here, doesn't make it right. in the sense that -- you look at it and say look, if this is the initial argument that the trump campaign and donald, jr., were going to make, they can say initially, not after all of the changes in the story, look, hillary campaign coordinated with ukrainian government, we did, too, that's how politics works, move on. both sides do it, but instead there was a repeated walk back and repeated change of story which certainly damages the credibility, especially after months of trying to get over the story in the white house. >> martha: it does. emily, if they had done that, if they had come up from the beginning and said we had this meeting, this person came to us, we didn't know it was about, no information was exchanged, do you think that would have helped them know? when you think back to the period of these campaigns, paul manafort and although stories about who he was connected to, it looks like we have sort of entered a phase -- we've obviously entered the phase where there's almost no