Transcripts For CSPAN3 Lectures 20240703

Section, this is one of the the three movements that were spending a lot of time on. The reason that i like to end with the Branch Davidians and to end with this particular or tex to talk about them is because it seems to really bring together a lot of the big themes that weve been talking over the course of the quarter. So on the one hand, we are finishing up our conversation about the Branch Davidians, but on the other hand, were using the entire course as a text to lift up these these points. So here is the agenda for today. And we spent some time about the cult perspective, which really is the anti cold perspective and then apply that and about how that shaped the events that took place in waco with the Branch Davidians in 1993. And then think through some of the consequences and implications of what happened there and then of of the way that the cult has been applied in context and and others. So so thats thats roughly the the agenda for today. I want to start out since this is sort of reflecting back on the course to one of our first discussion is when we were talking about what the word cult means. Right. And you actually wrote definitions of that. So lets kind of refresh our memories and think about what are the popular connotations of the word cult that operate our culture. Now, when when say the word cult or we hear the word cult, what are the things that immediately jumped to mind . Just shot them out. Small, exclusive, exclusive if we what else . Unorthodox, fanatical, fanatical devotion. Now were getting going. What else . Charismatic. Charismatic leader whos in seclusion . Controlling, controlling maybe violent, violent or brainwashing . Okay. Yeah. Lots of really good happy, positive thoughts that makes everyone want to be a part of a cult, right . I mean, so this this is the sort of dominant popular framework, the common framework that when we hear the word cult, these are sorts of things that we think and what we want to do today is think a little bit about why is the case and what are the. Of that sort of thinking of the word cult. And this, of course, has a long history in religion in the United States. And even before that. So even though we have been focusing in the last few weeks, particularly on the way that word has function in relationship to mid to late 20th century movements like the peoples temple, like silent theology, like the Branch Davidians. So that word has a longer in the United States its it up in newspapers here in california in the late 19 century and certainly those connotations those ideas go way back the history of religion in the United States. So ive thrown up here to refresh our memory the that weve looked at over the course of this quarter and where i thinking about those terms that we just shouted out where have we seen that sort of thinking and how have we seen that sort of thinking applied to some of the groups that we have looked at quarter. Can you think of any examples of sort of those negative descriptions or impressions, these groups . Yeah. Charismatic leader or founder, a charismatic leader of the movement where like what what movements have we seen that in that Scientology Movement movement. Long basically sort of, yeah, yeah. So that we we see this and we have certainly our conversations of these religious movements have we around the leaders and their central that so that sort of without necessarily them in a negative light the the bigger than kind of role of these leaders is yeah having definitely casting it in a negative then with the peoples temple and i think we spoke of violence with the murder of ryan isolation in guyana and just the whole mess suicide part. Yeah yeah. So a in a lot of ways the peoples or what happens in guyana in jonestown is becomes the epitome of of these characteristics of what a cult is. And a little bit later, i want to come back and think about how that plays out in relationship to the Branch Davidians. Can you think of other sort of negative views about these groups that have emerged or the sorts of things that theyre doing . Yeah, the argument can be made in scientology in kind of the aspect i dont like not using word brainwashing, but similar to it in the sense of, of like reshaping the way youre thinking to fit a certain like way maybe, not reshaping, but believing in a certain way of thinking or ideas that along with a lot of scientologys mission. Yeah. So some modifying ways thinking is central to to the auditing in scientology and thats sometimes cast in this language of brainwash teaching. Right. And another thing about cults that often comes up. I didnt happen to come up in our quick brainstorming today, but is the relationship to money and we talked about how scientology theres a lot of skepticism criticism about how it comes as a fee for service sort organization. Right. What those early 19th century groups mormonism oh night is what were of the concerns or criticisms of so for i think a lot of them there was this element of them being so far from what was orthodox christianity in america at time while them were based that but made changes that the rest of the religious community kind of shunned. Okay all right. So theres that unorthodox piece there and what in particular those groups was was unorthodox. I think one of the unique Sexual Practices is amongst a good few of them. Yeah. Yeah. Sexual, Marital Family relationships. Right. So polygamy with mormonism celibacy was shaken and what do we call the Oneida Community right. Complex, right. Where everybody is married to every everybody else. So so sex, marriage, this is another one of these characteristics often associated with the word cult. Okay, we could on for a whole class doing that but just to remind ourselves these sort of connotation about new religious movements go way back in our nation religious history well before the branch and certainly well before even jonestown. Okay, so im lets think little bit more then about when we bring together various connotations of the word cult. What what is the picture that is emerging . What is what is the cult perspective that that word us and at a base level, you know, its a way to other to distance to marginalize people, right . Those people are not us. Those people. Those religions are not normal. Maybe theyre not even really any religion. Right. And again, those are the sorts of accusations that were made of these. Right. All of these groups were accused of being sort of thing. So. A scholar of new religious movements, of the real sort of founders of this field of scholarship defined it call a religion i dont like that thats his definition of the cult of a cult and he says hes only partially facetious when he says that right. You know my religion is a church. Your religion a cult. If i dont like its always bad, isnt it . Right. It always has those negative connotation and in such a way that it kind of focuses like, you know, sort of come up with a good analogy to this. If you if something jumps to mind, let me know. But its like a lens that focuses things so that we only see them in a certain light. So, i dont know, maybe its a certain of sunglasses. Thats a better analogy right. So that its very hard escape those associations and those negative connotations once. That word is in play right . Its very hard to do to get past that. Its so pervasive and its absolute right. Its an either or of word, right theres, theres theres not a middle ground right. Because when were trying to make ourselves feel good about were not like them, how were like the peoples temple, for example in going to do what happened there right. There cannot be a middle ground. There cannot be gray area in between. There needs to be a firm barrier, doesnt there . So we know which side of that line that were on. And another thing that it does i think that weve seen is it homogenize is it simplifies it everything uniform right there is a cult and all cults are the same we know what theyre like charismatic leaders sex money manipulation, brainwashing, mind control right that whole mantra. Its very for us to call that. And so any group that gets labeled a right automatic becomes associated with all those attributes, right . So the absolute worst attributes associated with a group that is identified as a cult then become the attributes of every group for which the name of cult is used and there are a lot, you know, if you were to do a search of newspapers, even just in the 20th century or late 20th century, there would be hundreds or even thousands of groups that at one point or another have been labeled by somebody as a cult without any definition of what that meant. Like an assumption in a newspaper article or a news program or Something Like that, that when we say the word cult, we know what that means, right . So so it is this powerful thing that assumes, you know, so so a cult the language of cult commands and ices and makes uniform all the groups being defined as a cult. But the opposite is is well write the word cult depends on a comparison to the normal the not cult right. And so it often assumes that, you know, this homogenous, unified norm or religion over and against which a cult is right so in some its doing the same thing on on both sides and it you know when we we did our definitions have cult you remember that in the first week right we have 26 students and we had probably 35 different definitions of cult just in one day. Right. So theres actually when you start pressing people, not always strong agreement on or there is intentional vagueness of it. Right. Its hard and people are reluctant to pin down exactly what they mean when. They use the word cult. And most of all, i think a cult label, what it does is it makes us lazy in analysis. Right, because what it says is, you know, everything that you need to know about this group or this person, right back to that list of things that weve ticked off. And so you dont need to make effort to humanize the people who belong to a group. You dont need to make the effort to figure out what do they actually believe, how do they actually behave who are they as fellow human right, the word cult puts up that hard and fast barrier that stops us from crossing that line. And so that becomes a problem and sort of a challenge to study of religion, right . Because thats not the way we do religion. Right. Thats thats not where we want to stop. Thats. What were about doing in studies and looking at religious history. So i want to pull couple of lines from the section that we read from taber and gallagher in the waco book where theyre really doing examination of, the Branch Davidians as a case study of the word cult. They describe the word as not descriptive. Right. So that that that fits that summary thing, that it reveals as much about outside observers as it does to the movement described. Right. So that when someone uses the word cult theyre actually revealing more about themselves and how they think about things than they are the group theyre describing and how it functions in how it thinks about things and. So they conclude that the of the word cult is a choice of perspective if and a description of fact. But we dont think about that that way. Right. I think in Popular Culture there is an assumption that in fact we all know what the word cult means and that it is descriptive and that it it is helpful. Okay. So thats thats the cult. Now, the dominant of that or the adoption of that use of the word and those sorts of meanings of the word cult is what the anti Cult Movement does, right . So basically the anti Cult Movement would really emerges in the early 1970s and goes through the midtolate. 1990s is a somewhat loose of folks who are basically presenting this cult perspective as the way to understand what weve been calling new religious. So in some ways, when say the anti cult perspective and the culprits active, im talking about the same thing the the anti Cult Movement is sort of leveraging or weaponizing using that that that sort of language. And they have been quite in doing that right in making view of cults the dominant perspective. One of the reasons that we all share is because of the success of the anti movement, which they will describe as this pervasive destroy dangerous influence. Hence that is a threat to all of american society. And so it needs to be with and it needs to be stopped it. Now, this a movement emerges in Southern California in the 1970s by some parents who children whose children joined some of these new religious movements emerging in the sixties and seventies and were distressed that their their college age and young Adult Children were dropping out of college, that they were leaving their sort of successful careers, nurses and businesspeople and teachers and so forth, to go live on a commune under a charismatic leader with, alternative marriage and sexual and family relationships. And this is not what their were supposed to do right . Like good middle class, white. And so they began to cooperate and find ways to get Adult Children out of groups. And that often involves literally kidnaping or removing them against them. There will and trying to convince them leave the group in a process that they called deprogramming right. But this this is the the origins of the movement that will come to so what happens in in the Branch Davidians. So for of us in california it a home grown movement right as parent groups began to connect each other they began to be a little bit more organized and, to offer programs, Educational Programs to schools, colleges, University Law enforcement agencies, parent to to get the message about how dangerous cults were right and notice how using that language as this uniform homogenizing things theyre not saying were talking about how dangerous the x y, z movements are just that cults are right. So you see that that uniformity thing. They start establish themselves as a resource, as experts on the topic if you want to know about cults, contact us and we will give you information about this dangerous trend taking place in the United States. They became supporters and Referral Services for people did that deprogramming that sort of kidnaping and removing folks and they got to the point where in a couple of moments in time theyre even advocating for legislative heat hearings and for changes in laws that would restrict the ability of the groups that they cults to function none those laws ever passed but there were a of hearings held in in various states around the country so. So thats thats what theyre doing. Now it turns out the anticult is not very big relative to the size of the nation. Right. Its mostly made of family members of people were in these sorts of groups and of people who had been a part of them and left me. Those are the two groups of people that were really opposed to two cults. And so they really form the core of the cult in anticult network and much like the word cult does, right . Theyre using language to evoke passion and emotion rather than fact in an object to to whip up concern about them and central to this rhetoric of, the antiCult Movement and the cult language suggests, is this notion of brainwashing and mind control. Right. That is so, if youre a parent, how do you explain that . All your efforts to provide for your children and give them a good education in every opportunity, how come then they left all that and ran off and joined one of these groups . Right. So what brainwashing does one of these groups whose beliefs and practices are just incomprehensible . Would everyone, anyone join that right and brainwashing and mind control becomes the explanatory mechanism for that . Well, they couldnt help it. They were poor, helpless victims to the mind control and brainwashing of the charismatic leader. And thats why they joined so so mind control and brainwash teaching become this way to explain how these groups recruit members and how they retain them right and notice then what that does is that alleviates blame or responsibility for the families and for the individuals who join right because they were acted by this of irresistible power and the use of mind control control of of of these religious. Now that raises, doesnt it, because very people actually joined these sorts of movements. So if everybody is vulnerable right as these Movement Groups suggest, did you know these parents would . Right. No happened to me. It can happen to you. Anyone is vulnerable to this. But if thats true why did so few people actually join . And why did most people who end up leaving entirely their own right . So theres this disconnect between that explanation and what happens, but it is worth noting that despite the number of people who actually have a personal experience with one of these new religious movements, either themselves or an immediate family member, the thinking and the movement actually has a pretty sizable influence. Right, because we all know what a cult is. Right. And thats a large part, not exclusively, but the work of the antiCult Movement to spread and and promulgate this notion of what a cult and the danger that they present. Okay. Another way. The anticult frames what it means is they try to play off of a sort of, you know god nation and apple kind of what are understood be, you know, sort of fundamental american values, right. So one of those is freedom. So the anticult perspective says that cults deny peoples because of that mind control brainwashing thing. Right. Those people who are supposedly affected by that are being denied their freedom to choose, which is why you have to deprogram them and forcibly them so that they can have their freedom and choose to leave the movement. Many did not. A lot of people who were deprogrammed actually escaped and went right back. The community that they were a part. But so there is this debate about freedom, right . Those who oppose the antiCult Movement say youre ones who are denying freedom, saying people shouldnt explore these opportunities people shouldnt be free to decide them. The antiCult Movement on the other side is saying no. These sorts of practices, supposed practices, deny individuals their freedom. So we see lots of examples how the same idea freedom is understood and completely ways by this and families are another thing right . Cults. Cults as theyre often called are a threat to families. Right. Because often people who these groups, much like those who went to the United Community or to the shakers would leave their families. They would, you know terminate typical family relationships whether parent and child, spouse, siblings and the new religious movement become their new family in place of their biological family. Right. So this is another reason that the anticult sort of was able to protect these groups as a particular threat, particularly with this long standing notion in u. S. History that the family is sort of the core or social unit of the entire nation in a strong nation requires strong families. They also talk about cults as being a threat to the nation. Many of these groups that they called cults sort of emerged in the context of antiwar movement. And even here in Southern California, the idea is they had sort of a peace loving tilt to them. They had sort of an economic socialism or communism sort of orientation, not not in a political sense, but they shared resources they were communes again, like a lot of those 19th century groups that that we looked at. But in the context, the cold war and, the evil communists in china, in the soviet union, who were at and not capitalist. Right. Some of these groups seem like they acted more like that than they did american values. And we saw that in jonestown. Right. I mean, jim jones and the peoples temple he in greece increasingly advocates this socialist, even communist perspective and talks about the possibility, perhaps even of relocating to the soviet union. Okay. The anti Cult Movement picks up on the charismatic leader, but that the leaders are not only charismatic but theyre theyre crazy theyre psychologically unstable and this makes them dangerous and if they can combine sin mind control brainwashing and their in the way that they lead manipulate people. This is obviously a big danger that we should be worried about, afraid of and so they lift up this sort of triad of characteristics, especially the crazy leader the brainwashed members and the tendency towards violence, right initial that tendency towards violence. The manson family. Here in california. Is the first example of that. But then in 1978, with the tragedy of the peoples temple in jonestown down and the mass murder suicide there, this becomes another of how cults are violent right. And remember that homogenizing the uniformity kind of thing were the characteristic of one Group Becomes applied to. All right jonestown particular reinforces that notion of being dangerous in and violent the antiCult Movement. I creates a whole sort network of professionals the programmers one group. Its not really a profession that you train for its just sort of a selfappointed. But there were a set, a handful academics of lawyers, of doctors who all sort of confirm this mind control in brainwashing framework and the craziness of it was a very small set of academics, physicians and attorneys and show up over and over. But they were constantly invoked and relied upon by the antiCult Movement to reinforce these notions of crazy leaders and brainwash members. Okay, im. So thats a very extreme tended sort of reflection on the word cult in the way the anti network leverages it. And so let me turn back to you and, reflecting back on our early conversations and, what was going on and over and again that popular conception of cult, are there alternative definitions that we might think about that dont necessarily follow that path . Are there any other ways that cults might be thought of insight or outside of Popular Culture. Any start in bainbridge . Yeah, they thinking that going to be thought of as like the early of religion. Yeah yeah great so they could be thought of as the early stages of religion right because thats thats the first meaning of the word cult right. It, it was it meant worship. Thats thats a judgmental or value laden term, right . Its just a descriptor of something. Right . So thats thats one way thats sort of a neutral way to think about. Can you can you think of others or others that we have encountered . Yeah, thats imported. Or the oc a that is imported or innovative nature. Where are we getting that . Where we learn about that. Yeah. Rodney stark in williamson bainbridge, a sociologist religion. Right. Whos we studied and its not perfect, but but they try to frame it in a way that has often been used to describe and neutral weight their new religious movements, their new so in in that way every religion starts as cult because at one point it was new and its just a way to describe right. And so in in in this sociological perspective right, they are defining a cult, one kind of new religious, where the ideas or the practices are either entirely new or, they are new to the context where they take place. Right. And then they mention sect, another type of new movement. And thats different from a cult because its a breakaway. It breaks away from an existing tradition in an effort to try to reform that. So so here we have in the early seventies a sociologist offers an alternate understandings of what a cult might be. All right question for you. How come we academics have not been successful in winning the battle over the meaning of the word cult . Why why do you why is it so hard to overcome challenge the the broad descriptions that so characterize Popular Culture. Yeah yeah, i think its very much you can you get the toothpaste back in it to counter society has viewed cults as negative for so long and then academics and kind of to find it in at least to the layperson sort of dry perspectives so thats dry language. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, these are not terms that we normally use, right academics arent exactly charismatic leaders. Right. And charismatic. Yeah. But, but the toothpaste is a great example. Right . I mean, the cat out of the bag, the camels nose under the tent, right its just you cant undo this right. And so in some ways, were were stuck with what we have. And that begs question of what to do. But we can circle back around to that at end. But it is it is the reality that that live with and so one of the things of course that some academics scholars of religion have done is to propose a new term right rather than trying to redeem the word cult itself and say, no, it doesnt really mean that if you dig down deep, it means this is to say lets give a whole new term and so weve encountered and you hear me using quite a bit the term new religious movement right which really leans towards that new understanding of it but as of yet at least doesnt carry all the negative connotations that the word cult does. Okay. All right. Well, why i you know, thinking about why is it that it doesnt work just a few images, you know in in Popular Culture in in in magazines newspapers in tv drama right this notion of a brainwashing and mind control continues to come up over, over and over. Right. Almost every, you know, procedural drama, legal series on television has at least one episode about who succumbs to a charismatic leader in their mind, control. It reinforces this notion that its that its a real thing and and this sense i love this image its an editorial cartoon from the late seventies 1976. And you know that almost the notion that there is this dangerous, pervasive threat that cults and its the same you no threat that say drugs are right but and notice whats threatened right. Its the family right concerned about family are what drives a lot of this but theyre also what sort of contributes to ultimate structural weakness of the antiCult Movement is that it really only in an organizational sense is giving money volunteer with time spreading word only really draws in people who have directly been affected by this and that is a infinitesimally small percentage of the nation so there there is this this tension between the rhetoric and what what really happens but as we head in now towards. Focusing on jonestown or sorry of the Branch Davidians and we want to think about how. These ideas of what cult is play out right and how important that group that we talked about just before this, the peoples temple in jonestown, shapes that perspective. Right . The antiCult Movement was sort of waning as we got into the late 1970s, partly because of these numbers. The groups that had seemed so threatening in the early 1970s seem less so. And then jonestown happened, you know, we just passed the anniversary of it last week. It occurred in 1978. So whats that . 45 years ago and suddenly there was horrific tragedy with over 900 people dead and the anticult people said, see, we told you theyre dangerous. Those groups, theyre violent cult groups, their leaders can get followers to do whatever the leader wants, no matter how crazy it seems right. And so you get this revival, this cult scare in, this cult fear. And from that moment on, any time someone uses the word cult, its its shorthand for what happened at jonestown. So by extension, weve been talking about then any group that has that label is in theory going to do what the what happened at jonestown and. So that is really the ethos, the framework of what is going on when we get to the Branch Davidians in 1993, right. That thats the prevailing peace there. All right. So time for me to rest voice for a minute and ask you to think about, which is what i ask you to reflect on for today in particularly how do we see this under standing of the word cult operating in the events that happened in waco with the branch in 1993. Another anniversary that weve just passed. I think theres one thing i was thinking about if waco right. Like the the atf comes the waco gas drives tanks to the walls. And i was thinking imagine if that happened at a church or synagogue or a mosque instead, like what the reaction to that would be. And like whatever the worlds reaction to that would be and would be such a massive probably response, an infringement on like First Amendment rights and your freedom of speech. But here its kind of like silence and like almost seems like, okay because they were labeled and deemed as a cult and dangerous. Right. It doesnt happen anywhere else, any other. Like if it did, it would be a huge massive response. But here its more deemed as like acceptable just because they were labeled as a cult. Yeah, that thats a great example that that the, the lives of people who are in cults arent value the same as other lives. Right. Its okay that in the end it seems there was, you know, a sense that if you label this group a cult, people would be on board with the action that you took. And when you look at the media responses and, you know, interviews on tv and college to radio shows during this 51 day standoff, there was a lot of that sort of sentiment, you know, go in there crazy. It doesnt matter. Deserve it. They earned it. It doesnt matter. Right. But look, these are the people who were in there, right . These are real beings. Are those lives that are worth than the lives in a church or synagogue or mosque. Right. But thats one of the things that the word cult and it very was operating there right. That that it sort of was at least tacit approval both for the initial serving of that warrant february 28th over gun violations with 76 armed people and cattle trucks full of, you know, full combat and riot gear. And then for the april. 19th and when the fbi went in in said that they were getting folks out and that that shaped all of that right. And in fact, the word cult appears right in the affidavit is initially submitted by the atf, right to to to a magistrate to a judge to get the warrant to go in. And they kept using the word cult as if somehow that word was relevant to a warrant about guns violations. Right. But it shows the power of that. Did it it sort of justify that. Okay. How else might we see the word cult in what is going on there was like i was thinking more of like the part. Right. Okay. Because like at least with the fbi negotiate, they kind of labeled it or dismissed it as like babble or whatever nonsense. And that definitely could have influenced by their notion of cold, their thinking, theyre crazy and whatnot. Yeah. So say a little bit more like how would that lead to the actual question then . Or they would just, they would have notion that they couldnt really like talk to him or like reason them because of, like, because they thought they were a cult. Right . So if like, if you try to negotiate with someone without reason or because you think theyre a cult, then its obviously not going to work. Yeah. Yeah. So youve got this crazy guy youre talking to, but you dont actually have to listen to what hes because, you know, hes crazy. Thats all you need to know. So that he says, is irrelevant to the goal. Right. And the fbi goal is to get the people out right during you know, after the the standoff that happens in the initial raid on february 28, that that next 51 days from the fbi perspective were all about getting the people inside out. And therefore, what koresh really didnt matter. He was just crazy. Right. And even sort of the experts they brought in to evaluate him understood his language in the same way. Right. That was just crazy bible babble. Now, what was it . What was it that he doing . What do we know about what koresh was talking about about. Do you remember what what was he focused on in this. Yeah. Book of revelations, i believe, like all of his all of his language was from that. Yeah. He was focused on the book of revelation. Right . He was interpreting a very small section of, the book of revelation. And that is the negotiators and the psychiatrist and psychologist called bible babble. Yeah. Yeah. And it just closed down the whole opportunity for to see the three experts as a viable solution say what what closed it like the so cold leads to this term bible bible circulating amongst the fbi and the media and that almost immediately down all effective avenues of using those people to reach him right. Yeah they and they didnt need who knew what that bible was about right because because they were dealing with a crazy man not not a bible scholar. Right. He was like the very. Yeah yeah. Just wanted to be heard. Right. So, so lets pause this moment then and think about one another piece of antiCult Movement. Perspect did. Is that the rise in the emergence of cults is a new and increasingly dangerous. Right that theres something about the late 20th century that has made this made these groups more prolific, more dangerous than theyd ever been. Hogwash. There have been new religious as long as there have been people. Earth right there as we have seen this quarter. There have been a host of new religious movements in the United States. Right. And even Branch Davidians. What they were doing was not really new. Right. So, you know, one of the things that weve done all quarter, talk about whats new and whats not new as a way to think critically and compare the groups weve looked at. So what is not new about the Branch Davidians . What have we seen before in the Branch Davidians . I think the main thing that stands is david koresh is out of pretty much interpreting search results like Martin Luther and the 16th century. Sold a script to a right. Yeah its about as far back as you know. Yeah. All right. My work here is done. Yeah, yeah. We have seen this notion going at least all the way back to Martin Luther in the reformation of people interpreting for themselves to see what it means right. And what in particular is koresh trying to out in his of scripture what is he curious about . What is he trying to to discover here . Whether the apocalypse happening, the fifth seal right yeah hes trying figure out is this the end of the world . Right. In the book of revelation it talks about seven seals. And once all those seals opened, that is the apocalypse in the end of the world. But the fifth seal is really the cusp of it happening and. David koresh is trying to figure out if thats where we are and thats exactly what he was doing when that initial raid took place. Right and if you recall, when looked at that text in the book of revelation says, when the fifth seal is opened right, the destruction of the world, a bunch of people are killed for their beliefs right. Branch davidians were killed for belonging to that group on february 28th that lined up pretty well, right . The koresh. Sure, because it didnt quite happen the way he expected. So he was trying to figure out if, in fact this was the sign that, it was the end of the world. All right. How have we seen groups looking and wondering about the end the world before this quarter. Yeah. Where else have we seen that . What other groups were interested in thinking about trying to figure out the end of the world . The advent is probably like the first. So we looked at the multiple days later, so. So we we have seen 78 adventists right. Which actually the Branch Davidians are a sect, right. A a breakaway from Seventh Day Adventists. Right. So theyre, theyre not new in any sense of the word, right . I mean, this, this comes out of a longstanding american denomination in, the Seventh Day Adventists. What are other groups about the end of the world that weve seen . Weve also seen the bill of rights, their leader, when he was especially with the way. Yeah so the miller writes of the 1840s where the first big group that we saw that was really focused on this belief that the end of the world was near and trying to figure out what that the Seventh Day Adventist actually emerge out of a group of miller ites any other groups that have focused on the end of the world. A lot of these things yeah in actually you know think we could go back to that list and in some sense almost every group in American Religion has in some way or another looked towards a end to the world going on jehovahs witnesses, another group right that said a lot of of whats going on shakers in o night as were engaging in their behavior help bring about the millennium so the point being here maybe im hitting a little bit too hard and being pedantic. Right. But the Branch Davidians did not fit this framework of a new in super dangerous group that hasnt seen before. Right. Virtually that the Branch Davidians had. Weve already seen in american religious history whether its groups that they derive from like bill of rights and Seventh Day Adventists or other millennial groups like mormons and shakers in. A nighties. All right. So thats just a sort of another framing here to to challenge the the anticult perspective. Okay. Other ways that you have reflected that court shapes the events that happened at waco waco. Yeah, i think that the idea really contributed to the publics of the Branch Davidians which which you know the government and the federal Law Enforcement enforcement agencies that were involved in like what they believe about the group because the media was kind of portraying them as a whole and in a very negative way which kind of shaped the perception of the public. Okay. So the media plays a really big role. Why do you think that is the case why . Why . I mean, so theyre theyre really good at promulgating this anticult perspective or this cult perspective, right. Why or how they come to have that role, do you think . I think theres certainly some symbolism tracing all the way back to jonestown as well. Like if we about the people who were leaders in the response 1993, a lot of those people were like early in their careers when jonestown. So they kind of looked at others like. This is a model on what on what not to do and even if it wasnt necessarily that explicit, their minds, it was certainly kind of like seared their memory and then like later exposure, it kind of just builds sort of like a confirmation bias throughout their career. And then thats kind of where it culminated. Yeah. Yeah. No, thats a great point. Particularly about the confirmation bias, because thats thats one of the way stereotype types work isnt that we we get these stereotypes and then it it functions like that focusing lens or something and its you tend to see the things that reinforce and to ignore the things that dont. And so thats at work. We see the jonestown piece looming over there right . Newspaper and media in general love an atrocity tale, a morality tale. I mean, this is good news, right . But the flip side of, that is the anticult people, right. What actually provokes a lot of this action in waco is that some anticult members remember mark bray, old, who had been a former, that one type of of of anti cult advocate is former member and then some of the other anticult groups here. Right. They. They want to get after the branch for various reasons. And so they rely on the media. Right. They go to the media and say you want look into whats happening here. Right . So the antiCult Movement is very good at feeding the media. That perspective, the media then offers that government, it just becomes this reinforcing circle here right. And and information sort of the same information is used and reported and over again. Right. That article in the tribune actually borrowed very heavily from a i think it was an inside edition australia expose, a piece that mark bray all had really, you know, agitated for there. And so you get this cycle now who are they not talking to . Who who is the media not talking to in in understanding cults and happens at yeah theyre not talking to the people that are actually inside there right because this is another thing that cult does right it it assumes that knowledge and you dont have to talk to those people because you already know everything you need to know and theyre brainwashed or theyre crazy. So theyre really a reliable source, um, to go on right. And the same thing with religious studies, scholars, scholars for that bible babble, theyre crazy. Theyre mind inside. So the perspective, what that religion is about is not relevant to to, to whats going on. Okay, so, so the media once again, is, is very important here. All right. So we get. Right in this cult anticult perspective is, the prevailing dynamic. And in the end right as we talked about it provides the rationale for the ultimate destruction, destruction, the compound there in waco right, when the fbi decides to go in because koresh was crazy in bible babble and Holding People against their will, which they werent right. Fbi thought they were hostages, but they in there waiting for the end of the world right so that nothing was going to change. Right. And then added to that, do you remember there were reports of child abuse. Right. And that that really fueled the ultimate decision to go turns out to depart the Texas Department of Child Welfare services or whatever the proper name for that agency, texas had not found sufficient information for that. But again, this is the way that the word cult plays in. Right. It evokes those sorts of concerns, too. So if there was a cult, it was not hard to believe that that sort of thing might go on. And so the fbi went in on april 19th, 76, Branch Davidians, including over 20 children. In in the fires that resulted in think 11 people survived came out alive. Now the other piece. That informed this in this quote language, again, is the specter of jonestown over whats going on right. And because of that, to call it a cult was to know what was going to happen in the end. People were going to die. Right. And it became a selffulfilling prophecy didnt because they did. The question is, did they have to taper . And gallagher make the claim that the use of the cult is responsible for the deaths that happened at waco . What do you think of. Was the use of the word cult so powerful that it can be held responsible for the deaths that happened at waco. I kind of agree. Goes back what i was saying earlier is if they use a different terminology, if they had called it like a church instead, i think the response there is less violent and think like again, the whole news Media Coverage takes a different spin on everything. And so i think at the end the day like the batf and fbi take a different approach because they are worried about, a kickback, a response. But again, that kind of gives them that protection to do what they want and. Everyone in the media and consumers media is going to be like, okay, they had to do what they had to do because it was a cult. But again, if you view it as a church or something, i think that takes away the violent options that the government like agencies have. Yeah mean if you imagine replacing the word cult with church or synagogue in that affidavit for the original serving there it probably would have made the judge absolutely refused to do it. Yeah. I mean, which is a real compelling example of the power of that word. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Its really not that for the church. I think it was hours long videos koresh and filmed of the children and families inside basically like testimonials like im safe i want to be here i love david koresh and those certainly if it had been a church and not a cult would not have been like blockaded from reaching public eyes in the media and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah so words matter, right . Like language matters. Yeah. I think also that these thats like deemed the part of the followers as kind of brainwashed individual. It made it a lot easier for it to become this like hostage type situation, whereas it might not have actually fit all of this criteria to be hostage situation. But since this kind deemed a cult, he saw jonestown. And clearly people thought that any type of like Government Intervention with these movements would result in mass suicide. So they kind of just went into this knowing what the outcome was going to be. Yeah, yeah. It really does take away from the agency and individuality of the people there. Right . So it again, its this notion of i cant understand why somebody made that choice. So something must be wrong with them right in, in, in that, that distancing. All right. So when we think about the way that jonestown informed what was going on here. I just want to point out right, that that what that was stopped a lot of this of what this movement was about, because in point of fact, the Branch Indians and the peoples temples are very different, arent they . What what are some the ways that the Branch Davidians are different than what the peoples temple was like, what happened at jonestown. Yeah, the book talked about how the Branch Davidians were as isolated, like they were in the real world. They worked outside, went to local schools and attended mainstream it, talked to like music clubs and restaurants. So they werent this isolated group like Jones Jonestown was. And that if authorities known that it could have really shaped the way they went about negotiations, they were so focused on kind of what happened at jonestown, like reflecting that on to the Branch Davidians that they didnt actually explore the reality of their group. Yeah. And even if they had talked to local Law Enforcement. Right, they would have known that there were constant interactions, not the suspicions. And so the federal actually went around the state and local ones, whereas the temple is increasingly withdrawing eventually all the way down to south america and trying to create this isolated in separate community. Good are the ways that you can think of that. The Branch Davidians in in in the peoples are not the same that would undermine that claim. Yeah although keep some on i think like level of armament at waco is a huge difference like stockpile ng weapons illegal or illegal however they were purchased and then over a million rounds of ammo on compound i think its mixed draws a huge line between the two. Okay so this is something that really marks different and different than anything that weve seen before. Right. Which when you combine that with language of cult and crazy and mind control contributed to people feeling nervous about what was going on, even the actual violation was just paperwork, right. What what they were there. You know, jonestown peoples temple had practiced suicide right. In these exercises called White Knights where they had sometimes not known whether or not. It was laced with cyanide. Koresh insisted he suicide was not what they were about. Youre not going. You excuse me. And waco was not anybodys radar before that battle. Chief warrant was served in february, right . I mean, and it never would. It still wouldnt be if it werent for those events where its jonestown was increasingly in conflict with the surrounding community you even koresh is very different than jones he he hes not claiming to be jesus or god, just a guy whos anointed to read the bible in insight for ways. Right. Koreshs working explicitly within the christian framework and contained by the biblical texts in what it says, jim jones moves well beyond that critique. The bible christianity and say its a false religion so. Theres a lot of difference. Between the two right that really break down this notion that what happened at jonestown should be the driving expectation of what would happen in waco. But thats not way it played out, is it . And so this this cult framework, this confidence in the interpretation that that meant that they were going to kill themselves. Right. In fact, motivates government action, that in the end, results the death of over 70 french civilians. Okay. So as we wrap up here, lets lets think a little about the consequences. What happens here in in the immediate aftermath, both in in 1993 and 1994, much like with jonestown, that cult perspective sort of gets a boost, right . Because in the end it was like it happened again, right . Thats what cults do. They are violent. They are destructive, and they need to be stopped. Right. But of course, what that narrative didnt do was press further into comparison between jonestown and the davidians and the way in which they were in fact very different groups. And that that cult stereotype didnt apply at least in in the same of way you, see an uptick in efforts to hold hearings and pass laws to try to restrict cults. Again, not successful largely because people realized thats crossing a line in terms of of of the free exercise of religion, which is sort this foundational principle in the United States. So so bill clinton, who was elected president just just before this happened, the day after the raid in april that ended in death, said that he, janet reno, the attorney general, had offered to submit her resignation because of what happened. And he said theres no way expecting her accepting her resignation. This is my summary of his words in a direct quotation because of a bunch of crazy people committing mass suicide. Right. So even at the very top that anticult perspective was operating in the end the government was cleared in in multiple sets of hearings of any both in 1995 and a series of hearings and then special counsel report that came about 2000 or 2000, one. The government was cleared of wrongdoing, 11 surviving members were in connection with the events at waco all. 11 were acquitted of charges. But i think seven were in fact committed, convicted of other crimes, including weapons violations and volunteer manslaughter. They were given most of the people were given like 40 year sentences. But in 2000, the judge would do their sentences to 15 years. So by six or 27, all of those people were out jail. The Oklahoma City bombing familiar to me that happens the second anniversary of the fbi assault the Branch Davidian compound and the perpetrator of this said it was in direct response to what had happened the Branch Davidians right and so so the consequence of this event are long term and this is the the memorial that now exists in Oklahoma City that opened in 2000 in in memory of that event. Now. It does seem to me in in in conclusion now that this ended up being a turning right because things in the end so wrong in waco because unlike what happened jonestown, it does seem that this could have been prevented, that there were intentional decisions that people made that at least contributed to the likelihood that this would end in a tragedy. And because of that, there was an to exploring other or a wider data set for groups in this situation and that maybe the closed circle of media in anticult in did not provide the fullest picture to humanize and to understand the particularities the individuals that were part of these movements right and so i not long after what happened in waco, the largest anticult organization, the cult awareness network, can in fact went bankrupt, not as a direct of what happened in waco, but there role as the so Solar Authority on cults and able to shape the cult narrative had been seriously compromised as people reflected on what happened there. So there are less organizations an anticult perspective today . But heres the caution right . A lot of those same sentiments exist just translated into a different key. That is that other organizations, religious and not, are still often described lived in the same sort of terms. That attempt to dehumanize that attempt to other to attempt to excuse the need to actually understand the beliefs and particularly the individuals that are part of a community and. So i think the warning still for us that when we hear the word cult, we need raise a red flag and say, what do you mean by that . What are you using word to do and what are the implications and consequences of how word and its use those lines of thinking play out to effect real human so that is my hope for you that in this that its given us the ability to think a little bit more critically about the way that word is used and, the way that new religious movements are part of a long and, ongoing history that have shaped the world that weve lived in so thank you very much. And we will to reflect on those sorts of one more time for a final question