lawyers, lawyer for paul manafort, lawyer for michael flynn and this happened before flynn cut a deal with the special counsel and before manafort was indicted and we still are trying to report out what happened during that conversation and what the president knew but it's certainly significant as ben raised this question of while the president does have very broad pardon power, was this a dangle to keep both manafort and flynn from cooperating with mueller? and if that was, could that be construed as some kind of witness tampering? so that is the central question, i think, out of this development. >> so this new development, obviously there has been talk for a while of the president's pardon powers, his desire to exercise them, his desire to go kind of -- and be interviewed and show that he can do it.