while i think the left appears and wants to appear to be merciful here, the opposite is actually true. what's encouraged by lawlessness of the border is child trafficking and sexual exploitation. >> you're creating a false choice, steve, i think, between lawlessness at the border and a decision to separate children from their parents. >> but i'm not. i'm not, john. if you say if you come in with a child, we won't separate you, you're effectively making kids admission tickets. as long as you have children we will do catch and release. >> the constitution -- >> norm, i did think the administration told me it wasn't a deterrent, steve seems to be saying the original policy was a deterrent. norm. >> well -- >> i think it was, and i frankly disagree with the executive order of the president. >> norm -- >> these children -- >> the things steve doesn't want