About 10 years ago. He came and visited the museum, gave a presentation on his book, and we have not managed to get him back here. We tried. He was going to come in april of this year, but of course things got out of hand, and we had to postpone that event indefinitely to talk on one of his other books. But im sure most of our viewers here today know many of johns books. Hell from the heavens, for crew and country, and tin can titans, which one the elliott won the Elliott Morrison naval literacy award. It was awarded regarded naval history. So congratulations on that. Many years belated. As i mentioned, john was supposed to come in april, and thankfully we were able to work in the Distance Learning team to bring these programs to you all. This one, specifically, has to do with our theme of the end of the war, specifically the 75th anniversary of the end of the war. We will get right do it so we can try to get as many of the audience questions, asked and answered by john. But im going to start with a handful of my own questions first. John, lets give the audience a brief summary for those of you that have not read the book. Give us a brief summary of dogfight over tokyo, please. John well, dogfight over tokyo explains the story of the last four americans to die in combat in world war ii. By that, i dont mean to say they were the last four men to die ever. This was in combat. We had thousands, obviously, of veterans who, through the decades, passed away from injuries and wounds they received during the war. But these were the last four to actually be in a combat action and then die. So i tell this story of those four. I also interweave, with that, the story of the air group of which they were a part, air group 88. And you and i will explain that a little more later, their activities in the final two months of the war. The book shows how a bunch of young aviators, hot stuff, arrogant, bragging, ready to go to war, eager to get over there. And they really were because they want to match their flying skills against the japanese pilots. It shows the gradual transformation of that attitude toward a more hey, i dont want to be here kind of feeling. So, i take the reader from training in the United States and then to hawaii and saipan. After that, they join the carrier, yorktown, and operate off the coast of japan in the final couple of months of the war. So basically thats what the book is about. Jeremy great. So what brought you to this book . Why did you decide to write it when you did and what resources were out there . What did you use . John ok, i first came across this idea 10 or 12 years ago when i was researching for a biography of Admiral Halsey that came out, i think, in 2010. And in there, halsey mentions in his autobiography that, on the final day of war, some pilots were killed, and he said they should never be forgotten. And that struck me. So i put that idea you know, i filed that away because i had other projects coming up. Then, finally, a few years back, i turned to it and thought its an intriguing idea if i can find out enough material to flesh out these four aviators. I mean they obviously did not survive the war, so what about family . Fortunately, i thought to myself, if i can find two of the four and get enough information on that, itll work. And i did it. I found plenty of information from two of the four families. And so that enabled me to flesh out those two, plus other material on the third and fourth aviator, as well. So, i picked up from kokomo, the hobbs family had billy hobbs diary, and flight log, and all kinds of things. I interviewed billy hobbs sister, nancy, who i just communicated with a couple days ago. Shes in her mid90s, and going strong. The mandaberg family, we have a picture there of dwight billy hobbs. His first name is dwight. Everyone called him billy. He was a guy who just loved aviation. His sister, nancy, said billy was born to fly. As a kid, he made planes out of balsa wood. That may be before your time. I dont know. I used to love playing with those things. He would make aircraft out of anything. A nearby airfield, he would run out to watch the planes land, or especially when barnstormers were coming through town in kokomo, indiana. So, everything about him was, i want to fly. I love the excitement and the thrill, so that was what billy hobbs is all about. Then i contacted the mandaberg family. You have a photo there of eugene manda berg mandaberg. And he was quite opposite from billy. Whereas billy was all excitement and action, he had a good time dating girls and things like that. Eugene was someone you called eugene. You didnt say hey, gene it was eugene. Serious, studious, he loved reading books. He wanted to be a writer. He was. He wrote some columns for the Michigan Daily paper, on the campus of ann arbor in michigan. And he had a sharp wit. But not the kind that said hey, ive got a great story to tell you. Did you hear the joke about the this and that . It was, he would watch and comment on what people were doing, how they said something, or things like that. His stories were all about social ills of the time. He wrote a short story about a lynching in georgia, and the evils of that and another story about a young soldier who went off to Training Camp and came home with a sharpshooter metal and was bragging to his mom. He said dont worry, were only shooting at targets. She says geesh, my god, he doesnt even understand what hes about to get into. So, eugene was the serious one. While billy wanted to get into Fighter Aircrafts, specifically to match his skills with the japanese pilots in aerial combat, eugene got into fighters because he did not want to fly a torpedo plane or dive bomber, where he had two or three men, whichever plane were talking about. He said i dont want to be responsible for anyone elses death in the air, so ill fly a fighter. Then you had a third one. Im not sure which picture you have coming up here. The joe salock, who was from new york, and joe was one of those cocky aviators. You know, you watched tom cruise kind of thing, and just the way they act was the way he was. He always had a cigar, it seemed, though that picture doesnt have a cigar. He was known for that. He had a party in the United States just before they were going to go over to the pacific. Joe saloff was the wing man for the squadron commander. He told the commanders wife i promise you i will bring him home safely. That didnt turn out. In one of the actions, their planes knocked slightly into each other and he went spinning to his death. The fourth one, howdy harrison, was a veteran aviator, had already seen some action in the pacific, and he was the father of a couple of children. One, howdy, in that picture, is in the middle, being held up in celebratory fashion by his buddies aboard the yorktown. He had been the subject of a fascinating rescue at sea while they were off the coast of japan. He had to land his plane in the sea of japan, and then the catalina dumbo, the nickname of the aircraft, flew across through thick overcast, horrible conditions. But they succeeded in rescuing him, pretty much right from under the noses of the japanese defenses, the way the newspapers described it. He had two children, one he had never seen because the child was born after he went to the pacific. So, those were the four aviators. The book focuses on the first two, billy hobbs and Eugene Mandeberg. Now its interesting, when they were in training, Eugene Mandeberg met a gal in new york city, sonya levine, and they fell in love and planned to be married once he returned. So thats a prominent feature in the book. They obviously did not get married, but it turned out sonja, who was still alive and is today, in new york city today, so i was able to interview sonja about her recollections of her love from 75 years ago. Jeremy one of the things about the book that drew me in was basically what we do at the museum, the personal stories, using the personal accounts, and having the fortune of being around those who were living during that time. John, you mentioned they were operating off of the coast of japan. When we think of the air war over japan, i think nine out of nine people would think of the b29 raids that were launched from the marianas islands. Tell us about these operations. What was the purpose . How close were they getting . Tell us about the operations beyond the b29 heavy bombers. John yeah, these are quite different, obviously, smaller aircraft, torque planes, and i bombers. They had, under Admiral Halsey, the third fleet was stationed off the coast of japan. And since it was a Fast Carrier Task force, they could attack one installation, factory, shipyard in japan, and then be 200300 miles away and attack something else. Their purpose, before the atom bombs were dropped, was to hit these targets, these military installations. To prepare the way for the scheduled november invasion of japan itself, which which was supposed to be a massive operation, obviously. So their purpose was to eliminate as many of those military targets as possible. After the atom bombs are dropped, it changed. Instead of hitting those targets to prepare for the eventual invasion, they were to hit those targets to prod the japanese to the peace table, keep pinning them harder. Halsey kept saying weve got a keep hitting them with everything weve got, even on the last day of the war. He said, do you think we have enough left one more strike . He was under orders to do that. But as halsey had some ulterior motives, and i dont know if you want me to get into that now or later. Jeremy we can get into halsey later, as we talk about the decision to launch the mission. John ok, do that later . Jeremy yeah. Group 88, off the coast of japan, their normal operation, they would have a morning and afternoon strike that would entail three parts. There would be two sweeps by Fighter Aircraft of the target area to eliminate antiaircraft batteries and clear the way for the dive bombers and torpedo planes to follow. They would have one of those in the morning, two sweeps followed by a strike of the dive bombers and torpedo planes. They would then have another one in the afternoon. They had 12 of those in the little more than a month that they were off the coast of japan. Jeremy the missions they were running, just for our nonpacific historians, but the more european audience watching us today, reminded me of what the predday invasion in normandy and the missions, what they were watching, the air force, to blow ridges and Communication Centers and soften up the landing ground. John thats a great comparison. Jeremy so, they were on the cv 10, the yorktown. They had a lot of time between missions. They had a lot of time to ship out from the United States. Tell us about life on board with the crewmembers of the yorktown. John yeah, as i said, they had the 12 strike days, the mission days, and they were there say five weeks. So there was time, while the carrier was moving into position for another attack. The air group, first of all, aboard an aircraft carrier, you pretty much had two crews. You have the Ships Company of about 2700 officers and enlisted. The Ships Company, their task was to take care of the carrier and get it ready to launch aircraft. Nothing more than that. They existed for the air group. The air group was a separate crew of about 300 aviators, divided into four squadrons, a fighter squadron, bombing squadron, torpedo planes, and what was called a bombing and fighting squadron. They were a separate section aboard the carrier. Now, the yorktowns ship company would stay with yorktown for the duration. Air groups were generally aboard for up to six months, and then rotated out so that they could teach what they knew to train aviators and be incorporated into other squadrons because they wanted some experienced flyers in there. In their off time, ill call it, they were generally in the ready room. There were four ready rooms, one for each of the four squadrons. Those ready rooms were i was at the yorktown. Its floating off of patriots point there in south carolina. Theyre not as large as we might think. Theyre cluttered, but they spend all their time there. Thats where they would go to get the final information before a mission. And in the meantime, they would be there playing cards, smoking, or teasing one another, whatever the case may be. So, the aviators that i interviewed told me that was pretty much our home base, the ready room. We had ours and the dive bomber pilots had theirs, etc. , etc. So that was pretty much it. Their routine for the time that they were off the coast of japan, a few hours of intense, lethal activity interspersed with many hours of, hey, lets fill the time with whatever we can. Jeremy the timeline is important. I think, in most popular memory, you have august 6 as the hiroshima bombing, and august 9 as the nagasaki bombing, and of course that led to the japanese decision to surrender. But there is a week plus lull in between where the bombs dropped and the actual emperors message is broadcast. And i think that gets us to the august 15 mission. Can you give us a little bit of background on that mission . As you said, they were continuing to deliver their payloads on the japanese because they had not surrendered. But talk a little bit about that window, and ill ask a followup question when you finish. John sure. First of all, the missions theres a nice map of the final flight. Their missions, when they first arrived, where against general targets that they wanted to soften up for the invasion. After the atom bombs, the flyers everybody, the Ships Company as well, they wanted to get out of there. Hey, the war is practically over. Lets not keep this up. Why do we need to attack an airfield when an atom bomb has wiped out two cities . And so they couldnt understand the necessity to going out and facing these antiaircraft batteries. You have to try to understand what its like to fly into that , into that flak, and aircraft carriers shooting straight up at you, and youre diving down. And you cant weave to avoid the fire because the planes have to lock in on their targets. So, as one aviator told me, there is no skill to it. Its just luck. Pure luck. We hated every minute of it. These guys didnt want to sacrifice their lives when the war was going to end any time, but they followed orders, obviously. And they went out on a couple of missions after the atom bombs were dropped, and a couple of guys were killed. August 14, one of the men recorded in his diary, god, i hope we dont have to go out on another mission tomorrow. And then he added, a little bit later, father moody, that was the catholic chaplain, just came by to say no dice. Were going on a strike. And the next morning, they had to do that. Hobbes was with a team of 12 hellcat fighters. Hobbes was not supposed to be on this flight. He was scheduled for a later day. Another team of four was supposed to go, but howdy harrison, the team leader, of which hobbes was a part, traded places with that other team because he said hey, billy needs one more mission for promotion to lieutenant j. G. He was an ensign. He needed one more to get promoted to lieutenant j. G. So will you switch with me . The other team was happy to switch. Billy wasnt necessarily overwhelmed with joy to switch, and off theyranged went, even though one of the pilots said, is this really necessary . They took off a little after 4 00 in the morning. The 12 hellcats did. A cloudy day. So as they got closer to japan, two of the 12 hellcats were ordered to a higher altitude so that they could relay messages to and from the carrier yorktown. So now, the hellcat number was down to 10 that proceeded down that proceeded onto the target. After that, a team of four, led by a guy named marvin odom, got lost, and the action report said odoms team became lost in they said, a finger of overcast. I was never sure what to make of that. It doesnt sound like a very cloudy area, but he became lost, and those four planes were now gone. The hellcat number was down to six that continued toward their target, which on the map that is showing, is just south of tokyo. Little bit to the northeast of the dotted line there. So they continued on toward tokyo. As they got near atsugi airfield, they were getting ready to attack when the commander contacted them and said hey, stop. We just received word the japanese have agreed to cessation of hostilities. Abort your mission and return to the carrier. Of course, that news he gave to ,ll of them, all six of them hey, were going to be going home, gonna survive the war, all of those thoughts went screaming through their minds. They turned back, and you can see on the map, just north of the airfield, and they were on their way out to tokyo bay when 1520 japanese fighters jumped them. They became involved in a furious dogfight. Joe saloff, one of the men who survived said he saw joe saloffs plane going down over tokyo bay, but saloff parachuted out. He saw that but thats all he knew. Then that same pilot saw another hellcat explode in the air. But that guy got out by parachuting, as well. The other two of the hellcats to be downed that day were smashed into farmland or terrain, right around the yokohama nasse machi area there. So, that left two guys who got back to the carrier yorktown. Four who didnt, four who were shot down. The air group was crestfallen. One of the guys said, you know, this is supposed to be our happiest day. The war is over. But it wasnt. It was our saddest day. Because not only do we lose four good friends, but we lost them in the final moments. Technically, you could say that these four were shot down after the war ended, if you want to, because they had been alerted that the japanese had agreed to a cessation of hostilities, but they hadnt yet officially signed the surrender document. Obviously, that was in september. So they were crestfallen. One of the survivors, marvin odom, whose team was lost in the finger of overcast, said an interesting thing. He said he heard that howdy harrison said to the other guys, once they learned the war is over, lets continue on and take a tour over tokyo. And then they got shot down. I spent some time in the book explaining why that just was not feasible. First of all, how would odom know what he told those guys . Odom was going back to the carrier. Secondly, who is going to take a tour over antiaircraft areas that have been firing away at you all war, now manned by japanese who are angry about surrendering . I talked to a vietnam aviator who flew over 100 missions over north vietnam, and i asked him, if you got that message, lets go on the tour, what would you do . He said i would turn around on my own and go back. I would never go on a tour. We would get out of there as fast as we can. But while that was