out there. is that going to make mueller more stubborn? >> it may. i think mueller is going to -- i don't think mueller will do anything different because of the possibility of the pardon. manafort might. i agree, i think the president has signaled and sent up smoke signals and has been about as clear as he's going to be that he does ultimately to pardon manafort. there's the question of when. i believe if i had to bet, i would bet after midterms. if he does pardon manafort, there will be outrage and rightly so. but the reason we all, i think, would know would be to prevent manafort from cooperating. so if it were to get out that manafort was seriously considering that, that presumably would spur on the president to go ahead. >> and mueller has determined that manafort doesn't have anything, nothing you can get out of them? >> it's possible. could be that -- yeah it could be that mueller has decided that we don't trust manafort enough, he think he has too much baggage that we don't want to deal with,