Yeah. And again, the book is Sheila Johnson through fire. We didnt even get into the meaning of salamander, but this book is about love, loss and. Of course, her amazing journey, her triumphs and her sacrifices. So please, its a greatin. As i look out over the audience, im of something Adlai Stevenson said at the 1960 Democratic Convention because even though he was trying to get nominated, he wasnt announced candidate. So i walked onto the floor of the convention and he got completely mobbed and as he left a Television Commentator there, said to him, who do you thinks going to win . He said, the last survivor, huh . So i want to welcome you all as last survivors. Look, im honored to be here with two of the most vital and insightful public intellectuals in america, whom i read all the time. Anne applebaum is a Pulitzer Prize winning historian, writer for the atlantic, senior fellow at the Johns Hopkins of advanced international studies. Her latest book is, quote, the twilight of democracy the seductive lure of by the way. When i recall a lot of the book titles that weve heard about during this festival, im tempted to think theres more than a little pessimism here about the future. Ezra klein min is a columnist for the New York Times, where he also hosts the ezra klein podcast at a young age. He has a storied career in journalism and as a is New York Times best seller is entitled why were polarized. Another optimistic take on where we are in america. Let me start with this and i guess ill start with you, ezra. How polarized are we . How did we get here . And has the polarization ever been this serious and this dangerous in modern times . Oh, nice easy question for 830 in the morning. Well, thank you all for me. One of the tricky things about talking about polarization is you have to always ask polarized over what . Its a word we tend to use in the singular when it mean many Different Things. So are we more polarized and ever more polarized over what compared to ten years ago, compared to 12 . Say were less polarized economics. If you go back to the period where paul ryan and his budget are dominating the discussion and, you know, you have barack obama and your to have the rise of Bernie Sanders economics is splitting the parties dramatic, right . One party wanted to privatize medicare. The other party wanted to expand universal health insurance. Thats eased a lot. Were less polarized on economics, on on a bunch of Different Things where the possibility of compromise, of unusual bipartisan coalitions has actually gone up. On the other hand, we have fallen down. What i like to think of as maslows hierarchy political needs, were much polarized over whether we should have elections or whether or not rules of the american political system be followed. So weve become, i think, polarized at the level of system more even than the level of policy we used to more or less agree on the system. But there were very deep divisions about the policy. Now the system is what is under under attack. Republicans have become a much more antiracist party, not just the political system, but much more. I mean, theyve always obviously been skeptical of what we get called the mainstream media. I mean, but they are much more intensely skeptical of that of universities. Theyve turned more on business. You can see ron desantis going going to war with disney. Thats not the kind of thing you saw from the Republican Party 15 or 20 years ago. The Democratic Partys become even more of a pro system party. It has become sort of more establishment orient did more frankly connected to business. It used to be. And so in a way, yes, i think we are much more polarized. We are more polarized fundamentally, but not more polarized in every respect. In some ways, its a less policy oriented debate right now, more of a debate over what kind of country and what kind of system were going to be in. Yeah, i would i would say, though, that the reason why kind of polarization feels more dangerous and also feels different to a lot of people, probably this room is that its its its its about something much more existential know an argument over how high taxes should be. I mean people feel very strongly about it some people think its know the most important issue in america you know its crucial to their businesses, but its not about their identity or the definition of who they are and who the nation is. Whereas arguments over nature of democracy and you know who won the election 2020 and is you know, is there an elaborate Conspiracy Theory about it . These are really existent questions that reach to the the heart of what it means to be american. And thats why kinds of arguments are so much harder to solve. Mean when you have a when you disagree about taxes, you can get everybody in a room and you can have an argument about taxes. Maybe its a bitter argument, but people probably wont each other at the end of it. If you disagree about what america is and you get everybody in a room and argue about that, you could have people killing each other and thats actually that insight even comes from, you know, when you a of years ago i wrote something where i went and spoke to people had worked in postconflict you know after civil wars. And i also in particular i talked to somebody whod worked in northern ireland, you know, when they were when they finished the sort of formal Northern Irish peace process, then there was an attempt to get communities to reconcile in northern ireland, where there had been a lot of violence. You know, people literally lived different sides of walls. You know, how do you bring people like that together . And one of the things they tried to do is they tried to bring people together again to talk about should the road be and what kind of bridges should we build and should we have a, you know, Youth Community center in, you know, on this street or on that street . And who should be in charge of building it . And again, those can be controversial things. You know, nobody wants the bridge going by their house or they want the road to be somewhere else and they can be angry at it. But theyre unlikely to murder each other. Whereas if you have people arguing over is this state, you know, protestant or is the state catholic, you know, or it british or is it irish people will kill each other. And so the reason why are polarization feel so bad now is that is that from policy differences, you know, differences about, you know, money and maybe money, maybe property, maybe. Social issues. Weve moved onto these existential differences. And thats much more bitter and angry. Yeah, thats very interesting because if you think back to the Obama Administration and take your example of taxes, you know, the deep disagreement about what to do and Mitch Mcconnell and obama, biden was negotiating the deal actually came to a place in the middle where for a Certain Group of people, the tax cuts were extended. For other groups of people, they werent. There was extra Unemployment Compensation for folks who were out of work. Those arent existential questions. They may be very important. Peoples lives are not existential. I think the fact the what youre citing is raises a whole host of questions. Im going to start with with this to what extent does race and then the alienate asian of so Many Americans in face of vast cultural and demographic change and the loss of Civic Education drive this kind of systemic, polarized nation that youre talking about. So let me take this in a couple of pieces. Im not a believer that the loss of Civic Education is a big player. I think thats something people always want to hear, that if we just had better Civic Education classes, we could prevent this from happening. Dont buy it. When i think of what i didnt talk about enough in why polarized which comes out in 2020 and which you should all buy and does in every other way. Explain our current sales right now right. That book does talk a lot about racial polarization talked a lot about the polarization driven by high immigration numbers, talked a lot about the polarization driven by changing religion. And i think something that is crucial inextricably from the current moment is, i mean, each of these measures weve seen society changing a rapid rate, right . We are on to become a majority minority country. People argue about what that means. But the fact that we will not have the kind of stable demographic power sitting with white americans we have for the entirety of American History has destabilized american politics, right . I think it is for the better, but it is nevertheless destabilizing. I think people underestimate how big of a player religion is here. There is no donald trump. There is no trump without his unbelievably intense support among evangelical christians. And the fact of the matter is that if look at the lines for when were become going to become a majority minority country racially, which gets a lot of attention, its very similar for religion. When do protestants no longer have a protestant . Christians no longer have a majority in this country . Same chart, you know, it happens around 2040. The Democratic Party is itself now the most popular religious answer in it is no organized religion. Democratic party has become a i dont want to call it a Secular Coalition and because many people are spiritual, but it is nevertheless a nonreligious coalition way it used to be. But to the question were asking a second ago, one of the big surprises of the past four years has been slight, but nevertheless real drop what we would call racial polarization. The reason joe biden wins in 2020 is not that what donald trump does between 2016 and 2020 alienates him. Even more from black and hispanic voters. He wins more black and hispanic voters. What happened is he alienated itself from somewhat from some number of voters. And they went to joe biden. So weirdly, the 2020 election sees a slight slide, but nevertheless meaningful drop in racial polarization. What changes is educational . And i dont i think educational polarization is tricky because its not just education. Its tracking some referent of what we would call, in my opinion class, some referent of what means to be on the inside of American Life and not life, some referent of what it means to be on the inside of america and momentum on the inside of prosperity on the outside of it. But trump begins winning. The Republican Party begins winning. Larger numbers, noncollege white people. Thats been happening for a long time and i think is driven by race or was for quite some time, but also back black americans, also hispanic americans and the Democratic Party is Winning College educated americans in numbers it has never seen before. The reason holds on the way it does in 2022 is it wins College Educated americans. And so i do think one of the pieces of polarization that often gets missed is this kind of class polarization, not simply a money polarization, not material. Democrats win, voters making less than 100,000, even. But there is something whatever is getting picked up around education that has begun to flip that the Democratic Party that used to win was always called the party of the working class. Right. That that won noncollege voters. It doesnt win them anymore the Republican Party does and that helps explain in i think a lot of how our politics look the fact the Democratic Party as a piece i published today in the times talks about is sort of simultaneously a party where some factions of it want great change, but its also a party arguing for stability, arguing that actually americas kind of already great. We dont want to change it too much. We dont want to burn too much down and. There are things that the Republican Party is doing. It has adopted the dynamic of donald trump, the kind of wwe dynamic donald trump that is sending cultural signals to the Democratic Party doesnt even understand how to send or even really how to anymore. So i think that this dimension of class polarization, the ins and outs, rural city, this has become very, very, very important. And weve lost language for talking about it. But it is a kind of polarization growing fastest in our elections is its actually a question for you. I mean, is it also what were seeing a revolt against meritocracy or the idea of it, you know, you know, a lot of things in america up until pretty recently were decided not really by meritocracy but by inheritance. You know you you know, there was a kind of, you know protestant elite on the east coast and kids went to andover and yale and, you know, everybody kind of accepted that. And, you know, if youre from the midwest, you didnt really think about andover and yale and also you didnt really care about andover at yale. You know, you had your own university of michigan or you had your own, you know, Farming Community and was really i mean, theres almost a way in which the expansion of an im just thinking out loud im not saying this is necessarily true. You know, the the the the university is opening up to more people, allowing people from over the country to apply, which is obviously a good thing. Also created the feeling changed little bit the nature of who is the elite or who are the leaders in the and it made them feel like, you know, it wasnt of course inheritance Still Matters and, you know, your family Still Matters, but theres also a sense that people have that we deserve to be here, you know, not just because daddy owned, you know, a bank, but because i worked hard and i did really well in my sats. And therefore, i deserve to be whatever it is that i am. And it meant that people who didnt get into that stream felt, they were, you know, lesser right. They couldnt compete or they didnt have good assets and they didnt get in. And i dont think this explains everything, but there is a theres a way in which the the nature the sort of socalled ruling class or what is perceived to be the ruling class chain edged, it became much more pleased with and certain that it deserved something. And also the opposition to it, the resentment it grew, you know and it were people 100 years ago really resentful of ivy league universities. But i dont i dont think so. I mean, i you know, i dont i dont remember the the sort of hatred and dislike of them being so focused and being so much a part of the news every day. And i went to one and i dont remember worrying about whether stuff i did. There are things that were happening. There were to show up the next day on the cover of newspapers, but now they do. I have a a child who also went to one. And he said, you know, the special thing about an ivy league university, is that something there and you know, the next day its in the New York Times and somehow that dynamic began to play inside american. And i wonder if thats not a close to what youre saying. Its its an interesting question. I mean, the hard thing here and this really is what my book is about is that there is so many feedback loops happening simultaneously that unwinding them is difficult. So so heres and so heres like another cut it that i think the rule the what gets called the ruling class i thought is so funny the atlantic had a piece where and works and where my wife works there was like the ruling class is giving up on marriage. Im like the atlantic is a ruling class but but whatever the ruling class had more power it lost power i actually think in a lot of these things what happened is a stability of a power structure broke. And when that breaks, its very destabilizing. Im not saying its better when it did, but this of politics is, you know, much better than i. The trumpist politics is populist, right . Politics. Its very old. It is very old. It shows up again and again and again and again through history. It shows up in all kinds of different countries, going to say its international, its not. Its international. The thing was that the structure in american politics was capable of suppressing this dimension of politics a very long time. So a political scientist sometimes you this chart and these are based on big surveys, but it basically shows that if you look at where voters are there are always this huge number of voters clustered in socially conservative, economically liberal, the socially conservative, economically liberal quadrant. Right. Not exactly liberal, but basically wants a social welfare state for them. Right. Government hands off my medicare. But dont give it to the undesirables, but also does not want things changing in the culture too much. But that sort of politics was not. Wellrepresented and when it tried to emerge, it would be squashed down pat in the republican primaries. Ross perot running as an independent. And this was a time when parties and bob would know this history much better than than i would. There was a time when parties i mean, they had a lot more power at their conventions, parties, a lot more power to structure primary. They had a lot more power to structure. Who came up. They controlled more of the money. They controlled of the information. And that power the ruling class somehow becomes most visible when it becomes weakest because when it becomes weakest, it cant actually stop challenges in the way it could before. So that to me is one dimension of this. A lot of the cracks in the system become more legible. And then you begin talking a lot about the ruling class. But the Political Parties are not more powerful than they were in 199