Transcripts For CSPAN3 State 20240703 : vimarsana.com

Families with a focus on getting recipients back to work. Though it is suddenly find it is executed by the states. The house ways and means a subcommittee hearing is about two hours. [inaudible conversations] the committee will come to committee will come to order. I will make to welcome everyone today. The welfare subcommittee. The title is where is all the welfare money going, lifting americans out of poverty. My name is daren millard. Covering northwest parts of the state. Recently, republicans were able to secure a major victory with the fiscal responsibility act which strengthens work requirements and the direct cash assistance portion of the temporary assistance for needy families program. Those hearings are in march, i live in the polls in the current law that a lot of states gain work Participation Rate. This hearing will take the next step by focusing on the other side of tanner, which is not Assistance Spending. None assistance funding constitutes the majority of the grant. Nearly 78 of combined federal and state spending. This is a spending that is not for basic assistance or direct checks to welfare recipients. Concerns have emerged that the long assistance part likes guardrails and is not focused on helping people move welfare to work. Embezzlement scandals in mississippi have drawn increased scrutiny about the program. Leaving people to ask, where is the welfare money going . In june, they sent a letter to hhs asking the agency about the response to mississippi and their efforts to safeguard federal funds in other states. In response, hhs outlined statutory limitations that constrained ability to conduct oversight to work with the committee to improve that program. I have heard from my colleagues on both sides of the aisle with expressed frustration on this point. In fact, during the last hearing, my friend from wisconsin shared her concern about how states earned money and commented about questionable use of funds in wisconsin. Current law lacks basic financial safeguards including most other federal programs. Making it easy for states to divert funds and increasing the risk of fraud and abuse. Here are some of the examples. First, current law uses federal grant in any manner that is recently calculated. This is to provide assistance to needy families, independence of needy parents on government benefits, reduce out of wedlock pregnancies, and promote the formation of twoparent families. These are worthy goals. But it is rare for allowable spending in a federal program to be solely divide by vaguely written purposes. Second, unlike most federal programs, they do not put limits on administered of costs or obligation deadlines. As a result, Program Management is one of the four largest expenditure categories. With no deadline to spend, many states have built up large reserves. Instead of sending them on families who need them. Third, they are not subject to the payment integrity information at even though the office of budget and assessment as a susceptible program. Hhs has never reported an improper rate estimate. Finally, the law allows states to have a wide variety of social services. But, with none of the federal rule that normally apply. This is a result in being spent on programs that are not tracked for outcomes or the body of services being paid for federal tax dollars. It all of this adds up to four fraud to occur like what have been the state of mississippi. One of the witnesses today, mr. Chad white, has first stage knowledge of how this can be avoided in other states in the future. Today, will hear from witnesses and their examples of how states will be able to use the nonexistent funds to strategically support initiatives that do effectively move individuals from welfare to work. Some states have built their Strong Financial control and audit practices which can be remedied they can be used in other states. I think all of these things should be bipartisan issues. We should Work Together to improve accountability in this vital program. Its time to reclaim the funds to ensure dollars are intentionally focused on removing barriers to work, reducing dependency and growing capacity of individuals to realize full potential. I am honored to have our guest here today, and look forward to your testimonies. With that, i recognize the Ranking Member, the gentleman from illinois, Ranking Member, denny davidson. You, mr. Chairman. Let me welcome all who have come and expressed thanks and appreciation to all of our witnesses. And thank you. The temporary assistance for Needy Program families fails to help the vast majority of the families in need it is shameful, broken, but it is the result of policies that my colleagues demanded. Republicans insisted on making it so hard for states to help poor families who need cash assistance, education, childcare, to escape poverty, that states started diverting funds to other uses, and none Assistance Spending. In 2020, the state spent only about 20 of the federal and state funds on cash assistance. And only about 10 on work education and training. Some states, like mississippi and tennessee, chose to stash tens of millions of dollars in a bank account, rather than help poor families. Republicans insisted on imposing administrative burdens, decided to kick families off of direct cash assistance, under the guise of accountability. Even though gop witnesses recommended less then work requirements and restrictions on education and training. Gop debt limit provisions doubled down on harsh work requirements. These republican driven policies prep families within poverty with rejecting them altogether. Pushing families into meager child only funds, are forcing them into Poverty Level jobs rather than building economic security. Republicans insisted on it being a block grant, that gave states wide latitude to Fund Activities that do not help poor parents. Incredibly, unlike any other law, republicans insisted on a statutory prohibition on federal oversight that limits transparency, fraud detection, and enforcements. The mississippi advocates as the subcommittee for help, years ago, to get the Donald Trump Administration to examine how the state was using tanner. We had to direct them to state officials to investigate this issue, due to this prohibition on enforcement. Unfortunately, even after the fraud revelation advocacy event, we can still not get answers on how it is used locally. I hope that our witness stayed out of it, but will also help remedy the lack of transparency. It is also deeply troublesome that less than 24 hours after the fraud was announced, mississippi lawmakers at the urgency of the state auditors advanced a bill to allow him to review the tax returns of the recast recipients. It the requirement that was not imposed, to my knowledge, on the subcontractors and businesses. So let us be clear it is working exactly as Republican Party wanted. Democrats absolutely think it needs a fundamental overhaul. But, any reform should start by improving family stability first and foremost, by reducing burdensome requirements and providing sufficient access to Financial Aid and support, childcare, education, and Career Pathways to help families thrive and survive. Families need stability before parents can be reliable worker and reliable worker flawless jobs to escape poverty. Predictable Financial Assistance is central to stability for parents to hold selfsustaining jobs. We saw them doing it in the pandemic. The reliable Financial Assistance, the Child Tax Credit program, and help cut child property by 40 . Further reports details how state policies that increase access to cash Assistance Programs are associated with decreased child malefactor treatment. For example, 100 increase in if its is associated with reduction in maternal self reported physical child treatment. In contrast, with families receiving assistance with experiencing hardship which is difficult to meet basic needs. They are three times more likely to experience a neglect investigation, and four times more likely to experience a physical abuse investigation. They cash assistance benefits in most states hello at their lowest the program started back in 1996. Yet, research shows, with families with children under the age of 5 receive an extra 3000 per year boosted childrens adult earnings by 17 . So, investing in cash assistance now would help lift children and pay into the medicare system both now and in the future. It falls disproportionately on children of color, whose families experienced greater barriers, and economic stability. Black, american, indian, alaska native, asian and latino children experienced higher poverty rates than white children. And theres a reason for that. Yet, 40 of black children live in states with benefit amounts below 20 of the federal Poverty Level. Compared to only 35 of white children. I served on this community, back when there was a goodfaith bipartisan effort to reform the program. Now, those efforts have been repeatedly torpedoed by extremist demanding harsh work requirements. They limit states from using nonassistance dollars and doing nothing to lift americans out of poverty. If we do nothing to help states serve low income families and communities by providing cash assistance and Work Programs and while also removing the ineffective requirements. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I currently yield. It is my pleasure to yield to the full chairman of the committee, mr. Jason smith. Thank you, Ranking Member davis, for holding the hearing, about how congress strengthens the nondirect assistance side of the temporary assistance for needy families program. To lift more americans at a property and fund the program. I would like to give a special welcome to one of the witnesses today, mr. Robert odell, the director of the department of social services of my home state. The native of god country, the best Congressional District in the entire nation, which happens to be missouris eighth, my district. Also, a graduate of Southeast Missouri state. A fighting redhawk. We are glad that you are here. He combines his love of missouri with a career that is dedicated to his service, focusing on improving education and social justices. Thank you so much, robert. Its an honor to have you. And, hearing all around the country, we have heard how Small Businesses are being impacted by the labor shortage. The fiscal responsibility act delivered a major win for the families and Small Businesses by strengthening work requirements. At least, in this program. Also put an end to and exploiting loophole around the work Participation Rate and force them to measure outcomes that matter. How many recipients get a job . That was a major step towards restoring the program to its core mission. Acting as a bridge out of poverty, we have more work to do. Almost eight in every 10 in every program are spent on something other than direct checks to family. They were meant to help people get a job, but we need basic financial guardrails to guarantee taxpayer money is not wasted. That lack of accountability has opened the floodgates for states to treat Assistance Programs like a slush fund. And in some cases, states use the funds for nefarious purposes, such as filling budget gaps. In other words, they pay for social programs but the fed already pays for them. And it avoids federal rules. At least, on states and how they can use the money. Creating more duplication and overlap. In the worst cases, the lack of control and accountability has led to outright fraud and embezzlement abuse. For example, in mississippi, 77 million in non assistant dollars was misspent through waste, fraud and abuse. To put this into ace perspective, mississippi received 86 million and dollars and annually. It has the highest rate of Child Poverty in the entire country. Money that should have gone towards the vulnerable went instead building towards volleyball courts. Republicans have asked the secretaries. Theyre not doing any action. Theyre trying to correct the situation, but on the current task, the Assistance Program is going failing the beneficiaries. Its also failing taxpayers whose money should be spent intentionally and strategically to support work. The basic problem at hand is the lack of accountability. More money tomorrow does not solve the problem of misspending my today. Thank you to each of our witnesses for testifying today about how to ensure it fills its mission about listing people out of impoverished times through work. I currently yield back, mr. Chairman. We are pleased to have our witnesses here today, and, we have a tremendous amount of experience here today with all of you. We want to thank you for being here today. I will now introduce them, mr. Clarence carter. I will start from my right to left. The commissioner of the department of Human Services in tennessee. Mr. Chad white is the state auditor for the state of mississippi. Mr. Robert odell is the auditor of the department of social services. Mr. Carter putnam is the secretary of the department of labor and the ceo of springboard of opportunities in jackson mississippi is misses alicia jackson. Mr. Carter, i will recognize you deliver the opening statement. Members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to testify on potential reforms. Carter and i currently serve as commissioner of the Tennessee Department of Human Services in the administration of governor building. Tendency of my last stop in a 32 year career in the administration of Public Safety net programs and agencies at the federal, state and local levels of government. During that career ive had the blessing and good fortune of serving two president s, four governors and the mayor in this my life purpose and passion. My career predates the welfare the federal, state and refoloca levels. Four governors. My lifes purpose and passion. My career predates 1996. I hearken back to the excitement and anticipation. At that time, i was serving as virginias commissioner of department of social Services Area to record the conversation i had with one or more consumers regarding her experience with the new program. She said to me when they told me i have to work, i was scared. She had not been employed the birth of her child. Had serious concerns about her ability to successfully rejoin the workforce. She recounted how her case manager believed in her and assisted her in any job. She went on to say you know what i did with my first check . I took my kids out for pizza. With tears streaming down her face, she said with pride mr. Carter, at the beginning, i was afraid but now i know i will never be on welfare again because i know i can do this. I hear this reflection because it is that inspiration, hope, and vision that drives me every day in his work. Mears of the is not enough. Individuals need hope and the ability to determine their own destiny. Our system of public support should be about freeing people to act in their own best interest, not making of ever extending public system. The system was built on two principles. Benefits and time limits. While those twin pillars are as important today as they were 27 years ago, we have fallen fall short of the goals and vision at the signing of the legislation. The previous administration, i served as the office of family assistance. Within the program. Upon arrival in 2017, we saw that there was an excess of 5 million in tenant funds nationwide. We sent a letter encouraging dates to use their own and balances to demonstrate innovations in the program. Unfortunately, our encouragement fell flat. States needed more than encouragement in the federal government. Needed additional funding to do so. It was with that understanding that got us in crafting the opportunity and economic ability demonstrations which were included as part of the president s budget and fiscal year 20. I included budget proposals with my written testimony. Little did i know that the left stop in my journey would afford me the opportunity and practice what i had encouraged that the federal level. Tennessee had the largest amount in excess of 7 million. This brings us to what we were doing with tenant in administration. In an Human Services, the state legislature and governor crafted the tenant opportunity act. This legislation was designed to serve families in need and mandate funding mechanisms. Perhaps most impact for this committee, this legislation also authorized seven demonstration aimed at helping families overcome the challenges they face. The objective of these demonstrations is to text unique collaborative models for building the development of capacity of 10 if recipients. Valuable insight to provide our overall tanif model. Its emphasis on evaluation and finding out what works. To accomplish this, we engage in eValuation Firms to design random trial in closing, we find ourselves at an crossroads in the history of our nation safety. This committee can positively impact the lives of millions of americans. I believe the interventions were performed. I want to thank you again for the opportunity to share this testimony and i encouraged to embark upon this necessary journey. I can state unequivocally that under the leadership, tennessee is dedicated to partnering. . Thank you, commissioner carter. I will turn to auditor white. You will recognize. It was fueled almost entirely by tanif dollars. I thought it would tell you about how the case came about and i have some thoughts and recommendations on policies that might be implemented to prevent what we saw happen i would be happy to into. In the summer of 2019, this case started and we received a whistleblower tip that suggested there may be a kickback between the head of the department of Participation Rate<\/a>. This hearing will take the next step by focusing on the other side of tanner, which is not Assistance Spending<\/a>. None assistance funding constitutes the majority of the grant. Nearly 78 of combined federal and state spending. This is a spending that is not for basic assistance or direct checks to welfare recipients. Concerns have emerged that the long assistance part likes guardrails and is not focused on helping people move welfare to work. Embezzlement scandals in mississippi have drawn increased scrutiny about the program. Leaving people to ask, where is the welfare money going . In june, they sent a letter to hhs asking the agency about the response to mississippi and their efforts to safeguard federal funds in other states. In response, hhs outlined statutory limitations that constrained ability to conduct oversight to work with the committee to improve that program. I have heard from my colleagues on both sides of the aisle with expressed frustration on this point. In fact, during the last hearing, my friend from wisconsin shared her concern about how states earned money and commented about questionable use of funds in wisconsin. Current law lacks basic financial safeguards including most other federal programs. Making it easy for states to divert funds and increasing the risk of fraud and abuse. Here are some of the examples. First, current law uses federal grant in any manner that is recently calculated. This is to provide assistance to needy families, independence of needy parents on government benefits, reduce out of wedlock pregnancies, and promote the formation of twoparent families. These are worthy goals. But it is rare for allowable spending in a federal program to be solely divide by vaguely written purposes. Second, unlike most federal programs, they do not put limits on administered of costs or obligation deadlines. As a result, Program Management<\/a> is one of the four largest expenditure categories. With no deadline to spend, many states have built up large reserves. Instead of sending them on families who need them. Third, they are not subject to the payment integrity information at even though the office of budget and assessment as a susceptible program. Hhs has never reported an improper rate estimate. Finally, the law allows states to have a wide variety of social services. But, with none of the federal rule that normally apply. This is a result in being spent on programs that are not tracked for outcomes or the body of services being paid for federal tax dollars. It all of this adds up to four fraud to occur like what have been the state of mississippi. One of the witnesses today, mr. Chad white, has first stage knowledge of how this can be avoided in other states in the future. Today, will hear from witnesses and their examples of how states will be able to use the nonexistent funds to strategically support initiatives that do effectively move individuals from welfare to work. Some states have built their Strong Financial<\/a> control and audit practices which can be remedied they can be used in other states. I think all of these things should be bipartisan issues. We should Work Together<\/a> to improve accountability in this vital program. Its time to reclaim the funds to ensure dollars are intentionally focused on removing barriers to work, reducing dependency and growing capacity of individuals to realize full potential. I am honored to have our guest here today, and look forward to your testimonies. With that, i recognize the Ranking Member<\/a>, the gentleman from illinois, Ranking Member<\/a>, denny davidson. You, mr. Chairman. Let me welcome all who have come and expressed thanks and appreciation to all of our witnesses. And thank you. The temporary assistance for Needy Program<\/a> families fails to help the vast majority of the families in need it is shameful, broken, but it is the result of policies that my colleagues demanded. Republicans insisted on making it so hard for states to help poor families who need cash assistance, education, childcare, to escape poverty, that states started diverting funds to other uses, and none Assistance Spending<\/a>. In 2020, the state spent only about 20 of the federal and state funds on cash assistance. And only about 10 on work education and training. Some states, like mississippi and tennessee, chose to stash tens of millions of dollars in a bank account, rather than help poor families. Republicans insisted on imposing administrative burdens, decided to kick families off of direct cash assistance, under the guise of accountability. Even though gop witnesses recommended less then work requirements and restrictions on education and training. Gop debt limit provisions doubled down on harsh work requirements. These republican driven policies prep families within poverty with rejecting them altogether. Pushing families into meager child only funds, are forcing them into Poverty Level<\/a> jobs rather than building economic security. Republicans insisted on it being a block grant, that gave states wide latitude to Fund Activities<\/a> that do not help poor parents. Incredibly, unlike any other law, republicans insisted on a statutory prohibition on federal oversight that limits transparency, fraud detection, and enforcements. The mississippi advocates as the subcommittee for help, years ago, to get the Donald Trump Administration<\/a> to examine how the state was using tanner. We had to direct them to state officials to investigate this issue, due to this prohibition on enforcement. Unfortunately, even after the fraud revelation advocacy event, we can still not get answers on how it is used locally. I hope that our witness stayed out of it, but will also help remedy the lack of transparency. It is also deeply troublesome that less than 24 hours after the fraud was announced, mississippi lawmakers at the urgency of the state auditors advanced a bill to allow him to review the tax returns of the recast recipients. It the requirement that was not imposed, to my knowledge, on the subcontractors and businesses. So let us be clear it is working exactly as Republican Party<\/a> wanted. Democrats absolutely think it needs a fundamental overhaul. But, any reform should start by improving family stability first and foremost, by reducing burdensome requirements and providing sufficient access to Financial Aid<\/a> and support, childcare, education, and Career Pathways<\/a> to help families thrive and survive. Families need stability before parents can be reliable worker and reliable worker flawless jobs to escape poverty. Predictable Financial Assistance<\/a> is central to stability for parents to hold selfsustaining jobs. We saw them doing it in the pandemic. The reliable Financial Assistance<\/a>, the Child Tax Credit<\/a> program, and help cut child property by 40 . Further reports details how state policies that increase access to cash Assistance Program<\/a>s are associated with decreased child malefactor treatment. For example, 100 increase in if its is associated with reduction in maternal self reported physical child treatment. In contrast, with families receiving assistance with experiencing hardship which is difficult to meet basic needs. They are three times more likely to experience a neglect investigation, and four times more likely to experience a physical abuse investigation. They cash assistance benefits in most states hello at their lowest the program started back in 1996. Yet, research shows, with families with children under the age of 5 receive an extra 3000 per year boosted childrens adult earnings by 17 . So, investing in cash assistance now would help lift children and pay into the medicare system both now and in the future. It falls disproportionately on children of color, whose families experienced greater barriers, and economic stability. Black, american, indian, alaska native, asian and latino children experienced higher poverty rates than white children. And theres a reason for that. Yet, 40 of black children live in states with benefit amounts below 20 of the federal Poverty Level<\/a>. Compared to only 35 of white children. I served on this community, back when there was a goodfaith bipartisan effort to reform the program. Now, those efforts have been repeatedly torpedoed by extremist demanding harsh work requirements. They limit states from using nonassistance dollars and doing nothing to lift americans out of poverty. If we do nothing to help states serve low income families and communities by providing cash assistance and Work Programs<\/a> and while also removing the ineffective requirements. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I currently yield. It is my pleasure to yield to the full chairman of the committee, mr. Jason smith. Thank you, Ranking Member<\/a> davis, for holding the hearing, about how congress strengthens the nondirect assistance side of the temporary assistance for needy families program. To lift more americans at a property and fund the program. I would like to give a special welcome to one of the witnesses today, mr. Robert odell, the director of the department of social services of my home state. The native of god country, the best Congressional District<\/a> in the entire nation, which happens to be missouris eighth, my district. Also, a graduate of Southeast Missouri<\/a> state. A fighting redhawk. We are glad that you are here. He combines his love of missouri with a career that is dedicated to his service, focusing on improving education and social justices. Thank you so much, robert. Its an honor to have you. And, hearing all around the country, we have heard how Small Businesses<\/a> are being impacted by the labor shortage. The fiscal responsibility act delivered a major win for the families and Small Businesses<\/a> by strengthening work requirements. At least, in this program. Also put an end to and exploiting loophole around the work Participation Rate<\/a> and force them to measure outcomes that matter. How many recipients get a job . That was a major step towards restoring the program to its core mission. Acting as a bridge out of poverty, we have more work to do. Almost eight in every 10 in every program are spent on something other than direct checks to family. They were meant to help people get a job, but we need basic financial guardrails to guarantee taxpayer money is not wasted. That lack of accountability has opened the floodgates for states to treat Assistance Program<\/a>s like a slush fund. And in some cases, states use the funds for nefarious purposes, such as filling budget gaps. In other words, they pay for social programs but the fed already pays for them. And it avoids federal rules. At least, on states and how they can use the money. Creating more duplication and overlap. In the worst cases, the lack of control and accountability has led to outright fraud and embezzlement abuse. For example, in mississippi, 77 million in non assistant dollars was misspent through waste, fraud and abuse. To put this into ace perspective, mississippi received 86 million and dollars and annually. It has the highest rate of Child Poverty<\/a> in the entire country. Money that should have gone towards the vulnerable went instead building towards volleyball courts. Republicans have asked the secretaries. Theyre not doing any action. Theyre trying to correct the situation, but on the current task, the Assistance Program<\/a> is going failing the beneficiaries. Its also failing taxpayers whose money should be spent intentionally and strategically to support work. The basic problem at hand is the lack of accountability. More money tomorrow does not solve the problem of misspending my today. Thank you to each of our witnesses for testifying today about how to ensure it fills its mission about listing people out of impoverished times through work. I currently yield back, mr. Chairman. We are pleased to have our witnesses here today, and, we have a tremendous amount of experience here today with all of you. We want to thank you for being here today. I will now introduce them, mr. Clarence carter. I will start from my right to left. The commissioner of the department of Human Services<\/a> in tennessee. Mr. Chad white is the state auditor for the state of mississippi. Mr. Robert odell is the auditor of the department of social services. Mr. Carter putnam is the secretary of the department of labor and the ceo of springboard of opportunities in jackson mississippi is misses alicia jackson. Mr. Carter, i will recognize you deliver the opening statement. Members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to testify on potential reforms. Carter and i currently serve as commissioner of the Tennessee Department<\/a> of Human Services<\/a> in the administration of governor building. Tendency of my last stop in a 32 year career in the administration of Public Safety<\/a> net programs and agencies at the federal, state and local levels of government. During that career ive had the blessing and good fortune of serving two president s, four governors and the mayor in this my life purpose and passion. My career predates the welfare the federal, state and refoloca levels. Four governors. My lifes purpose and passion. My career predates 1996. I hearken back to the excitement and anticipation. At that time, i was serving as virginias commissioner of department of social Services Area<\/a> to record the conversation i had with one or more consumers regarding her experience with the new program. She said to me when they told me i have to work, i was scared. She had not been employed the birth of her child. Had serious concerns about her ability to successfully rejoin the workforce. She recounted how her case manager believed in her and assisted her in any job. She went on to say you know what i did with my first check . I took my kids out for pizza. With tears streaming down her face, she said with pride mr. Carter, at the beginning, i was afraid but now i know i will never be on welfare again because i know i can do this. I hear this reflection because it is that inspiration, hope, and vision that drives me every day in his work. Mears of the is not enough. Individuals need hope and the ability to determine their own destiny. Our system of public support should be about freeing people to act in their own best interest, not making of ever extending public system. The system was built on two principles. Benefits and time limits. While those twin pillars are as important today as they were 27 years ago, we have fallen fall short of the goals and vision at the signing of the legislation. The previous administration, i served as the office of family assistance. Within the program. Upon arrival in 2017, we saw that there was an excess of 5 million in tenant funds nationwide. We sent a letter encouraging dates to use their own and balances to demonstrate innovations in the program. Unfortunately, our encouragement fell flat. States needed more than encouragement in the federal government. Needed additional funding to do so. It was with that understanding that got us in crafting the opportunity and economic ability demonstrations which were included as part of the president s budget and fiscal year 20. I included budget proposals with my written testimony. Little did i know that the left stop in my journey would afford me the opportunity and practice what i had encouraged that the federal level. Tennessee had the largest amount in excess of 7 million. This brings us to what we were doing with tenant in administration. In an Human Services<\/a>, the state legislature and governor crafted the tenant opportunity act. This legislation was designed to serve families in need and mandate funding mechanisms. Perhaps most impact for this committee, this legislation also authorized seven demonstration aimed at helping families overcome the challenges they face. The objective of these demonstrations is to text unique collaborative models for building the development of capacity of 10 if recipients. Valuable insight to provide our overall tanif model. Its emphasis on evaluation and finding out what works. To accomplish this, we engage in eValuation Firm<\/a>s to design random trial in closing, we find ourselves at an crossroads in the history of our nation safety. This committee can positively impact the lives of millions of americans. I believe the interventions were performed. I want to thank you again for the opportunity to share this testimony and i encouraged to embark upon this necessary journey. I can state unequivocally that under the leadership, tennessee is dedicated to partnering. . Thank you, commissioner carter. I will turn to auditor white. You will recognize. It was fueled almost entirely by tanif dollars. I thought it would tell you about how the case came about and i have some thoughts and recommendations on policies that might be implemented to prevent what we saw happen i would be happy to into. In the summer of 2019, this case started and we received a whistleblower tip that suggested there may be a kickback between the head of the department of Human Services<\/a> in mississippi, the agency that handles tanif and a vendor to dhs or department of Human Services<\/a>. I ordered an investigation and simultaneously told our auditors who were doing our single audit at the time, the audit that we do for you, the federal government, to decide describe how federal government is spent to look at what is going on with tanif dollars in the state of mississippi. We did an investigation for six or seven months and at the end of that time, we determined north of 90 million above tanif funds and other welfare funds have been misspent in the state and they also determined they were likely multiple fraud schemes that had gone. At that point, we knew that the organizations were nonprofit in particular that was receiving funds and spending them was likely to also get an additional grant. We had to act quickly in order to resolve this. I took will be found to a local prosecutor in hinds county. He acted quickly and indicted six individuals, successfully cutting off the flow of funds in stopping the spending. That was in february of 2020. We also concluded our single audit. A few months later in that single audit, what we found was multiple instances of misspent tenant funds. I will catch you up to where we are today. Moneylaundering fraud, rico charges. In that case, the criminal case is still ongoing so i will be limited in what i can say about the criminal case right now. My office has turned over everything that we have to the fbi and the fbi and federal prosecutors and department of justice have asked to take a leading role in indicting and investigating anyone who is new. We agreed to that arrangement and we have insisted that arrangement about three years ago. As far as the misspent money goes, the state is now suing multiple individuals to get some of that money back. I will tell you every example of misspent funds in mississippi but i will give you a flavor of what we found in our single audit. We found that tanif dollars had gone to pay for advertisements and outofstate college ball games. We found outside of mississippi. We found that tanf dollars had gone to pay celebrities and athletes in mississippi with little to no work required. We found that one profit in particular, a prophet run by nancy and zach, a mother and son duo, had received tens of millions of dollars of 10 if money tanf money. They had misspent most of that money. Repaid a loan from his 401 k program with tanf dollars. They paid for a house using government money, they paid for cars for themselves. They paid for Technology Like<\/a> ipads. This list goes on and on. If you would like to see the full list of what we uncovered, i suggest that you read our single audit from 2020 or the two years after that. Details some of those findings. But i would like to say mainly as tingly thank you to all of you for inviting all of us here and for looking into this. My hope is that the country can learn for mississippis experience so that what we saw, the front that we saw in mississippi does not happen in other states. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you, mr. Auditor. We will next turned to director from the state of missouri. You are recognized for five minutes. Thank you. Robin odell, department of social services. Thank you chairman and members of the committee. Im honored to serve in the gubernatorial position as directory of our Missouri Department<\/a> of social services. On behalf of our 5700 Hard Working Team<\/a> members and the over 2 million missourians that our department serves every day, we appreciate the opportunity. Missouri is fortunate to currently have an Unemployment Rate<\/a> of 2. 5 in state. However, we have experienced a steady decline in our labor force Participation Rate<\/a> since the 1990s. While we rank above the National Average<\/a>, our current rate as of may of this year is 63. 4 , which is the lowest during any noncovid month since 1995. Sensory population is aging with more and more citizens were approaching retirement and in rural communities, our city is not growing. This creates a laborforce challenge and communities looking to staff. Healthcare nursing facilities provide school bus drivers. Phil other critical jobs that make cities and towns right places to call home. Tanf in misery, if it achieves its full potential, duck tales very well with governor mike our sins paramount priority of Workforce Development<\/a>. Lifting citizens out of poverty by equipping them with the skills, education, and attainable expectations to become selfsufficient in family supporting does wonders to strengthen families and improve communities making the American Dream<\/a> or attainable. That is what we are doing in maturity with our tanf. We are looking for ways to meaningful assist our neighbors who encounter barriers to selfsufficiency and face that unfortunate lifetime of dependency on public assistance to survive otherwise. These citizens need the American Dream<\/a> and the American Dream<\/a> needs them. Our communities are counting on us, both through this committee and throughout our states to lift up families to be full participants as creators and consumers. So we can function and thrive in a way that fulfills our social contract. Our tanf block grants are funded with balance. Missouri third serves hundreds of thousands through our programs providing the necessary skills, training, mentoring, nutrition, and removal of barriers to ensure successful path to employment. We all know the difference between somebody who starts a job that we are prepared for as opposed to starting a job that we are well equipped and trained to succeed him. Often returns to public Assistance Program<\/a>s in short order and the latter does not. Missouri invested tanf dollars into the jobs for american graduate. Boasting a 98 Graduation Rate<\/a> with 86 of graduates transitioning to college, a job, or military service. We operate four xl centers which are adult high schools. Free High School Education<\/a> with flexible schedules and Life Coaching<\/a> within our state. 83 of do it end up employed and another 10 enroll in college for an advanced skills training. With the onset of the comb it covid pandemic, she was at a crossroad. She was laid off and when Public Schools<\/a> transitioned to remote education, she had a childcare barrier to consider. She attempted to find parttime employment but opportunities were scarce due to her remote and rural location. After 18 months of unemployment and wants her children returned to in person schooling, denise applied and was approved for temporary assistance benefits. As a participant, she qualified having previously worked in a nursing facility, she had previous knowledge in the medical field and was interested in a Phlebotomy Program<\/a> at a local community college. Nwa not only helped pay for her Training Program<\/a> but they were also able to help with the gas expense as she faced a 120 mile round trip in order to attend those classes. When denise got to the point in the program that she needed scrubs to where, nwa was able to help cover this expense. Denise recently began work at the river oaks nursing home in Pemiscot County<\/a> and is preparing to take her state test for certification. After which she has plans to apply for those better jobs. As a cpt, more stable and higherpaying job opportunities. Denise is grateful for the Financial Assistance<\/a> that nwa provided during her journey. I will caution this committee that as pandemic relief dollars go away and if and when state tax revenues tighten or decline, state agencies will be under increasing pressure to color outside the lines and push boundaries when it comes to tanf spending. Program integrity measures from state and federal levels will be more important than ever and we urge you to consider strategically enhancing tanf dollars within the program to provide benefits. We encourage you to consider enhanced measures. To make clear not only to states but our Partner Agencies<\/a> of what appropriate and inappropriate uses of dollars are. Think it to the opportunity. You can next turn to. I am incredibly grateful to the opportunity to speak to this committee. I am kristi putnam, the Arkansas Department<\/a> of Human Services<\/a> secretary. To be a state and federal grant manager, state and federal grant recipient, an employer seeking to participate in workforce programs as a partner and a potential benefits seeker. I couldve been a tenant recipient at several points in my life when i was a single mother. I now have experienced in several states working with the program i believe can be leveraged to promote thriving communities. Trust in me and our amazing team at the department of Human Services<\/a>, we now have an opportunity to completely revisit how tanf is being used in arkansas to support and strengthen families and communities. We are taking a holistic approach to tanf work by focusing on family centered practices, community empowerment, and what we call the abc Workforce Development<\/a> concept. We want people to have a job, but a better job, then a career. Specifically, steps we have already taken include with our Human Services<\/a> eligibility specialist. Families in need of support can access food assistance, childcare, and healthcare in one location. This is family centric. Mobilizing the same services to serve communities and families and transportation is an issue. This is also family centric. Meeting with employers, Community Organizations<\/a>, and Human Services<\/a> except to determine needs, employment opportunities, gaps and services, and help best to address. This is community empowering and results driven. On february 9th of this year, established the workforce cabinet and officer and executive order 23 to 16. Six state agencies that provide career and Technical Education<\/a> and Workforce Development<\/a>. Led by the chief workforce officer, we, the secretaries of these six cabinets meet monthly along with the secretary of transformation and shared services to prepare and recommend a data driven Strategic Plan<\/a> that will ensure a talent and outcome driven education and workforce system. These will fit into governor sanders priorities of education, Public Safety<\/a>, and economic element tax cuts. We will do this from strategic collaboration working to align resources that help people first find a job, been a better job, then finally, a career. A job entry level is a start but not a way to sustain household. A better job is next level that provides income and experience in a career in which people have been fulfilled. Meaningful work encourage individuals families to overcome hardships, increases mobility and supports better in physical mental health. Will be an important tool for the workforce cabinet in our efforts to increase arkansass workforce dissipation rate and families economic success. The Arkansas Legislature<\/a> was also instrumental in changing how we use our tanf dollars by passing legislation during the 2023 session to transfer the program from the division of Workforce Services<\/a> to the department of Human Services<\/a>. Legislative leadership recognized that in order to promote family economic stability and mechanized maximized initiatives, dhs could Order Services<\/a> inc. Including services that holistically meet the four purposes of tanf and provide assistance to removing barriers that work. With its transfer to dhs, we plan to integrate reconciliation of cash draws to expenditures and without existing finance and accounting unit that oversees draws for all of a federally funded Assistance Program<\/a>s. Arkansas is looking to be transformative while approving accountability and outcomes. Particularly around noncash assistance initiatives. To this end, i have three recommendations for this Community Around<\/a> tanf policy. First, continue to state with private, faithbased and immunity organizations if appropriate oversight is demonstrated. Second, consider allowing states to reinstate High Performance<\/a> moments is with payments not to the state for highperformance but to employers and families that successfully move their employees and themselves off of welfare. Third, review definitions and requirements for tanf that reflect with other benefit programs and seek to consolidate such policy to be consistent across all programs. Our children and families do not come to us in pieces. We need to stop planning and budgeting as if they do. In closing, i would like to express my sincere appreciation to chairman smith, working welfare subcommittee chairman, Ranking Member<\/a> davis, and all of the members of the committee. I look forward to your leadership on tanf policies that allow us in the states to be transformative in arkansas stands ready to work with it family and communities we serve. Thank you. Thank you, secretary putnam. We will record terry recognize. You are recognized for five minutes. Thank you, chairman. Members of the subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity to present testimony on the urgent matter of Effective Solutions<\/a> to lift families out of poverty. To begin, i would like to a knowledge that all of us sitting here share one common goal. To ensure that federal funding has a strong as possible impact on ending the devastation of poverty in america. To date, i focused on imposing restrictions and recipients to achieve which is proven to only intensify the efficiencies present in current policy. In effect, we are blaming the families for the property, rather than interrogating the policies that allowed these to occur. I at least bring forth opportunities which worked with families living in federally subsidized housing in mississippi. Families who are meant to be served by temporary assistance for needy families. Most are black women, mothers working fulltime. Many overtime but still living in poverty. On average, the families we work with make less than 13,000. The population network is the very population in which tanf was designed to support. One person out of the thousands i work with is currently receiving tanf. Brandy who has consistently worked while also raising her children. Like many lowwage workers, she has experienced brief breaks of an appointment while going between jobs. When she didnt meet the state requirement of getting the job within the week, she was forced to be a volunteer at the Mississippi Department<\/a> of Human Services<\/a> office. Filing paperwork from us less than minimum wage until she found what her caseworker deemed adequate employment. Brandys story is not unique. 90 of mississippi and to apply do not receive it. Families i work with site the barriers to entry including paperwork, a lack of supported services, fear of sanctions and inefficient financial support. Is a perfect example of this reality. She was working in the Food Service Industry<\/a> and as a full time caregiver for her grandparents. The only way maintain both responsibilities was to pay for child care for her daughter. Over 360 a month. 170 received from the state program would not have even covered the cost of childcare. Officials will claim that abuse in fraud but continue to attract property while the people in power overseeing the program. If anything can be learned by the tanf scandal in mississippi in which funds went to paying for stables rather than. Diapers for babies and food for families living in poverty. Are not the answer. Instead of increasing burdens that reduce the efficiency of the program and children to poverty, we should cut out the bureaucratic rampage. That is exactly what weve been doing for the last five years. A program that springboard started because so many government programs, including tanf, did not work. Instead of endless applications and heavy restrictions, the ilium of this trust offers 1000 a month in cash assistance to moms in poverty for one year. Without restrictions. In additions to cast support, our moms received one on one support from trained staff to help them identify their goals and support them along the way. Childcare, groceries, and utilities to allow the plan for the future. Like ebony who started as a salon owner. She is not only an entrepreneur but she is also employing others. Who just graduated with a degree in Early Childhood<\/a> education and is on her way to a higher paying job. Additionally, recipients are able to better provide for their children who, in turn, perform better in school. These results are lasting with Longitudinal Research<\/a> showing that families continue to reap the benefits of our oneyear Program Years<\/a> after it ends. In the five years in which we have been running this program, we have learned that the dignity and agency that cash without restriction provides, allows a family to dream about their future and reach toward it. Lets reimagine what is possible with tanf as we have done with the trust that provides cash assistance without work requirements. Because then we can truly enable families to break free from the cycle of poverty and achieve economic security. Thank you for your attention and i look forward to answering any questions you may have. Thank you very much, doctor. I want to thank all of you for your valuable testimony today and the contributions that you make. We will now proceed to the questionandanswer section of todays hearing and i will begin by recognizing myself. That start with you, auditor white. Could you go into some more detail on recommendations you have for us as federal lawmakers, as we hear about the scandal in mississippi and trying to make sure that that does not happen again and specifically, in your testimony you talked about policies related to making sure no one over 200 of poverty receives not assistant funds and limiting the number of exceptions for dollars flowing to nonimplant related activities. Thank you, mr. Chairman. A few recommendations we have discussed in my office, one has to do with the lack of monitoring. We saw at dhs in mississippi was the large grants being handed out to nonprofits and the agency, itself, was not showing proof that they went out and monitored those nonprofits to ensure that the dollars were actually going to benefit the people who are eligible. The office of the state auditor in mississippi, and this predates me, it goes back to my predecessor in 2013, found this happening in our department of Human Services<\/a> and wrote this in our single audit over and over, year after year. Our department of Human Services<\/a> is not monitoring its sub grantees nonprofits to enter the dollars are reaching needy folks. What we ultimately found is that there is a reason these nonprofits were not being monitored. The head of the agency did not want them monitored because handing large amounts of funds to the long nonprofits and then he and the nonprofit executives were discussing ways to spend those dollars in violation of the law, in violation of tanf. One easy recommendation that i would make is that any time hhs sees a single audit, and agency is not monitoring their sub grantees, their nonprofits, something needs to be done about it. Hhs needs to look closely at that nonprofit like penalties against the agency. Monitoring needs to be taken seriously. It was not in the state of mississippi. You mentioned the 200 , that i made. One thing i noticed in mississippi was that dollars were going to entities and causes where there was no proof that anyone participating in events was needy. For example, we would see dollars going to rent a private softball field and Softball Team<\/a>, a private Softball Team<\/a>. Would play on the top of field. Is anybody on the Softball Team<\/a> needy . The answer was no. Tanf dollars can go to folks who are not needy. Maybe it is okay that this happened and also, the softball field is in jackson and jets Jackson Metro<\/a> area is home to tons of needy folks. That was the justification for dhs. In our opinion, the Auditors Office<\/a> that did not comply with the four principles of tanf and it did not comply with tanf in the first place because there was no proof this was doing anything to advance any of the four printable. My point in making that comment about limiting the access of funds to folks under 200 of the Poverty Level<\/a> would be to say lets make it clear that this program is intended to benefit needy people and give state agency heads who might want to spend on folks who are not needy, more constraints to focus those dollars on the folks who actually need to benefit from tanf. What have you done in mississippi or has the state done to make sure this doesnt happen again . The first few steps were obviously all audit steps. We performed a single audits, we recorded what we found in a single audits to hhs. Mr. Carter was at hhs at the time and was incredible he responsibly was there. When we reported all this misspending to the federal agency. In addition to that, as we finished out our single audits, i encouraged our department of Human Services<\/a> to hire a private cpa firm to check our work basically. He went on pipe hired a private cpa from baltimore, maryland who came in and also determined tens of millions of dollars of tanf funds had been misspent in violation of tanf. After that happened, i used my Legal Authority<\/a> to demand over 96 million back from the folks who either benefited from the tanf funds or the folks who authorized the spending. After those demands were issued, the state of mississippi has now sued many of those individuals. That case, the civil case is alive in state court right now and is currently being litigated. As i said on the other side of this, the criminal side of this, prosecutors are still considering who they would like to charge. Six folks have pleaded guilty, two more have been indicted who have not pleaded guilty. That is where we are in terms of sending the public a message that this is not going to be allowed. Thank you. Alexa turned to. And youre nots testimony, you provided where he vetoed seven million including purposes outside the scope of the program. Could you share more on what role your state legislature plays in determining how state tanf not assistant funds were used and how do you work with state legislators to ensure their posed project fit within tanf statutorys . Thank you, mr. Chairman for the question. We do, the apartment of social services, work very closely with our General Assembly<\/a> and our General Assembly<\/a> is very, very aggressive and very illegal eager to strategically use tanf dollars , block grant dollars to meet Community Needs<\/a> in their districts. From time to time, we find and have found in misery overwhelmingly, that the projects that they seek funding for due fit within the four purposes of tanf but sometimes they dont. That does not mean they are about Public Policy<\/a> or about initiative. That simply means they dont tanf. Are dollars are appropriated through the General Assembly<\/a>, after which we go through procurement contracting, very close monitoring process but again, legislators are eager to use those dollars and we are very aggressive to steer them away from tanf when it is not an appropriate use. Sometimes those projects will make it through the legislative process and reach the governors desk. For example, we had one project this year it was a program that we had continued to fund it year after year, a very worthy tanf program that took 3 million per year. An additional million was included for a building. We realized that Capital Projects<\/a> were not allowable for tanf expenditures, therefore, that Million Dollars<\/a> was vetoed by the governor. There was another project that one of our partners of kansas city was proposing that actually is a project that began take place predominantly on the kansas side of the Kansas City Missouri<\/a> regional area. Those dollars were reduced. Our legislature likes to very aggressively spend our tanf dollars. We do not want to put them in the bank. We get very close and sometimes have to reduce if the legislature over appropriates the dollars that we have available but it is constant munication. We do monitor these projects. In misery, we have a stringent procurement contracting process to make sure standards are followed are implemented. We monitor the department and employ contract role monitoring all the weight to the subsidy model. Thank you, director. How is your team evaluating past assistant funding grants and what is your process for refocusing on outcomes expediting reviews and defunding grants and doubling down . Thank you for the question, mr. Chair. We are looking at all the sub grants that of been awarded over the years. There are some sub grants that have yielded positive outcomes. We are able to look at continuing those but we are not automatically renewing as there have been some automatic renewals in the past. We are also looking at the Program Management<\/a> costs by consolidating the tanf program into department of Human Services<\/a> , working with our county offices that we have in every county across the state. We are also reducing the administrative cost to oversee the program and financial controls necessary. Thank you for that. I yield to Ranking Member<\/a> davis. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I am appalled that the state has chosen to award roughly 6 billion in tanf rather than spend these funds as intended to help families with children. Could you talk about the disconnect between the ability for these families and individuals who receive tanf benefits in the state of mississippi . Yes, thank you for that question. I am sitting here and i have this visual of a bandaid trying to go over a geyser because i feel like this is the conversation that we are having right now as it relates to tanf. We are talking about a bandaid over a geyser. Tanf is woefully inadequate in the state of mississippi and other states as well. The families are so afraid of the sanctions and the paperwork that it takes actually go about receiving these benefits, they have made a costbenefit analysis to just not receive the benefits at all. An example of this is that if you go to the process of trying to receive tanf in mississippi and you do not go about fulfilling the requirements that are not laid out use you do not actually know what the requirements are, they are at the whim of your caseworker. If you do not go about successfully filling those requirements, you could be sanctioned. That sanction could be you losing your snap, your tanf. Whatever the sanction is the caseworker feels appropriate. That is a debilitating reality. Families have chosen not to participate in it. Less than 1 of families with in mississippi actually go about receiving cash assistance from tanf. Mississippi is one of the poorest states within this country. There is a clear disconnect, the argument that i have heard officials in mississippi use is that we cannot find any poor people. In which i say go outside. You will eventually find one. As we are a state with a significant number of needs and instead of going about having the conversation of how do we truly make sure families receive the cash assistance that they need so they can live a life and raise their kids, so that they can get to work. Since we keep talking about work which is very expensive. Having a job is expensive when you are poor. You have to put gas in your car, you have to have a car. You have to pay for uniforms to work, to get to work. Instead of making it easy for those processes to happen, we keep penalizing families and we keep providing families for what it is they need instead of simply asking what is it that you need in order to live a life of dignity . Thank you. Thank you very much. Commissioner carter, i am aware of your work with farther red programs. That is work that i am very interested in my cell. In your testimony, you included the fy 21 trump budget with your time at the administration. I am glad to know you are spending down the 7 million. Can you confirm that in the truck budget recommended section that prohibits oversight . Im sorry. Can you give me the end of the question again. Im asking if that prohibition was in the budget, or if you recall. It was not in what we proposed to be demonstrated. We did not speak to not having federal oversight. The whole notion behind those demonstrations was to have states take a step back and look at how you could actually blend multiple safety net programs to achieve the objective of helping individuals and families grow beyond the social economic and develop vulnerability that happens in public supports. Nothing in that spoke to lack of federal oversight. Thank you very much. I look forward to interacting with the initiatives. I am very much interested. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Think you, mr. Davis. Pursuing two committee practice. We will now move to. I now recognize dr. Nguyen strome. Thank you all for being here today and for holding this hearing. I want to thank all the witnesses for taking the time to be with us. Based on the testimony weve heard today, there is a clear need for better guard rails, accountability, and outcome measurement for tanf not assisted spending. I introduced the workforce opportunity to land the work act. This builds an example of how it can implement outcome measurements in tanf and support americans transition from assistance into the workforce. Mr. Carter, i am very impressed with your resume and years of experience. I want to start with you. 32 years. That is impressive. And i think what we are talking about for a lot of people is an opportunity to develop the knowledge, skills, and abilities that you need to enter the workforce. Having those opportunities there. When i look at that, i want to look at it somewhat scientifically. I want to see what opportunities are missing for people. I will give you an example. I go to a Vocational School<\/a> of kids who are learning welding. They are the happiest kids alive because they know they have a job waiting for them that is going to pay them all. That is the hope i think you talk about. Sometimes its in your education. Sometimes its in your church. Sometimes it in your family. All of those things factor into the selfesteem that you may have in the life which you leave. Opportunities need to be there. Talk about poverty for a second. I Practice Medicine<\/a> privately for 27 years. I took care of some of the poorest of the poor. I understand the struggles. Transportation struggles. All of those types of things. Trying to work with our patients on those. But for property itself, what are some of the common denominators that you find that people have in poverty . I do not mean to put words in your mouth but i look at education, family structure, faith, all of those types of things. Rural access because it too far. What are some of the things that you have seen over the years . We certainly have seen a broad range of challenges and conditions that lead to poverty and quite frankly, the design and operation of our safety net, it does not address those. Our argument is that our system has to become person or family centric. And what we mean by that is weve got to begin with that individual or that family. Understand their unique problems. Not try to fit them into our individual programs but understand them and their totality, and then we are able to build a service plan that addresses the whole person. I think the secretary putnam said the folks that we serve, they do not come to us in the bits and pieces of our programs. They come to us as connected individuals in families and our system is not an designed to address that. That is what i think we need to be talking about. I will give you an example. There is a county in my district called rural impact. That gave the caseworker authorities to make things happen fast. For that individual or that particular family, a needy family. A couple with six kids. He says i cannot take that third shift job because i have nowhere to sleep when i come home because we are living in a one room cabin. That is addressing the issue. She was able. I had seen her a couple months later. I said how are they doing . She said i got them into a home with bedrooms. He is working, she is working, and we got childcare. This is what we have to focus on. Getting back to the individual, that family. And in the process, how we are spending our money. And oversight over those decisionmaking processes that are taking place. I do not know if any of you heard of that rural impact program, but i suggest to take a look at it because i think it was pretty successful for the short time they served in maybe we need to take another look at it here and talk about implementing some of those things. That was not what i intended to ask about or talk about but i think it was important. Anyway, i yield back. Thank you. Thank you. We recognize mr. Carey from ohio. Rookie. Yeah. I am a rookie. I apologize. Mr. Chairman, i just want to make a point. I am looking at everybody. A big 10 person, i was a little disappointed in not seeing any of our. You touch on a few things and im going to ask some other questions. First of all, really, we all appreciate you making the trip to d. C. We know it is a lot. We know it is tough to get in. We appreciate all of your testimonies. I know you are prepared. You worked on it, answering our questions. Dr. , tell me a little bit more. Is it the Magnolia Mothers<\/a> trust . I was pulling it up as you were talking about it. Where does the cash come from, number one. Number two, it is only one year . It cannot go on after that . Am i correct . Is. Think of the questions, congressman. Yes, it is a oneyear program, 12,000 is the total. It is only for that time. And it does not go beyond any year and it is privately funded. No government money comes into this program . No government money. We truly believe that the best way to lift families out of poverty is to lift. I would ask my colleagues if you have not googled your program to google it. I think it is a success story. You started off with 20 . And you are in your fourth iteration now . Yes. We are going into our fifth year. We have supported over 300 mothers but not me is it our program, it is a model that can be replicated to show how you can go about giving family resources, cash resources and the federal government as a perfect example with the Child Tax Credit<\/a>, which we had for six months as well giving families cash without restrictions. Somebody that truly believes, it shows that the private sector, that is what made america great, according to. Really was good to read about your program. I think its fantastic. Thank you. Just a couple questions. Mr. Robin knodell, missouri spends a large portion of your work funds on work education trading activities. One of these programs and how do you measure their success to make sure that tanf not Assistance Spending<\/a> is making a difference . Thank you, representative for that question. In missouri, we monitor our programs with measurement. Ultimately, the measures and we publish publicly each year are Performance Measures<\/a> as a department in terms of how our programs perform but each program is based on Program Quality<\/a> of how many people are learning a skill successfully and that is a certification, Vocational Training<\/a> completion. It is employment rate. We also measure whether that individual remains on public assistance or does not. We measure who they returned to public assistance in a reasonably short amount of time. We have also look at the efficiency of the dollar spec, whether that is administrative spending, whether thats overhead, actually dollars to eight program that is providing service to a family but our annual budget books that we are required by state statute to provide each year in the state of missouri has detailed Performance Measures<\/a>. We do is you corrective action plans and sanction providers that do not perform at that level. Again, based on a single audit finding that we had several years ago, my state auditor to my right would attest to the importance of the single audit process. We have implemented sub recipient longterm. I appreciate that. Mr. Carter, im going to ask you a question. National guard mississippi, appreciate your service. What branch . Air national guard. Im always tempted to salute when i see him. So my. Commissioner carter, what recommendations do you have to ensure that tanf continues to be targeted toward we do not have a lot of time. You know what . I am going to yield back and balance my time for the record. I will submit something for the record. Yield back. Thank you. I recognize misses more from wisconsin. Thank you very, very much mr. Chairman. I want to thank my colleagues for attending and all of our great witnesses. This is prime time. I am not talking about prime day on amazon. We are all agreeing on the fact that tanf is just the story of waste, fraud, and abuse. It is not, waste, fraud, and abuse of some recipient from mississippi getting 265 to which they are not entitled. It is the design of this program. The program is designed to provide money. It is feuding building a huge bureaucracy. People are getting jobs to sanction welfare recipient. They are getting jobs in wisconsin, when we started the program, is where welfare reform started. We had a position called diversion specialist. It was that person to job to tell you that you did not need any aid. Not only that, tanf was written and provided bonuses. Up to four profit agencies and incentivize states by giving them caseload reduction credit, money, and stuff that they could use for decreasing the roles. That does not mean that the recipient would get a job, just throw them off and you could keep the profit. I am reading from a budget paper. When we ended welfares note in wisconsin. At this reading from one of the budget papers, i was on the joint media finance at that time. I pulled this out. Just to refresh my memory, this was unlimited money. There was no restrictions on the money and this particular year, 1999, we provided 24 million in bonus money. I will submit all this stuff for the record. I am just looking at my colleagues here today. In your state, only 7 of the total of 196 million that your state got was spent on assistance. But 29 of it was spent on other services. I am looking at california which is one of those woke states. They spent 37 of their money on helping people and only 13 of other services. Illinois, mr. Chairman and Ranking Member<\/a>, basic assistance, 4 . Mississippi, well, 6 on basic assistance. Commissioner carter, you are not on the committee but i thought i would look up what you guys do. I do not want my time to run out because i do have more questions. You i suspend 37 of 41 on basic assistance versus 1 on other services. He was a quarterback for wisconsin. I was a fan. All i am saying is that this has just started. I have had communities that have spent money on infrastructure, like i said, for luxury apartments. Brett favre is just one of them. He is not all of them. I do have a question. These not Assistance Spending<\/a> is a topic here today. What should we really be talking about in terms of solving . You mentioned a few things like your project. Which cut poverty in half and then the earned income tax credit which, in wisconsin, i was the one that negotiated to at least use some of the dollars to provide the earned income tax credit. What would you say . I have 20 seconds left and i yield to you. All i need is five. We need to figure how to get families more money without restrictions. We need to increase the basic assistance. Forced people to go to work, how has that worked . It has not. That is why we are having this conversation. Okay. Thank you and mr. Chairman, i want to thank you for this hearing. It is prime time because we all agree this program is a failure and i yield back. Thank you. Excuse me. I would like to ask to have more time to put things in the record, if that is appropriate now or i will wait. Can i tell you what i want to put in . What you put them together and we will. Thank you, sir. We recognize mr. Mohr, from utah. Thank you. Given the comments, i would like to also add my opinion that i think playing only eight games against any teams is kind of a travesty. And puts an unfair footing across the nation. I will not worry about that. The pac12 engages in real competition. Labor force Participation Rate<\/a> which i would say every single state, i wish we could have them all higher but we have not fully recovered after the pandemic. A lot of that has to do with strong state leadership in our success of using tanf not assistance dollars to fund working preparation activities. According to hhs, utah spent nearly 20 of its funds on work education Training Program<\/a>s in 2021. The National Average<\/a> for comparison is only 7. 6 . I do not think it is any surprise that our workforce is doing really well among a lot of other factors but that particular is something that we really focused on and making sure that we were using money very effectively to particularly, as people were getting displaced, retraining, rescaling, or that type of stuff. You mentioned that arkansas has the lowest labor force Participation Rate<\/a> in the country. What is arkansass strategy to meet its residents where they are and help them get back into the workforce using non Assistance Funds<\/a> . Thank you for the question. It may not be the lowest but its very near the lowest. Our workforce Participation Rate<\/a> hovers around 5657 . Our plan, we have the workforce cabinet which is the six cabinet secretaries who have anything to do with education, technical and career education, Workforce Development<\/a>. We are looking at Strategic Investment Opportunities<\/a> for tanf and what i mean by that is oklahoma has been leading on this but we want to use the workforce cabinet and work with philanthropic organizations and Community Organizations<\/a> and look at Investment Strategies<\/a> they are using, align them with the outcomes that we wish to accomplish which include really diriyah redirecting education to come to Meaningful Outcomes<\/a> and be informed by employers and sector strategy from our laborforce markets. Thank you so much. Ms. Mr. Carter, i may be biased but prior to coming to congress, i worked for a firm that did a lot of monitoring evaluation. Particularly in social impact space and i am noticing in your testimony, i really appreciate it that you kept highlighting as a state you were very interested in putting together some evaluation of how your programs were going in and you are prohibited from doing that with the tanf not Assistance Funds<\/a>. Can you share, elaborate a little bit more on that. There was a previous question that you may want to respond to as well. Sure. The giver the question. Our governor and legislature, when we put together this legislation to, in an impactful way, spend our tanf dollars, one of the things we said is we want to know what works. We want to evaluate the things that you are going to spend these dollars on. We went about trying to engage in a Valuation Firm<\/a> but were informed by our federal partners that it does not meet an eligible purpose. Literally, you could not spend money on the program to understand if it works. We had to spend our own state money in order to do that but we have done that and we have random controlled trials for all seven of these and they really are very much the gold standard. We will know when we get to the end of these threeyear demonstration periods, we will know what Component Parts<\/a> of the seven work, what dont work, and that would help us reshape our overall tanf Program Going<\/a> forward. The other thing, i just want to speak on. This idea of forcing people to work, as if somehow work is a bad four letter word. We believe that every Employment Opportunity<\/a> that is moral, legal, and ethical, and intended earnings create a pathway to freedom. I hearken back to secretary putnams abcs. A job, a better job, a career. There is nothing wrong. Work is essential. We think that that helps create the pathway beyond. It is an important component part of how we are going about transforming tennessee safety. Thank you so much. I appreciate those comments. As the federal government, we are pound and any foolish. We refuse to spend a little bit of money sparkly to have a greater impact in this is a clear example of that. Thank you. Thank you. I recommend recognize misses steele of california. Thank you, mr. Chairman for hosting this hearing and thank you to our witnesses for sharing concerns on how states are using nonassistance funding for tanf. Issues with the current law. I hope we can work in a bipartisan matter to create that space of. Two major things i always hear from our constituents. My constituents, and Small Businesses<\/a> in my district is the lack of workforce and childcare. Having said that, auditor white, from your perspective, in what ways did current tanf law help enable the kickback scheme scandal to onboard, grow, and continue . Thank you for the question. I discussed a little bit briefly about the lack of monitoring and the lack of enforcement from hhs when an agency does not monitor. I would say that structure of the program helped enable the fraud that we saw in mississippi. I will add to that and say that i think that over the course of the last few years, we have not seen the federal government take strong action when misses benning does happen. In mississippi, for example, we submitted our single audit in the spring of 2020. That 2020. That is over three years ago. To date, we dont know what hhs response will be to that audit. The state of mississippi is still waiting to hear. I think the federal government could send a strong signal that the program itself takes fraud in spending seriously. And the what penalties it is going to impose on the state. Were talking about, in mississippi, north of 100 million when you add the tanf misspending. And the other programs that dont include tanf and ccf. We have many wedding in mississippi to figure out how they will have to pay back into the tanf fund or other funds. As a problem, there is not a strong signal being spent. Especially with tanf is being taken seriously. Did you hear anything from hhs that they have to respond are they just totally ignoring your state . They did not totally ignore us. We sent our single audit in the first half of 2020. Mr. Carter was at hhs at the time. He responded quickly. I would say that when the administration changed, it was a fall off in communication. My office has not communicated with hhs since august of 2021. I dont know how frequently our department of Human Services<\/a> communicates today. I dont know what sort of Technical Assistance<\/a> that office is providing to mississippis dhs heard there has been frustration that i have heard from our dhs that there is a lack of clarity about what the federal government will do about what happened you hear from other states too are only your state . Mainly my communications with our department of Human Services<\/a>. Secretary putnam, some spit states spend tanf dollars on childcare directly. And others put in the child care and development grant. Do you have insight as to why states spend directly and does that create duplication and fragmentation for families . Why do states choose to put it in childcare . Do think the current 3 cap on transfers is the right amount. I think there are several questions and there for me. There is three. The questions into insights as they choose spend directly versus making a trance transfer. I seek to gain insight as we move tanf over to dhs. My first of this year, the question about whether the 30 cap on transfers, i do think the 30 allows for flexibility. I think that conversations with this committee could yield whether or not that should be increased, perhaps it should be decreased. The transfer is not at issue as much as your question about the fragmentation for families. That is the biggest question that i seek to answer. I seek your help on. There is fragmentation not just with tanf across the different programs but it can funds statewide. Also with the federal programs that we have to, as state leadership, cobbled together to try to serve at all family read i appreciate dr. When streps concept about the worker being able to work fast. We would like to be able to read resources quickly. We want to appropriate oversight. If that means they can be tracked, that would be a good direction. Thank you. I have another question but i will just a minute so we can get the answer later on. Thank you missed deal. Now i yield to mr. Evans of pennsylvania. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I yield to my colleague from wisconsin. Thank you, mr. Evans. I will be brief. I want to respond to commissioner carter. I agree with you, work is not a dirty word. All of us artwork now. I make enough money to have clean the student and have my hair done and by toothpaste. Work that is bereft of equity and benefits is called slavery. There is a name for that kind of work. I dont appreciate the federal government being in pertinent and trying to fill the needs of our workforce with tanf recipients. And disallowing them good education and training so that they can, indeed, crying climb the career ladder. You cannot really help anyone or anything like that under current rules. Really . To go to college. Yes, i can. Anyway, im going to yield back to mr. Evans and maybe he will take you up on that. The way the wages are structured, you work activities. You cannot get childcare and all of that and less you are meeting these work requirements, which are very, very defiant and restrictive. I yield back to you, sir. Mr. Chairman, i and my democratic colleagues are serious about lifting American Families<\/a> out of poverty. There are many ways we can better support families. If republican colleagues are serious about lifting American Families<\/a> out of poverty, i would urge them to support expanding the Child Tax Credit<\/a>. If republican colleagues are serious about lifting republican families out of poverty, i would urge them to support a Career Pathway<\/a> approach to Workforce Development<\/a>. Like the healthy, professionally opportunity. It is under this committees jurisdiction. It is already incredibly stressful for families to navigate the orders and requirements of the federal government. Many families already struggle to afford necessities. The lack of access to important support services, including paid family leave and medical services. I see apsley no need to include drastic work requirements and federal assistance that would make it much harder. I see absolutely no need to make it even more difficult for low income families to access the help that they need. Instead, we need to respect and interest families. By Congressional District<\/a> is part of our nations poorest big city. I represent many communities that are trying to rise out of poverty. They have been marred by generations due to racial policies, including redlining. It is important for going to have a serious discussion, mr. Chairman, we have some ideas. In fact, my colleague gwen moore worked under previous people to build on it. We know what to do. We just need to do it. Again, i would like to yield back to you chair. Yield to mr. Schmucker of pennsylvania. Thank you, mr. Chairman. This is a great discussion. I would like to thank each of the panelists for the work that you are doing. I think all of this and to mr. Evans point, my colleague from pennsylvania and friend, i think all of this in both parties are very interested in the grateful to live in a country where there is a safety net where people can get assistance when they need it and when there is a pathway to that family sustaining job that is important. I think these kind of discussions are critical to ensuring that we are doing the best that we can affirm our level and at every level to make sure that works. And if some of the points that you made were really important, i particularly related, you talked about families are a unit. When they go to Access Programs<\/a> and they are silent and it is difficult to do that. In my community there was an initiative before covid. It has fallen apart. All of the individuals came together and created a program. It was aptly named one great job or Something Like<\/a> that. It is measured by people coming into the system and being connected to a job. It was all of the agencies working together with software. Someone could come into the system and be referred to the help that they needed and they did not have to keep going. I wish we did more to incentivize that kind of work rather than creating silos. To some degree, we cannot do that at the federal level. You have to do it at your levels and at the county levels. The question i have, mr. Carter, back to you. You talked about tennessee. You said they have the highest level of dollars never not spent. Pennsylvania is right behind that. I guess i would like to understand how that happens. Frankly, i dont know. How could we at the federal level give states optimum flexibility but also ensure that there is accountability in the process. Thanks for the question. How it happens is lack of innovation for how to use those dollars to grow the capacity those to reduce dependency. A lot of discussion about needing more cash assistance. I think we need more innovation around the intention to help that family grow be on the vulnerability so that one day they can take the baton of their life and run their own race. We have not designed this intentionally to achieve that objective. What happens is you have your basic cash assistance. Whatever dollars the state chooses to use to achieve other objectives, child left and childcare, what have you that which is not spent because it there is no shelflife it accrues. Over the course of years, in tennessee, it occurred north of 700 million. It was not that we did not have eligible families. It was that we were not being innovative enough with how to put those dollars to use and we have turned the ship on that. Thank you. I would love to continue that discussion. Mr. White, a similar question after what youve seen in mississippi. What kind of guard rails should we be thinking about here in this committee and at the federal level to ensure we dont have a repeat of what happened in mississippi . Thank you for the question. I know there is a tension between flexibility and accountability. The agency has more flexibility to engage in creative practices as an auditor, it is important to point out that too much like civility can send a signal that no one is watching where money is going. First, you engage in Innovative Program<\/a> and they decide i will donate some tanf money to the American Heart Association<\/a> because i like the American Heart Association<\/a> and that seems fine. Then you spend money on renting an office space that you happen to own as a nonprofit head but youre not using the office space. I think these dominoes fall because people start to believe people who are handling the money start to believe no one is watching. There is a middle ground balance to strike between flexibility and accountability. It is just another example of a measure that strikes that middle ground. We did a terrible job in mississippi of tracking outcomes and allowing dhs to track outcomes and demanding that the agency head sign statements that showed how many people were actually helped with tanf dollars. I think you would see both a mix of innovation to drive outcomes and accountability, where the outcomes would have to be proven. Thank you. I now yield to mr. Smith of nebraska. I apologize i had to step out briefly. I miss some of your testimony. This is such a timely topic. Amidst the economic struggles that many are facing, i hope we dont make the mistake of focusing so many efforts on tax dollars rather than Human Dignity<\/a>. I have the honor of chairing the subcommittee in 2018. When i first introduce a bill called jobs for success act. Emesis, jobs for success. It was not just the jobs act of 2018 but jobs for success. I worry that we, perhaps in the interest of checking boxes, you know, we will, perhaps, push someone towards a job. And then that is it. Out the door, out of our minds. Yet, that in and of itself will likely not have a positive outcome. Unless, that individual is in a position of upward trajectory and able to provide for his or her family, engage in the community there could be numerous definitions of success. I get that. I hope that we could focus on the ultimate outcomes rather than just checking boxes. I think that when you look at various whether it is estate using tanf dollars to fund middleclass, private Scholar College<\/a> scholarships or the fraudulent case that was covered, mr. White, by your efforts. I think we can do better. I am interested in working together so that we can focus on Human Dignity<\/a>. And doing better by individuals. I am curious, auditor right, during your investigation when you did uncover the tanf funds were not appropriate being used how common or how in terms of frequency, would you say the dollars were spent . I would say the normal from 2016 to 2019 in mississippi for the dollars to be misspent rather than spent on allowable purchases. When we start looking back, we realized that at some point in 2016 when former director davis took over, large dollar grants were be given to two specific nonprofits. Over the course of three to four years, the dollar of the them increased dramatically. By the end, youre seeing the main bulk of tanf money going to the nonprofits. Spending it in ways that, at minimum, they cannot show Human Flourishing<\/a> or benefit to anyone who is needy. At worst, going to being spent fraudulently. It was really a tragedy unfolding in a very short amount of time over the course of three or four years. Thank you. How would you reflect on the monitoring and the tracking of the Financial Data<\/a> and outcomes and what your insight would be on the monitoring and tracking . It is important that it occur in real time. We tried to, actually, monitor programs with onsite visits and financial reviews within the First Six Months<\/a> of a contract being awarded and the service being provided. So much of the auditing world is done after the fact. After dollars are out the door. Dollars that our fellow citizens have paid in taxes. It is very important to us, again, the programs that we find in the state of missouri, you know, are very good Public Policy<\/a> purposes. Sometimes you have new organizations that lack the bandwidth and resources to properly account for the dollars. They lack the back Office Support<\/a> to do that. We must have the culture of compliance. I would echo auditor whites comments. I think a robust federal monitoring presents and a robust federal office of Inspector General<\/a> presence around these programs will not only help states administer their programs correctly but also send me message to the providers out there that this is not the wild west. Again, for us, it is monitoring and really working out the process while the dollars are being spent as opposed to after the look back. Thank you my time has expired. Now yield to miss school. I want to thank all of our witnesses. I think the overwhelming conclusion one can take from listening to the testimony and questioning is that the tanf programs are not working the way that we all would want them to work. The reality is that it is not just a federal program. It is a state program too. The state has tos been the money in order to get more federal money. As i understand it the ability to have so much waste, fraud and abuse in a program and continuously funding this program knowing this program is not addressing the real needs of the people who need that assistance. When i think about the fact that the four Funding Sources<\/a> i guess tanf can find four different things. They can been assisting families, reducing the dependency of parents in need by promoting preparation and work. It can be used to prevent pregnancies among unmarried persons and a can be used to encourage the formation and maintenance of two parent households. States can define mediate what ever they may want to define needy. Im here to tell you that the state of alabama, like the state of mississippi and the state of florida i can go down the list. They define it in such a narrow way. People have to be downright dirt poor in order to get tanf. We know the cost of living has soared. The fact that you have to have, you know, money not only for childcare but healthcare. And the interdependency of these different programs. I think about the fact that the first two i just said, we do find that we leave the discretion up to the states. I dont understand how the federal government continuously funds a program that does not actually do what it is meant to do. That is why i wanted to talk to you about whether or not how would you reimagine this program . If you had, you know, a group of policymakers in front of you , how would you tell them to reimagine this program . Policymakers, by the way, that have the jurisdiction to change this program. Please. Tots a much thank you so much for the question i reimagine with the families at the center. We keep talking about having an audit and doing an audit of financial spending. How about we audit what families of needs are. How about we have a panel with families and say, what is it that you need . How do we meet you there. So many families that live in poverty come in with this idea of telling them what it is that they need and do not need. How they must govern their lives. We tell them that you should take your baton back. You should not have a baton to begin with. I would start by auditing the families and having those conversations with them. The four pillars that we have in tanf no longer makes sense for where we are today. Just reading it aloud, we also think it is being very paternalistic. The work requirements with in tanf are realistic. There are some of the most paternalistic and restrictive. Not saying family should not have to work we are saying they should not be required to take any job that we say they have to take. A lot of instances those jobs are minimumwage jobs with no benefit, no protections, no ability to be sick or take care of your children. Were saying it is what you do because you have to work. Were tying work with dignity. We have this very narrow definition of work, just like we have a very narrow definition of needy. If i had politicians at my whim , i would say you definitely have an audience with them for the next two more minutes. I would say let us reimagine tanf and take ourselves out of the equation and put families at the center. I also know that the paperwork is arduous. The fact of the matter is you can only make a certain amount of money to stay on tanf. Youre not even encouraged to get a better job. Let alone, have the resources to go to school to better yourself. I feel like we are creating the perpetual cycle. Mr. Chairman and Ranking Member<\/a>, i think we would be well served if we had a Small Task Force<\/a> of republicans and democrats to really focus in on redesigning tanf so that it really does get to the assistance of needy families. Not all this other waste that is going on. We know what is going on. We hear about what is going on but we dont do anything to change that. I dont think we should be punitive to families. We need to be punitive to the folks who are behind all this fraud. We need to utilize the money, a lot of the really good taxpayer money going for a safety net. But as really make a net that is safe. Thanks. I yield back the rest of my time. Thank you, ms. Sewell. Thank you to the witnesses. I really appreciate what you do. I thank you to my colleagues for your comment. We know this is a tough issue. Nobody wants the truly needy not to get the services that they need. As ms. Sewell just pointed out, make sure they are able to take advantage any longer. How do we get to the people that are needy . I appreciate your comments on that. I will say i come from a state where we dont have good controls. The hhs office of Inspector General<\/a> recently audited the program in new york and found to begin areas of noncompliance. We are of the concern about the nature of the federal requirements and the focus of tanf. The findings concluded that new york could not ensure that is report expenditures in 2016, which were over 4. 8 million met federal requirements and were used in accordance with the intent and purposes of the program. We do have a problem with people taking advantage and really hurting the people that are needy, which is what i think we need to focus on. I was going to ask secretary putnam first. I know this question was asked by mr. Smith and others. How does arkansas ensure that proper cantilever contract and projects what processed is used to ensure they meet the purpose . I want to take note of the fact that mr. Smith talk about process versus outcomes. I think it is important we deal with outcomes and not checking boxes. It actually harkens back to mr. Entry three talking about the outcomes and if the job is a good fit. What would you do on some of these and how does arkansas do with that. Maybe we can help new york do a better job. The highest tax in the country right now, by the way. We beat california recently. My husband is from new york. There is a reason he no longer lives there. I will start by saying that, again, we at dhs have transferred the tanf program over to department of Human Services<\/a>. Were working with Workforce Services<\/a> who previous had responsibly for the tanf grant and grantees. I think to auditor whites comments about paying attention. I think recognizing there does need to be flexibility. If there is a benefit to cash assistance of the component, there is also a huge benefit and flexibility of the noncash assistance part to his commas will be able to support someone moving into a nursing position who was not in that position before and the question then becomes all of us paying attention collectively together. In arkansas, specifically, we are going to subject the subgrant made through tanf to the controls we currently have with our other programs like s. N. A. P. , medicaid and the Child Development<\/a> program. Is there flexibility in the program to tailor to a family . Is that something you can do under arkansas laws . We believe there is flexibility to tailor to the needs of the family. It takes relationships as well. It is not just about checking boxes and putting the requirements first. It is about assessing the needs of the individuals and the communities and working with the families and the communities to make sure that we are holding that accountable for the outcomes they profess and for the economic stability. Thank you, mr. Carter. You mentioned the state Advisory Board<\/a> for tanf input. What does it look like . How do you have the flexibility is that a model we can replicate in new york to get the flexibility and the human touch . Everyone is unique. That is our system. We recognize people are unique in our system of government. That is why we have decisional law and not go not codes. How have you been able to successfully do that in your position . First of all, begin with that intention. Chairman smith talked about not just checking the box and looking at Human Dignity<\/a>. What is troubling is that we are not held accountable for Human Dignity<\/a> for fighting, for freedom. We are held accountable for checking the box. That is where we have to drive the kinds of changes in the system. It ought to be our intention, the data that individual family shows up on our doorstep it ought to be our intention to help them meet the immediate crisis and then pivot to how we come alongside you and help you grow beyond this vulnerability. It is not that we dont want to serve you. It is that we dont wish for any of our neighbors to have to live on the scrap from the public table. It ought to be our societal intention to help folks grow beyond. If you start with that notion in mind, you can absolutely taylor tanf to achieve that objection. My time is up. I would love to hear more off line. Thanks so much for the witnesses. Thank you ms. Tenney. Ms. Moore. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I would like to add materials to the records to which i referred during my questioning and time. Without objection. First of all, some data from the center on budget and policy priorities. I selected some state representatives of our witnesses on the amount of spending for bases assistance as compared to other categories. I would like to enter that into the record. Without objection. I would also refer to the structure of the program, which wisconsin has credit for starting it. We ended welfare as we know it before anyone else. People model their programs after hours. Without objection. We created incentives for people to provide profits to companies if they produce their caseloads. I would like to enter the workforce to vomit economic support and childcare legislative Fiscal Bureau<\/a> paper to my pile of papers here. The last thing i want is an audit from the wisconsin legislature, maximus, a virginiabased for Profit Agency<\/a> on questionable expenses that they had. So awarded. Thank you. Two mr. Davis. Id like to submit new mexico order, without objection. That concludes our question and answer period today. I want to thank all the members here today for their questions. Honestly, the witnesses before us for your substantive testimony, your suggestions and ideas. The things that you caused us to think about today. Very, helpful as we continue to do our work on figuring out how we reamended tanf. And keeping in mind the taxpayer and how we are fiscally responsible with the money that we spend with taxpayer money, which is always important. And then figuring out how we help grow you out of poverty. I think you use the analogy of creating the opportunity to give you the baton to run your own race. That stuck with me. We, again, are grateful for you being here today. I think everyone shares the belief and understanding that our responsibility to low income families is to ensure that tanf funds are spent wholly to lift americans out of poverty. I am hopeful that we can Work Together<\/a> on developing bipartisan reforms to this program to make sure critical woelfel dollars are being used for their intended purposes. Please be advised that members will have two submit questions to be answered in writing. Those questions will be made part of the formal record. Again, i want to thank you all for the time and effort it took to be here. We look forward to staying in touch. Committee is adjourned. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] today a hearing on problems with the veteran administrations website and the benefits of claims to be delayed or lost for 100,000 veterans and their survivors. Watch the house subcommittee hearing on Technology Modernization<\/a> my jet 3 15 p. M. Eastern on cspan3 , mobile video app or online at c span. Org. If you miss any coverage you can find it any time online at cspan. Org. Videos of key hearings, debates and other events feature workers that guide you to interesting and new were the highlights. These points of interest markers appear on the right hand side of your screen and you hit play on select videos. This timeline makes it easy to quickly get an idea what was debated and decided washing. Scroll through and spend a few minutes on cspans point of interest. A healthy democracy does not just look like this. It looks like this. Americans can see democracy at work and citizens are truly informed and the public thrives. Get informed straight from the source. Unfiltered, unbiased, word for word. From the Nations Capital<\/a> to wherever you are. 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