Be here today introducing making it in america by rachel slade i just want to rachel im very excited for this conversation i just want to share that during my own book tour for my book i my book is American Made what happens to people when work disappears and i wanted to wear American Made clothing and i was, i remember standing in the dressing room of nordstroms saying why, cant i find one thing that looks good on me that made in america . And i wondered where all those companies went. So, so thank you for answering my question. So just just to kick us off, can you tell us a little bit about the characters, your main characters, this wonderful couple you follow and their company. What are they all about . And what was what were they trying to create . Just introduce us, bring us into this world. Absolutely so id like to introduce. To the world. Ben whitney waxman, they are a husband and wife team. They are from portland, maine, ere they live in portland, maine, actually, whitney not from maine. Shes she has lived around the world. And when they met they were both at a moment of great ben had spent ten years very high up at the afl cio working pretty closely with rich who unfortunately passed away. But here he was the storied president of the afl, cio, which is which many people know is the large umbrella federation of many unions in the United States representing 12 million workers in. So many industries. But while ben was working with the afl, cio he saw at you chronicled. So in your book just factory after factory closing as they moved operations, either south or down to mexico or even further abroad and that broke. That broke ben. And when he came back to portland, maine, his hometown, he spent a year really just grappling what he had witnessed in america and determined to prove that capitalism and labor could unite, could Work Together and be a force of good and rebuild community tt he had seen in the places industry had left you create good jobs and create Amazing Products and so so he created this company so. Whitney and waxman together built this Company American roots that creates all american sourced apparel. Right . Right. It was its its just extraordinary this how much this company is like a unicorn. Right. Its they they invited a union in, right. Or they they wanted to be union made everything sauce, every thread every button sourced from the United States. This is kind of what, you know, kind of impossible right. Youre i mean, were they were they encouraged in the beginning . I mean, youre sort of you sort of a lot the whole books centers around their struggle. Build this company. That is at they think the United States needs, what they know america needs. Tell us. A little bit about the obstacles that they encountered as they set out to make made clothing that was you know paying a living wage and union union what were their what were their images. So io i followed them from 20. So i followed them over three years. But their story starts in 2015 and the obstacles they faced making apparel are the obstacles. I think that every Company Faces in america, one of the biggest obstacles of is just sourcing, finding company use around the country that provide the materials. As you mentioned, to be able to build their hoodie we are actually the second or third americas, the second or Third Largest producer of cotton in the world, a of that cotton actually goes to china to manufacture wear goods American Goods where where goods are made is made and then sent back United States. So being able to notch into that chain is difficult when. Youre a small mufacturer. They had to find zippers for their hoodies. And it turns out, as far as we know, on one company left in america. Its out in l. A. Thats making zippers. So supply was a big problem, establishing a line that was reliable. And then labor is always difficult. And i just finding people to do the job. There were very few people in, maine, who had the skills that they were looking for. And so they actually had to provide training as well, which is expensive and time consuming. So what they were doing was rebuilding an industry from scratch. You know, massachusetts and maine used to be epicenter of shoe manufacture, touring and apparel, manufacturing but when all of left america and especially this region, after the passage of nafta in 1992, that the workers dispersed as well, by the time ben and whitney were to build their company, they were gone. They had gone to other they were retired. These apparel workers and textile, they really had to rebuild the Knowledge Base from scratch. I think youve talked you talk a lot about addiction. And theres a one part of the book where you say the cutng, the fabric. They knew he struggled with addiction. Or you talk about how some of these young people just didnt know to fix the aging machines these that that were required to make cloth or thread. I is is were there. Wellet me put it this way would this company he survived immigrant labor without without refugees refugees . In my estimation . I mean, is every ste is different. And maine has its own issues. And one of maines biggest issues is that it is the oldest state, the union. So i think i think the median age is around. 50 and they have a great educational system, public educational system. But what tends to happen is that young people rise up through the educational system, then leave and that was that presents a serious problem for employers in maine. Now, ben and whitney founded their company in portland, westbrook, which is right outside portland. So theres actually a very, very large immigrant community in portland. And and, you know, at first when they started their company, like i said, thought they would get former apparel workers had lost their jobs after nafta. But what they found was that the people who were willing do the work, what we new americans, people who had just received their citizenship and many of them, yes, were political refugees escaping very dire conditions in the countries where they came, including the democratic republic of congo and iraq and other places around the world. So they were really eager to find and work hard and build a life in maine. So, i mean, its an interesting that you paint interesting picture of these these workers, some of whom are wearing hijabs and theyre there at these Union Conventions about the importance of American Made stuff and American Made labor just, you know, was that i guess did they face some backlash and you talk a bit about the backlash they faced that was one of the challenges i thought was interesting to tk about the sort of white supremacist website backlash. Yeah. So, i mean, let me just say that apparel in america has almost always been german, driven by immigrant labor. Its oftentimes the first stop for immigrants because the bar is low, its an apprentice ship industry. So people can come in with very little knowledge. They get the Training Need and then they sit down. They start lrning all these different skills. So when you think about it, you know, mills in the United States, especially in our region, start it with irish immigrants, then it then it, it, it moved to using immigrants from europe and italy, other places where there was civil unrest and, political unrest. So we are only seeing then of course, it progresses and progresses the immigrant groups coming in are always changing at thisoment in maine. Its really about people coming africa. But sorry, just wanted to establish that so yes so in. 17 one of their workers was asked to speak. They are members of the united steelworkers and they were to speak at the National Convention of the united steelworrs about you. The Incredible Opportunity that they had because now there was manufacturing mean now they can work at american roots now they could be represent by a union and it was a totally new concept for them to all these things to have from a union. And it was a really, really rousing speech and around that timenited steelworkers also put out their, i believe, quarterly magazine and with a photograph of of the workers of american brits on cover. And she was wearing a hijab and the Company Began getting calls, racist posts, their websites on their social media. There were threats because the perception among some people and im not saying that the people who were doing this were steelworkers members but the perception was that these these people didnt look american and therefore they were somehow american jobs or something else. And as i said before, they were the only people around to do the work in this case. So the reaction among some people was outsized. It was horrifying for the ben and whitney and the people working in the factory. But i have to say that immigrant the immigrant community that they work with, as i said they came from very difficult places, democratic republic, congo is an extremely difficult place iraq became extremely for the people who are now working in the factory and. These are very resilient people because of that. And they had tremendous pride that they were finally in america. They had tremendous pride that they were being represented by a union and that their voices could heard. And they had tremendous pride that they were making things to finally be able to settle down and be safe and take care of their families. And so, in general, when these things happen, theyve seen a lot. Theyve seen a lot. They tend roll with it. And i was there actually when things happened was there on january six when when there was the riot at the capitol and i got to see, you know, reaction of people on the shop when they found out about what was happening. Its a really witness. Yeah, yeah. Theres shock, of course, because its shocking that these things can happen in america. But then you, see, do you see it . Just the result. That we will keep going because they have kept going and a lot of them have seen a lot worse and, you know, for them for for and i dont mean to speak for but both from what i heard speaking to folks there is that freedom for them. Freedom means being safe being in a community where you dont have to worry every single day whether or not your children and your spouse will come. Thats freedom for them. Yeah. Yeah. You you i mean, the heart of the book is really this quest to make American Company that treats workers differently and, you know, gives weeks vacation off. The bat that gives, you know, that treats with dignity, that has a Union Representation and, you know, they had you tell this great story about their fir big order. He goes to a Union Convention and gets order for like, i dont ow, 5000 sweatshirts. And its big challenge to fill the order and then in the you know after they shipped the part of it he gets a picture on his phone that says, oh, theres a problem. Tell us a little bit about what that problem was. Yeah. Was a defining moment of the company so correct this this out the first third because they have a deadline antheyre working overtime to try to get the shipment out because they do not have inventory everything that they do and we should talk about that. But everything that they do is made order at the moment they like to get out from under that. So there. So he had never been when he had never worked at that before. This was very early in the founding, near the founding of their and so they had to get a large amount of fabric in a short amount of time and not only did they need fabric to make the 5000 sweatshirts. But they also needed a lot of extra fabric because they were trying out this new product and they knew that there would be high level of error. So there they knew that there would be a stack of sweatshirts that didnt meet their their demand. So they had this relatively team, a new product and so they ordered tons of fabric. Now they didnt know how to get fabric. I mean up to that point they connecting with middlemen who i guess were able to get short runs through North Carolina so so the they are the knitting companies are in North Carolina huge machines and huge like buildings in North Carolina. So anyway so yeah so they he at the last minute ben is able to locate whos who says he can get this fabric in a short amount of time. The fabric comes, they start cranking out these sweatshirts its and when they finally get shipped it turns out that the fabric was basically what you and i would call a second. It hadnt been made properly. It would probably xed different gauges, different lots of of yarn. There are holes the sweatshirt. Right. And so because of that, it immediately the fabric immediatelng as. Soon as people started trying to wear or use these pieces and. Ben and whitney new to this game they dont know this industry like a lot of people who are trying get into manufacturing now that you know theres a very steep learning curve. The stuff looks easy, but it is not. And they went back to their supplier and said, you know, were the middlemen in this case. And they said, what happened . And the guy basically them, they werent going to sue because they dont have the bandwidth do that and they dont want to do that. They just want to get this thing right. And thats how they end up in new york, in the garment district, talking to whats called a fabric. So this is somebody actually has a partner in, North Carolina, who works hand in hand with that partner to build the fabric basically from scratch so that it is perfectly for the the needs of the client. But he also is there to shepherd it through to make sure that the fabric is perfect. And so that was a breakthrough for them, you know, for ben and whitney like they learned that this was somebody who existed and somebody who was there for them and they finally able to get the fabric that needed and put out those sweatshirts and they they they were perfect they were beautiful. But, you know, steep learning curve. It almost put them out business that that first order because they had to front the 25,000 themselves to get the fabric to get the new fabric. What i love what i love about that story is that it really highlights the importance of relationships because their buyer had to forgive them and wait for, you know, a bit longer for the delivery. And it also highlights quality of why some of our clothes are so disposable. Much of what we buy today just falls apart in a couple of years or even, you know, the clothes i buy for. My daughter, they dont even last three months. Sometimes because the quality so poor. And i guess im just curious whether you think we become sort of a disposable culture, is that part of the what we got when we got free trade . Yeah, theres a lot of talk about plan obsolescence. We see that in our appliances arent supposed to last. Well and you actually write about this you know, there are within those appliances that arent supposed to last a day past. And yes. Because our economy is based consumer culture and if you make things the last people arent going to buy things when youre talking clothes specifically though. Theres been a lot of talk about fast fashion and i dont to i dont want to lean too hard that because so many other people talk about it and have written about it but that is indeed the case. It actually costs a tremendous amount of money, requires a lot of research to able to clothe ourselves with dignity. At this point, even the really high end brands, when you look how their clothes or apparel or shoes are made. Questionable theyre using less and less expensive methods. Its a very cynical approach. I think. So im a materialist, i guess you could say i was trained as an architect. I care about the details i care about the origins of things, obviously, but also the the care and materials and design things. And so i spend a lot of time. You mentioned your daughter. Spend a lot of time. Yes. Looking at my some of the things that my daughter has bought that she loves. And i just think this is barely even clothing this point. And i actually about ghana i can do farah would you mind if i just tell this quick story . Yeah. Go for it. Yeah thats okay. So you know those bins that are in parking lots across america where you can discard your used clothing . Yes. Maybe we have them here. We we have them in new england. So its a mystery where they go and turns out where those clothes go. We empty out our closets. We through our things. Theres stuff that doesnt fit whatever you can just toss it into bin, close that bin, walk away. You dont have to think about it anymore. So it turns out that in the 1970s, early in the early 1970s, those started going to west africa mostly ghana. And when they landed in ghana the the africans would open up these containers and marvel at incredible clothes that suddenly they were able to use and. Whole industry popped up where the ghanians were, you know, tailoring the clothes to fit them and them to appeal to the local markets and. Then reselling the clothes and it became huge, huge industry. And its funny because the term for those clothes in their language was dead mans clothes because there was they could not understand. They cannot fathom the idea a living person would get rid of their clothes. So there you have it. Right. And what is happened is that there is much junk now were buying a lot of it with toxic dyes, a lot of it with Petroleum Product in it that the that this market is kind of drying up the clothes are still going over there but its not the quality that it needs to be for for africans, repurpose it for their own needs and. So whats happening is its its literal garbage when it arrives, when they unpack it and, you know, they, they, it ends up clogging the waterways and. If you look online, you can see photos of our clothes our junk, basically, you know, in in enormous landfill all over west africa now because its all over. Its all over the continent. I used to live in east africa and the second hand markets were, i mean, amazing there. Its interesting that rwanda has been clothes from from coming like, nope, were not into this. And, you know, some people credit with the rise of indigenous you know cloths you know in in rwanda i you know, its its very interesting to see this coming full circle has this book writing this book changed the way you shop