Dogfight over tokyo, its a great book, he is an author of many books, john wukovits, it came to us about ten years ago. We are just talking about this. He visited the museum, gave a presentation on this book, and we have not managed to get him back. Here we tried, and he was going to come in april of this year. But things got a little out of hand, and we had to postpone that event indefinitely to talk on one of his other books. Im sure most of our viewers today know many of johns books. Hell from the heroes from the heavens for crew and country, and 10 10 titans, which one Samuel Elliott morrison naval literature award that year it came out, probably the most prestigious award that was awarded, regarding nipple history. Congratulations on that, many years bladed. As i mentioned, john was supposed to come here in april and thankfully weve been able to work with our colleagues in the Distance Learning team, chrissy and kate, to bring these programs to you all. This one, specifically, has to do with our theme of the end of the war, the 75th anniversary of the end of the war. We will get right to it so we can get as many of the audience questions asked and answered by john. I will start off with a handful of my own questions. John, lets give the audience a brief summary for those who have not yet read the book. Give them a brief summary of dogfight over tokyo, please. Dogfight over tokyo explains the story of the last four americans to die in war combat in world war ii. And that, i dont mean to say they were the last four men today. Ever. This is in combat. We had thousands, obviously, a veterans who, through the decades have passed away from injuries and wounds the received during the war. These were the last four to be in a combat action, and then die. So, i tell, with the story of those four, i also interweave with that the story of the air group, of which they were apart. A group 88, and you and i will explain it a little bit more later. Their activities in the final two months of the war. The book shows how a bunch of young aviators, you know, hot stuff, arrogant, they are bragging, ready to go to war, eager to get over there, and they really wear because they wanted to match their flying skills against japanese pilots. It shows the gradual transformation of that attitude towards more of, say, i dont want to be here, kind of feeling. I take the reader from training and United States to who i. E. And cyan, after that they joined the carrier york town, and operate of the coast of japan and a couple months of the war. Thats where the book is about. Great. Whats brought you to this book . Why did you decide to write it, when needed, and what resources were out there . Why did you use . I first came across this idea maybe 12 years ago, when i was researching for a biography of admiral halsey, that came out in 2010. In there, coliseum engines in his autobiography that on the final day of war, some pilots were killed. He said, they should never be forgotten. And that struck me. I put that idea, i filed it away, i had other projects coming up, and finally, a few years, back i turn to it and thought, well, its an interesting idea, if i can find out enough material to flush out these four aviators. They did not survive the war, so what about family . Fortunately, i thought to myself, if i can find two of the four, and get enough information on that, it will work. And i did. I found plenty of information from two of the four families. So, that enabled me to flesh out those two, plus other material on the third and fourth aviator as well. I picked up from coca mo, the hobbes family, and billy hobbes diary and flight logs, photographs, letters, all kinds of things. I interviewed his sister, nancy, who just communicated with her a couple days ago, she is in mid 90s, going strong. The other family, we have a picture there of dwight billy hobbs. He was a guy who loved aviation. His sister nancy said that clearly was born to fly. As a, kid he made those planes out of wood. Germany, that might be before your time, but i use a lot of playing with those things. Hed make aircraft out of anything. A nearby airfield, he would run out to watch the planes land, especially when barnstormers were coming through town an indiana. He always, everything about him, was i want to fly, i love the excitement, thrill. That was what billy hobbs was all about. I contacted the. Mandeberg. There is a picture of Eugene Mandeberg, he was the opposite of a billy. The luis action, had a good time dating girls, and things like that. Eugene, he was someone who, you know, you called eugene. You didnt say, hey, jeanne, come over here. It was eugene. It was serious, studious, he loved reading books, he wanted to be a, writer and in fact was. He wrote some columns for the Michigan Daily newspaper, which was on the camp in the an arbor intercity of michigan. He had a sharp wet, but not to the kind that said, hey, i have a great story to tell you, and to joke about. It was, watch, and comment on what people were doing, or how they said something, and things like that. It is stories were all about social ills of the time. He wrote a short story about a lynching in georgia, the evils of that. Another story about a young soldier who went off to training camp, and came home with a sharpshooter medal, it was bragging to his mom, and she was worried. He said, mom, dont worry, we are shooting at targets. She said, my gosh, she doesnt understand hes about to get into. Eugene was the serious one, or us billy wanted to get into fighters, Fighter Aircraft specifically, to match his skills with the japanese pilot and aerial combat. Eugene got into fighters because he did not want to fly a torpedo plane or die bomber where he had two or three minutes, whichever played we are talking about. He said, i dont want to be responsible for anyone else is death in the air. So, i will fly a fighter. Then, you had the third one, which was joe sahloff, who was from new york. Joe was one of those khaki aviators. He watched cruz and the top gun kind of thing, and the way the actress kind of how he was. He always had a cigar, it seemed, of course that picture does not have a cigar, but he was known for that. At a party, in the United States, just before they were going to go over to the pacific, joe sahloff, he was the one man for the squadron commander, richard. He told his wife, i promise you, i will bring him back home safely. That didnt turn out in one of the auctions, their plans. Not completely into each other. He went spinning to his death. The fourth one, howdy harrison was a veteran aviator. They had seen some action in the pacific, and he was a father of a couple children. Howdy, in that picture, is in the middle being held up and celebratory fashion by his buddies of war in york town. He had been the subject of a fascinating rescue at sea, while they were off the coast of japan. He had landed his plane in the sea of japan, and a catalina in the aircraft. Flew across through thick overcast, it was horrible conditions but they succeeded in rescuing him right from under the noses of the japanese defenses, the way the newspapers described it. He had two children, one he had never steam because a child was born after he went to the pacific. Those were the for aviators. The book focuses on the first two, billy hobbs and Eugene Mandeberg. It was interesting, when they were in training, Eugene Mandeberg met a girl in new york city, sonia levine, and they fell in love, and planned to be married once he returned. So, thats a prominent feature of the book. They did not get married, but it turned out that sonia was still alive, and is today, in new york city. So, i was able to interview sonia about her recollections of her love from somebody five years ago. One of the things about the book that really drew me in, is clear, what we do here at the museum. Sharing personal stories. By using those personal, accounts and the fact that we do have the fortune of being around those who are living during that time. John, you mentioned theyre operating off the coast of japan. When we think of the air war over japan, i think nine out of nine people would probably think of the b29 greats. Tell us a bit about the operations. What was the purpose, how closely are they getting. Tell us about the operations beyond b29 heavy bombers . These were quite different, obviously. The smaller aircraft fighters, torpedo planes, dive bombers, they had, under admiral halsey, on the third fleet, stationed off the coast of japan, and since it was a Fast Carrier Task force, they could attack one installation factory, shipyard in japan. A couple days later, be two or 300 miles away. Their purpose before the atom bombs were dropped, was to hit these targets, these military installations, our remit factory, etc. To prepare the way for the schedule november invasion of japan and the south which was supposed to be a massive operation, so their purpose was eliminated as many as those military targets as possible, after that adam bombs were dropped it changed and instead of hitting those targets, to prepare for the eventual invasion, they are going to hit those targets to prod the japanese people to the peace table. Hit them hard. They said, just keep hitting them hard, everything we have. Even the last day of the war. Do you think we have left now if left over for one more strike. He was under orders to do that. As who halsey had some ulterior motives, i dont know if you want me to get into that now or later. Yes well do that later, we talked about the decision to launch the mission. Well do that later . Yeah. Air group 80 eights off the coast of japan, their normal operation for each strike or each mission they, they would have a morning in an afternoon strike, it would entail three parts. There would be to sweeps by Fighter Aircrafts of the targets area. You are looking at antiaircraft areas that will clear the way. And thats woo that priebus used to follow. You would have one of those in the morning, followed by the dive bombers and torpedo bombers. Then they would have another one in the afternoon. And they had 12 of those in little more than a month at their off the coast of japan. The missions they were running, just for our non pacific historians, but the more european audience members watching us today, reminded me a lot of that predday innovations. The missions that the u. S. Air force was launching, that ninth air force an eight air force to blow bridges and Communication Centers and soften up the landing ground. That is a great comparison. So they were on the york county, tell us, they had a lot of time in between missions, a lot of time to ship out from the United States, tell us about what that was like, the crew members for the york town. As a said they had the 12th strike, 12 mission days and they were they were there for say five weeks. There was time the carrier was moving into position. Aboard an aircraft carrier, you pretty much have two crews. You have the Ships Company of about 2700 officers and enlisted. The Ships Company, their task was to take care of the carrier and get it ready to launch aircraft. Nothing more than that. They existed for the air group. The air group was a separate crew of about 300 aviators divided into four squadrons, a fire squad when, a torpedo plane, and what was called a bombing and fighting squadron, aircraft. There was a separate section aboard the character. The york towns Ships Company would stay with the york talon for the duration. Air groups were rewarded on the care then they were rotated out so they could teach what they do to the training aviators and be incorporated into other squadrons because they wanted some experienced flyers in their. In their off time, they were generally in the ready room. There are four ready rooms, one for each of the four squadrons. Those ready rooms, i was at the york town and it is floating and burst off of patriots point in south carolina, theyre not as large as we might think, they are cluttered but they spent all their time there. Thats where they would go to get all their final information before emission and in the meantime they would be they playing cards or smoking or teasing one another. Whatever the case may be. The aviators that i interviewed, they said that was are pretty much our home base, the ready room. We had ours and then the dive bombers had theres an etc etc. So it was pretty much it. A routine need for the times they were off the coast of japan him. A few hours of intense the full activity interspersed with many hours of hey, lets fill the time with whatever we can. The timeline i think is important, in most popular memory you have august 6th as the hiroshima bombing in august 9th as of nagasaki bombing. Of course that led to the japanese decision to surrender. But there is this week plus lull in between them where bombs dropped and actual emperors messages broadcast. I think that gets us to the august 15th mission. Can you give us a little background on that mission specifically, as you said they were continuing to deliver their pail odds on the japanese because they had not surrendered, talk a little bit about that window and i will ask followup question we vanish. Sure, first of all the missions, there is a nice map of the final flight. Their missions, when they first arrived were against general targets that they wanted to soften up for the invasion. After the atom bombs, the flyers, everybody, the Ships Company as well, they just wanted to get out of their. The war is practically over, lets not keep this up. Why do we need to attack an airfield when an atom bomb just wiped out two cities . So they couldnt understand the necessity for keeping this where people would go out and face these antiaircraft and you have to try to understand what it is like to fly into that. We theyre shooting straight up, and you are diving down and you cant weave to avoid the fire because the planes have to lock in on their targets. So as one aviator told me, there is no skill to it, its just luck. Pure luck. We hated every minute of it. These guys did not want to sacrifice their lives when the war was going to end, but they followed orders, obviously. They went on a couple of missions after the atom bombs were dropped and a couple of guys were killed. August 14, one of the men recorded in his diary, god i hope we dont have to go out on another mission tomorrow. Then he added a little bit later, father moody, that was the catholic chaplain, he came by to say, no dice. We are going on a strike. The next morning, they had to do that. Hobbs was with a team of 12 hellcat fighters. Hobbes was not supposed to be on this flight. He was scheduled for a later day. Another team of four was supposed to go, but howdy harrison, the team leader traded places with that other team because he said billy needs one more mission for promotion to lieutenant. He was an ensign. He needs one more to get promoted to lieutenant, so will you switch with me . The other team was happy to switch. Billy was not necessarily overwhelmed with joy, but it was arranged and off they went even though one of the pilots said is this really necessary . They took off a little after 4 00 in the morning. The 12 hellcats did. A cloudy day. As he got closer to japan, two of the 12 hellcats were ordered to a higher altitude so they could relay messages to and from the carrier yorktown. So now the hellcat number was down to 10 that proceeded on to the target. After that, a team of four led by a guy named marvin oden got lost and his team became lost in they said a finger of overcast. I was never sure what to make of that. It doesnt sound like a very cloudy area, but he became lost and those four planes were now gone. Hellcat number was down to six that continued toward their target, which on the map that was showing is just south of tokyo. A little bit to the northeast of the dotted line there. They continued on toward tokyo and as they got near the airfield, they were getting ready to attack when the commander contacted them and said stop. We just received word the japanese have agreed to cessation of hostilities. Abort your mission and return to the carrier. Of course, we are going to be going home, all of those thoughts went screaming through their minds. They turned back and you can see on the map just north of the airfield and they were on their way out to tokyo bay when 15 to 20 japanese fighters jumps them and they became involved in a furious dogfight. Joe, one of the men who survived, he said he saw joes plane going down but joe parachuted out. He saw that but thats all he knew. That same pilot saw another hellcat explode in the air. That guy got out by parachuting as well. The other two to be downed that day were smashed into farmland or terrain right around the yokohama area. That left two guys you who got back to the carrier yorktown. Four who did not. Four who were shot down. The air group was crestfallen. This was supposed to be our happiest day. The war is over, but it wasnt. It was our saddest day. Not only do we lose four good friends, but we lost them in the final moments. Technically, you could say they were shot down after the war ended because they had been alerted that the japanese had agreed to a cessation of hostilities, but they had not yet officially sign the surrender document. That was in september. So they were crestfallen. One of the survivors, marvin odom, whose team was lost in the overcast said an interesting thing. He heard howdy harrison said to the other guys, once they learn the war is over, lets continue on and take a tour over tokyo and then they got shot down. I spent some time in the book explaining why that was not feasible. First of all, how would odom know what he told those guys because he was going back to the carrier . Second, who is going to take a tour over antiaircraft areas that have been firing away at you all war, now manned by japanese who are angry about surrendering . I talked to a vietnam aviator who flew over 100 missions over North Vietnam and i said if you got that message, lets go on a tour, he said i would turn around on my own and go back. I would never go on a tour. We would get out of there as fast as we can. While that was going on, there were two japanese farmers tending their field and they saw this dogfight occur and one of the planes crashed not far from their field. They went over and inspected. It was a plane and hundreds of pieces, so they contacted japanese officials who came out and when it cooled, they gathered up the remains of a person but there was no head, no limbs, just a trunk was all. No identification could be made. The japanese did, they wrapped it up in batting and carried it to the local buddhist shrine for the Buddhist Monk to take care of. So