Phone calls on an almost daily basis and ahead of celebrations on october the 1st among the 70th anniversary of the peoples republic on question is the long march chinas path to global supremacist. So a very warm welcome indeed to the 1st edition of the ws new International Political talk show to the point with me peter craven the focus this week is on chinas expanding global role and my guests chen so on a freelance journalist from china she says Angela Merkels visit to china came as a difficult moment but she accomplished a Mission Impossible also with us is out on the horizon most former china correspondent for germany say on the network and daria. I believe that china has excellent strategic qualities and capabilities europes answer must be a strategy old unity and under very warm welcome seems to know about it an american journalist whos trying to be a fellow at the mechanics or institute for china studies here in berlin they arent used quite simply the germany must show bully the shame on china. Thank you all 3 of you for being here today id like to begin with you chen soon and begin with the latest developments surrounding joshua wolf and how much of a controversy is it being and how well the chinese side likely to react. I think china react quite strongly in a way that they know they have to show that its their stance that this is not what they expected that what because especially one was just thing china and just so is this kind of. Almost like a balance of. Criticism from the german media side that america hasnt been folk have enough about this issue ok well talk about im going to visit to china in just a 2nd but 1st of all just sure were in this to d. W. Studios right here in berlin and he made this appeal. We hope people in germany and the chancellor castro a strong stand to support hong kongs democratization how to meet and fundamental call for us is to elect our own government. Ariano thats very clear people from just euro will know how germany go the German Government go in supporting their pro down democracy demonstrators in hong kong i think chancellor merkel has made clear in her visit in beijing that she asks for nonviolent response of china and hong kong and for peaceful peaceful solution of the hong kong conflict at the moment thats that she made it clear at the press conference of beijing thats one side the other side is should she have met josh along here in berlin i think no i think it was a good idea not to meet with him because she met has had that has met also with members of society in beijing like she also she didnt mind maybe its with germanys foreign minister and that clearly angered beijing considered definitely definitely and that was it was it a good idea for the Foreign Ministers to meet with joshua while i think it was not a good idea to have a photo of the meeting and to have it like to have a less a big symbol and the media of think that was a little bit of a too much i think meeting with activists meeting with with those of society with people who are struggling for freedom for democracy is a very good idea its one of the core values also of germany but you might get like public at a party of one of the german biggest newspaper im not sure whether that was a good idea i wonder what new things because in your quotes of itself of this no no we dont do you calling for more leadership from germany this is Leadership Meeting the foreign minister meeting which im sure a woman is of the right kind of leadership because it can be it will be explosive well the timing of it of course as you mentioned is a bit awkward merkel had come back only a few days before from china and i think that is probably seen in china as. A form of disrespect that one was was a welcome to hear that. The firm mr high command went to this party was photographed with him but i think you know americal when she was in beijing gave made very clear that she wanted a peaceful settlement of this conflict i dont see a big problem in the German Foreign minister meeting with joshua wang hes here in berlin. What i feel is that theres a bit of an overreaction on the chinese side to the Chinese Ambassador summoning the press and condemning this which is quite unusual and of a certain. Sure when he compared the situation in hong kong with the protests here in germany as a peaceful revolution here in germany that led to the fall of the berlin wall what do you make of that comparison and i think its i think also this comparison is a bit of all of a stretch in my opinion that 1st the where you know very defend his talk about it was very you know a different time now he compared this as the new cold war thing right now the whole world is not as bipolar as back then and also i think one thing we always try to make it clear is why chinas so im going at this point and also somehow way this metaphor is that what has just come as i as what his joshua want is he actually a just the activist the fighting for democracy or is he actually separate and thats a very distinctive point to that what is in a nutshell what is your answer to your own question i think from the point of view of the Chinese Government he definitely wanted to hang on to be not just democratic but also into pendent and thats a big question so are there is hong kong a front line city in a global battle between terry and systems and democratic systems i think a bit more complicated than that its definitely the front line at the moment and. Yesterday at this press conference and berlin sad about that in the polls have been tibet and now its home to more theyll be taiwan so he he put in a like a 4 up specked and i think. There is some truth to that picture but on the other side im not sure whether its like whether it is the symbol for the big new world it is one symbol of many many there are existing at the moment and we have to we have to look also out the right war at the moment of the track conflict between china yes we have to see what position europe has in between whether to put themselves where to put themselves or whether to have a known position on that point so i think its more complex than this just to put hong kong at the front line thank you all 3 of those initial comments lets just take a quick look now at the role that human rights played during the chancellors trip to china. Criticism is unwelcome and thats why german correspondents in beijing were not allowed to attend the press conference but chancellor Angela Merkel did answer the question of whether she had mentioned the protest in hong kong during the meeting she said she had talked about the rights and freedoms underpinned by the sino british declaration of the. Movies in the us and i pointed out that these rights and freedoms have to be guaranteed. The joint declaration is still valid. And it entails a number of Citizens Rights that should and must be respected. The Prime Minister read a prepared statement. The Chinese Government safeguards the principle of one country 2 systems. We support the hong kong governments efforts to end the violence on the streets and to return to order the Chinese People have the ability and wisdom to handle their own matters well. Can western politicians wield any influence regarding human rights in china. Or in that question. Your comments at the top of the show will have you saying this. Mission impossible to china. I think just the timing is a very. Very complicated so what whats this main goal visit to china i think to one is the address that issue thats whats going on because she faces a lot of pressure back home and the other one is for sure truth the bilateral relationship between germany and china specifically focusing on Economic Development this 2 topics actually contradict each other because if the she is too loud about. It well make of the common angry of course what have consequences in a way. Ship but if she is too quiet she will face tremendous criticism much of conduct of germany so i think she funder somehow a good balance between the 2 topics. Still clings to this policy notion of. Trade will career. Or china or a more human rights oriented china or a more liberal china critics on. You. I mean i think broadly she will have been happy with the way this trip went as as you were saying there was potential for for problems and tension and i think she when she headed back to berlin those the there hadnt been really any tension there hadnt been some big blow up. The protests in hong kong for example but i would say that what was missing from this trip was sort of the european approach weve seen europe taking a much tougher approach with china over the past year. Back in march i think it was french president Emmanuel Michel invited merkel and the European Commission president roh juncker to paris to meet with season ping to sort of send a message europe is united on china we cant be divided and going to beijing at this time after this year of reforms investment screening to protect german and European Companies from chinese chinese acquisitions to go there with a large contingent of german c. E. O. s to put the focus back on business i think some of germanys partners in europe may be questioning you know where whether the priority whether merkels priorities are in the right place the backdrop to what youre telling us there is there is what is often described by comments i do some pundits as a sea change in relations but with china in the last couple of years china becoming more globally ambitious china becoming more dangerous bumps yeah well i think weve seen this here in germany back in 2016 we had this the acquisition of this german robotics maker kuka and that kind of was a wake up call for a lot of people in germany also in europe we need we need a level Playing Field if we cant make acquisitions like this in china we need to prevent maybe china from from making such accusations here so but but but its not just these these corporate matters its also the spread of the debt and political influence through belt and road chinas surveillance state which is also being exploited to 3rd countries so there is a great deal of concern in in berlin and and in other european capitals about this. Were going to systemic rivalries what theyre calling it the European Union commission has called it out im going to medical school that surely bounces rivalry is healthy well rivalry is only healthy to a certain point to the point when it can create innovation for example when there is like a proper competition for for example but i think we are at the point at the moment which can be very dangerous especially to germany to an exporting country because. Germany and europe at the end caf no on sun the problem on so to whats going on between china and the u. S. At the moment if you if we look at the discussion about the Chinese Company huawei and zte and then to eat and all which is like the i. T. Industry of china of china like is there a way of of that industry becoming part of the european 5 g. Networks for example or whats the u. S. Reaction and what is like with all the Companies Supporting like little tiny parts for any of the goods to u. S. Companies than so the big danger i think is that europe and germany will be kind of might be a victim of a decoupling system of 2 systems so the rivalry at that point will not be healthy a tall it will lead to a very very big problem for for the germany common economy for the european economies and then also for the World Economy so i think there is a point where we everybody has to go back and say do we do we really want thought and to what extent do we to do we want to to put our positions for wood and not and not withdrawal who is touched on its already according to critics of beijing business with china really takes place on an even Playing Field and thats not the only problem. Chancellor Angela Merkel in china with the whos who of germanys business sector at her side you know 11 deals are signed. In 2018 china was germanys biggest trading partner for the 3rd year running by letter. Trade reaches almost 200000000000 euros. But the price of trading with china is high with regard to free Market Access for example despite many promises German Companies complain theyre at a disadvantage in china. With regard to industrial espionage and counterfeiting Foreign Companies that work with china lose millions to piracy. And then theres the social Credit System beijings way of monitoring evaluating and analyzing citizens and businesses. German companies fear all encompassing surveillance. Is china using to tell us here in methods to conduct trade. China creating a. Style system of controlling its own citizens. About the social Credit System. I think its very interesting to look at how that discussion whats going on here in germany for example and whats going on with the discussion going on in china now specially if for example about the Credit System and believe it or not many think its actually a good thing because it used to look at the crime rates. And then people feel safe im not saying that it has a cost or im saying its what a lot of chinese. People in general i think its 50 is somehow more important than privacy because they also help people look at privacy is a very different if you look at the privacy issues through the chinese lens they somehow rather sacrifice their privacy in order to get convenience and also safety so i think from that point of view doesnt even look at it as a Monitoring System so i think its a quite interesting to just try to i think the chinese has a point of view and how easy it is actually for the Chinese Government to build up a system. Well youre right that different comfort countries have different. Sense of what is acceptable and what isnt acceptable in privacy here in germany theres quite a strict view in china i think if you look at Public Opinion polls people are accepting of this i think maybe one of the worrying things is that this is being exported to 3rd countries in latin america. Africa etc so i think here in europe theres a concern that if if the west doesnt pull together europe along with the United States and set certain standards of data privacy theres a debate in the u. K. Right now about surveillance. For example at kings cross station. In london so this is a debate that that europe the United States other western countries have to have what is acceptable and what for them goes too far in talking about control and influence over and over there were going to talk about the the bells and Road Initiative its the biggest Infrastructure Project in the world they say its bringing jobs and Economic Opportunity to very many countries that havent have jobs and Economic Opportunity in the way that we do in europe it has to be a good think well no not necessarily because they also has to be stunned dogs and what theyre european you know what your money is focusing on the stuff that of course Infrastructure Investment and job investment is an investment that any at any level should come with such and such as transparency goals and certain standards of how investments and who how investments are done and who is doing this is rich coming from europe with her with the colonial background of the practices in many Southern Hemisphere countries in the past century that thats true that perspective is true but on the other side thats also the danger and that danger has been felt already by some all countries who have been like dealing with china and big infrastructure. Projects longer for example because they cant pay the debts at the end because the infrastructure programs and all those in roads and trains cant they dont bring the money they thought they will bring and then these countries with these poor countries on debt at a debt to china and at the end big infrastructure programs constructions will be chinese hands as has as has happened. So its not only an advantage and i think even those countries who might be also quite disciplined who has a very complicated history with european colonial. History with those they are also now kind of. Courses how and whether to deal with china because they have seen already quite bad examples so the interesting thing about the Road Initiative is that its not anymore brought forward in any talk it has been like a year ago and a year and a half ago when we held the Road Initiative with any any chinese official was talking this word definitely was even and now its kind of gone for the moment why is it gone because its not as successful as they thought and we maybe we thought other countries thought of from the very beginning. I think sometimes i honestly i never understood why do they have to come up with such a big concept and a name and then for people to target time it stands for whats dicer i actually because i think this comes to the sort of the chinese tradition they need a big title for they need a sort of almost like a monument to make sure that theres a certain credits being done by a certain leadership but theres a great impression the world one of the chinese ordinary chinese you dont know its very difficult to generalize but theyre. Comfortable with the status quo or do they do they yearn for their country to be an expansionist nation i think its always deep down rooted in the sort of the chinese psych psyche in a way thats because a weve been