oblivion. We need to know more about those units. , there is auestion dignityled blood for that looks at the integrated combat units during world war ii. That book gets at a mod of the dilemmas that the integrated army faced at that time and how the soldiers themselves, black soldiers who served upon he served alongside white counterparts, they are also facing racism during the war, but they also earned respect from their white counterparts on the field of battle. They thought they had been forgotten about and it was years later that they would go to these reunions and say, where were you guys, we were looking for you. Those are the stories that need to be told at this moment, particularly since we see a number of world war ii gis dwindling daily. Tot is the thing i want leave with you. A lot of these stories have not been told. What the war looked like, what it meant to people, i guess that is the way i would answer that question. Mr. Lengel vernon baker was the only one alive when those medals of honor were received or awarded. Dr. Morrow vernon baker was the only one alive when those medals of honor were received or awarded. That was 1997. Dr. Sammons you recommended the perfect book. We need to keep in mind at all times that no black soldier was ever allowed to command a white soldier, that was one of the stipulations which required , so thoseegation platoons a black soldiers who were added to White Companies who normally had four platoons, 50 of them served starting during the battle of the bulge, in 1944 and 19 45. They are attached to these White Companies and do well and gained the respect of their commanders and once in combat with white soldiers, they tended to get intermixed in fight for each wayr, which is an indirect are being integrated, but the point was these were volunteers and they all had to give up that they could not outrank their white counterparts, so when they came in as volunteers, that was one of the keys. Out, you have these separate units, the tank battalion, there are a couple of Tank Destroyer battalions, then you have Something Like the 969t artillerys an gunslion of 155 millimeter , which plays a key role in the thele of best on to cover 101st division while it is there and these men received a president ial Unit Citation shortly after the battle from general maxwell taylor, the commander of the 101st, because there was no way paratroopers could have survived the of germans without that heavy artillery. Robert jefferson is correct. The story of Edward Carter as a tank rider and one of the battalions when he wins his medal of honor. Robert roberts was the spearhead before he wasst killed. Many of these units took heavy casualties in the winter of 1944 1945. I saw one reference, i believe it was in a personal account by a member of the 761st that there were white soldiers being assigned to them as replacements. Is that true . That, im not sure of. It would be unusual. , if they on their rank were officers usually you have a white captain. I cannot imagine a situation in which he put a white private in a unit like that because you would have black started over him. Black sergeants over him. I dont know how many people have seen the movie fury starring brad pitt, probably the most recent movie about in thatd tankers and movie, there is one black character and he is the black lieutenant, infantry lieutenant, with the white captain, and i saw that and i thought, that didnt happen. There was no way you would have blackwhite unit with a lieutenant, which meant he could have given commands to those men underneath him. What was missing and if they did their research, they would have understood that they needed to have a black platoon to go with the black officer. Said, i at it and wonder where that black lieutenant came from. What is he doing there . That would have been one of those 50 platoons that were integrated into those white infantry units. Mostthink one of the profound perplexities and contradictions of the second it exists in the makeup of its officer corps. Particularly,s they attended candidate schools that were integrated. That is part of the story that we need to talk about. What happened at those schools . What did they learn from that . Also, how did they take what they learned from those schools into the segregated Jim Crow Army that they found themselves in . That is another part of this story. There are so many parts of the story that have been overlooked is not the right there, covered up is probably a better term to use in many cases. Here is a question for all of you, but particularly professor , inow because you have been addition to being a great scholar, a mentor to your fellow scholars. Additionter asks, in to those on the panel, are there who arestorians advocating for the preservation and education of stories involving africanamerican military service . Are the members of the panel willing to assist young africanamericans who wish to become military historians . I cannot answer first of all, im 76 years old. I dont know how much time ive got left. An africanamerican woman studying i cant speak for my college, but i am certain, i would welcome i have produced a couple of africanamerican ambassadors that i have sent on to better schools who are now teaching and i think that we welcome that. I havecome, in my time, come across a number of other folks, adrian lewis, who is a at kansas university, is one of the wellestablished military historians who himself served in the military, the ranger regiment, and rose to the rank of major and taught at west point before he came out and became a civilian professor. There are numbers of us out there but there are not that think we would be more than happy to have africanamerican students. Some people kid me they said, do you want to be the only one . Thatgh and said, hell no, is really lonely, the more the merrier, the more blackest areas we can get in this business, the better. I think we have tried to demonstrate that the africanamerican military essential. Is studying it is essential to understanding the africanamerican historical experience at large and i think we tried to show, all this focus on slavery in reconstruction and politics, really excludes this important and essential element to the black freedom struggle and to the quest for full citizenship and we have people like katt whoiams and adrian lentz ,ind of study not so much war they look at these things through war, we say that we do matters look at these in the context of war. That whatnt, i think was once sort of ape or i. S. Of a taboosort subject, because of the, because adjusters towards an accommodation to the system when we talk about people who do participate in the military and especially the way world war i was represented in history, we have to understand how much pressure there was on blacks to support that war effort but they were not fighting for america as much as they were fighting for equality for themselves. One thing that i left out that i think is important and it relates to something that robert just said about ocs and that is the officer the colored officer camps, Training Camps, and how, first of all, they did not take the best and the brightest, they eliminated men from a certain age, many of those College Students who started the campaign and wanted to be included were left out and then them for theed assignments that they would have in war and then blamed them for their failures. I thought it was important to let that be known, that there were these camps, but once again , they were not playing ball fairly with blacks through them. I just want to follow up with the question about being able to thatuct younger scholars are thinking about military history and relation to the africanamerican experience. When youund is that study military history, it serves as a conduit for social and cultural history. When we look at it from that standpoint, the military is providing so much to American Society and having people think about what it means to serve in the ranks and also to preserve those freedoms that we live under and also how it is translated in a broader fashion. Moreld like to see students of history in this regard because when i started, going back a ways, when we talked about we talked about the africanamerican military experience always in the context of it was always seen in a particular box of thinking about what black soldiers were forced to deal with instead of thinking about how they remade the military institution altogether. That, i would like to see happen more as we go forward. Thank you. Manyncouraging thing, how questions we have been getting and i wish we could run this webinar, which has been fantastic, for another hour or two because they keep coming. Maybe we will do a followup. I will finish up with one comment, a nice comment, then one short question for your final observations. Not a question, just a huge thank you, i plan on integrating more africanAmerican History into my history course in texas, thanks to all. I think that is one of the things we are all aspiring to. , from marty evans, he says, hope you provide similarly excellent coverage of black women in war and that applies both to world war i and world war ii as well as other conflicts. Are there any scholars you are working on that or any comments on that, any of you gentlemen . Have a student, a young africanamerican woman, who is very interested in working on africanamerican blacks in world war ii for her masters and the potential to go on for a doctoral dissertation. What is interesting about this is Jeffrey Sammons wrote me this morning and said, we should be discussing women too. I said, we dont have enough time because he was thinking along those lines and there is so much to be done. We are realizing there is a documentary done by a friend of , on, gregory cook women in worldn war ii where he realized there are hundreds of thousands of thee women who broke into service of federal government, who were in the army, who were actually code breaking in washington, so i think one of the things professor jefferson has emphasized is how much we dont know at the beginning of this and being of the generation fatherinlaws, served in the 92nd, a number of their colleagues because my fatherinlaw was a regimental surgeon, their colleagues stayed in the service and went on to rise to higher ranks and i was thinking about a general of the pacific served in the as a young lieutenant, so in this has, although been a difficult period, we talked about that a number of africanamericans made excellent careers in the military at a institutionsilian i think that is worth professor jefferson has been pointing us in that direction. I think it is worth it to keep that in mind. You mentioned the general. Ago when i was at officer Training Camp in fort knox. He basically and gave the speech to us as graduated to debts and i did not realize that years later, i was going to be studying him, writing about him in my first book. How small a world it is. I am blinking, somebody wrote about black women in world war i, im blanking on her name, then i just read something a few months ago who has written about black women in world war ii. Has written on black women. Clarissa, she has written about black women in the womens army corps, but a little later. You are right, we are at a moment where i think there should be a vast outpouring of dissertations and books written about women who served during this period. A subject for a followup webinar. Thank you so much, professor morrow, professor sammons, professor jefferson. This has been a wonderful conversation and i think it points to how much more we need to study the subject and how much more there is to learn and to know and how important it is to all of us. Thank you again very much. Thank you. Thank you for having me. [captions Copyright National cable satellite corp. 2020] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap. Org] you are watching American History tv, covering history cspan style with event coverage, eyewitness accounts, archival films, lectures and classrooms, in visit to be as ems and historic places, all begin every weekend on cspan3. Historyfall, american tv is airing archival coverage of president ial races. Sunday, debate from the 1992 campaign between president bush, ross perot, and governor bill clinton. In the 1996 campaign between president clinton and former senator bob dole. Here is a preview. Dole made that remark about the young elitists in the administration, one of the young men who works for me who grew up in a trailer looked at me and said, i know how you grew up, who was he talking about . This liberal charge, that is what their party always drags out when they get in a tight race. It is a record they think they can play, Everybody Loves to hear. I dont think that dog will hunt this time. The American People should make up their own mind. We cut the deficit four years in a robe for the First Time Since before the civil war before world war ii, maybe before the civil war too. Jobs,e 10. 5 million new we made every one of them eligible for a tax cuts. We got declining crime rates, fewer people on bill for fewer people on welfare, and a crime bill with 100,000 police and eight assault weapons ban. The American People can make up their mind about whether that is a record that is good for next on history bookshelf, the book year zero, a history of 1945. He examines the world following the end of world war ii. He looks at the transformative nature of the war from the displacement of people in battle worn cities, to the creation of the United Nation and the communism, theof soviet union, and china. It cspan recorded this event in 2013
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