using him as touting the access to donald trump and not surprising if he did it and the president knew about it now just because he was in office. >> chris, did you find rudy giuliani's explanation to dana bash today plausible? >> it's basically only explanation he can give, wolf, without creating a -- he's good that the and without creating a massive controversy saying, yeah, president knew that michael cohen selling access to him in the presidential transition, i mean, i think he get into really problematic, certainly political waters. i always say susan's advice on legal stuff and murky legal waters, as well. i think kaitlan is right which is essentially trump has a broad -- let's say trump has a broad understanding of cohen. i'll pay you a retainer. you solve problems for me. what do you get in return? you can say you solve problems for me. so, does that mean he knew what cohen was doing as it related to the presidential transition?