>> does water boarding constitute torture? >> well, we know it didn't in 2001 through about 2006 or '07. i don't think it's the right thing to do. i don't think it's the wrong thing to do. i think you can do it in a way that it constitutes torture. i think you can do it in a way that constitutes training. i think you can do it in a way that it helps a person shift their priorities so that they experience less abuse later on. it's like every tool in the tool bag. you can underuse it, you can overuse it. >> joining me now is a reporter for the huffington post, ellie watkins and zach meachum. so there we see the mad genius who up this program. >> no background in islamism or serious interrogation or what to do in order to get real actionable intelligence. it's a wonder that the program didn't even go more off the rails than it did.