Both of us on brownback welcome to conflict zone thank you the u. S. Recently held what was billed as the Worlds Largest meeting on religious Freedom International religious freedom delegates were welcomed by the same donald trump who said in 2016 i think islam hates us and when he became president a year later moved to bar the citizens of several muslim majority countries from entering the u. S. Does that help your campaign for religious freedom and i see it all as something for us that religious freedom is specifically a right of everybody everywhere all the time and what hes primarily discussing are immigration issues but youre certainly immigrating to your own party i mean there are people like john. The late John Mccain Lindsey Graham who were horrified by the state said this executive order sends a signal intended or not that america does not want muslims coming into this country and you can go to any state United States and you have mosque there or there and if you want to open up one yourself you can do it and the point of what we were talking about when i was psyched about here is International Religious freedom. And that is guaranteed here in the United States and if you cant practice in the United States youre well placed to bring any lawsuit that you would choose and to declare and put forward that you have a 1st amendment right in the United States to do this and the by the way we are not a perfect country and we dont claim to be but we are one the do it we do believe in these rights these fundamental rights like religious freedom we do practice them and we have problems and they end up in the court system but were going to continue to push these rights every chance and every place we can but the policy was condemned widely by religious groups including the Jewish Community the policy of barring people from muslim majority countries was the American JewishWorld Service code its nothing less than a xenophobia muslim back in the intent of which has been made clear by president jump through multiple anti Muslim Statements over several is it that it doesnt help your cause to be promoting International Religious freedom when you get responses like that does it. I dont i dont care for those responses but i also would stand for all of those peoples rights to save those and do it those things that they do and i would stand for their rights to practice religious freedom the United States i think you are conflating 2 to separate issues i think youre bringing in my opinion of what youre putting forward here an immigration issue which there are substantial. Questions about immigration theres a lot of dispute and debate about u. S. Immigration policy a legitimate discussion to have but what im talking about is a fundamental right to religious freedom to where there really isnt i dont think that much dispute that individuals the United States are all entitled to this fundamental right to practice their faith or no faith at all freely and there is a its not an arms by things which which donald trump has said. We were told yes they are about jews the president s Statement Last month to them that if you vote for a democrat youre being disloyal to jewish people youre being very disloyal to israel since when is it the business of a political leader to comment on the political views of a particular religion because the outrage yeah yeah my position and work is in best your religious freedom and thats what i comment on thats the line that im in and thats what im going to come on on on your program really until you die into those views that if you vote for a democrat youre being disloyal to jewish im not going to comment on those one way or the other ive got enough work to do in this job on religious freedom and anything you want to talk about on religious freedom im happy to discuss how about sort of brownback you said that you saw pushing for religious freedom as a way to promote of the rights you said if we get it right youre going to get more freedom of assembly is going to be more press freedom is going to be more free speech taking place you set that into law yes fact is when you drill down there is little or no evidence for that is that oh i did i had to dispute that completely. If you if you look at this issue on religious freedom which has been declining and contract in around the world the last 10 years in particular you see these other rights decline in retracting often religious freedom or the persecution of people of faith as one of those 1st issues that happened biggest manipulated the most the earliest. And you can see countries that really honor religious freedom tend to be ones that also on her 1st amendment rights of free speech and of assembly you can also say theres a couple other correlations on this i appreciate the question there are a couple correlations that i think youd be interested in one is youre going to see less terrorism if you have more religious freedom and there is a factual basis for that as there are for these others and youre going to find more Economic Growth if you get more religious freedom this is thats why we talk about this in the sort of foundational sense in july you looked at the United Arab Emirates which you singled out as being one of the good countries they hosted you said the 1st of a papal visit on the Arabian Peninsula and theyve been stepping up and doing a lot more so you gave just cold stuff for them this is a state which truly detains and forcibly disappears individuals who criticize the authorities you made no mention of that when you were giving them the go its you i didnt have those additional things but also as i could be out on the mental things and they are they are but also because i made sure that your best friend in the ocean had of democracy what do you think im sure what did you think of the papal visit for the 1st time in the history of mankind to the Arabian Peninsula what did you think what their video coverage what do you think that on the well what do you know i think though what do you what do you think about that people arent interested in my views say you know are my goodness youre putting on forward right now what i mean here you know but i mean what what jail for theyve used thought about it well im sorry but that comforted them well lets lets talk about what happened. Thats talk about you have a papal visit on the Arabian Peninsula thats never happened in the history of mankind do you think thats significant though so you are blows up even human rights a blessing is the let me give me finish the thought we finish the thought if you want to answer my question ill finish my thought here that there what youre doing is youre starting now to. Open up in an Arabian Peninsula area that hasnt had these freedoms put forward before but hasnt had a papal visit ever happened before this starts to talk about some of these rights and my job that i see is one that youre always trying to move people along the process here and helping its not free speech just dont talking about democracy the only difference is the shot here of it is the let me let me finish this thought here what youre trying to do is to get these countries to move on forward and that you hope that as you move them forward on these things that they will tend to engage more people that have a broader set of thoughts and that you can get to more of these as you saw in the going to do that the ruler of the u. S. Has 6 and wife is holed up in london having run away from him terrified that shell be kidnapped like to live his daughters world with a child together with thoughts who you are dealing with. Hes got no intention of changing him being becoming a Democratic State and you and this is one of the good hunch is you name it well this is one that held a papal visit this is one that i went to mass there in that country my biggest problem getting the mass was the traffic i wasnt blocked from going there thats not true in a number of islamic countries where i have visited and you dont have the degree of ability to move around they are not a perfect nation and they have many things they need to improve upon but im going to just redo my religious freedom the government chooses and vets all the amounts issues weekly guidance for the friday prayers and even informal islamic teaching has to be approved by the government is that religious freedom and how do you think you can i didnt put a gold star said on this not once i did why dont you compare him to what the saudis do and what do you think about im going to saudis and other lets talk about the sound of the saudis a bit late well no because you never thought it was so discouraging what must be well what did you ever think about how do you ever improve a situation. Do you. Just say were going to stand back and were going to condemn completely and all the time and you guys arent doing enough and were not going to talk or work with or is this you try to engage this the right way Michael Brown then the president said what are you going to your way to do it but Michael Abramowitz president of Freedom House said the u. S. Cannot effectively promote individual liberty human equality or democracy by narrowing the definition of human rights to exclude broad categories of rights or people and to focus on International Religious freedom excludes democracy free asked for the poor its like that those so the obama years this was being done much better and progress was i didnt make it our idea should have you just say about obama you know youre just saying that of the way of just saying were going to stand back and be critical and were not going to engage is a much better way to go quoting an individual than saying that thats the way to do it i choose to believe and ive been around and working on these issues for a few years i carried the original really international legis freedom bill i was one of the key sponsors of that in a Democratic Administration that didnt want to really see this become law and sense and weve continued to put these reports forward weve continued to work on this topic and i think without those sorts of efforts you wouldnt see youd youd see further backslide and then we are today but im busted and so i think these are key things that we try to push this on forward the only tell you what about high individual told me that he was a little you because i want to get through quite a lot of ok what do you want to fight so lets so lets do this well yes you do sir you dont want to hear about what direct ways we want to go at this i do i want to hear how you explain away this single minded focus on the International Religious freedom and ask you how discouraging you think that might be to human rights victims in because. Yeah i know i did our banner at your variance very bright man and youve interviewed many people much brighter than me over a long period of a very successful career and i applaud that you know that and that i have a certain Statutory Authority the position i am under statutorily created position and it has a narrow mandate and then narrow mandate is on religious freedom and its on every country in the world except one which is the United States and its not only United States because this is a very robust and difficult debate in United States and we want to keep a bipartisan support for this topic and i dont want to have the stand if you take egypt for instance where donald trump said in april that president r. C. C. Was doing a great job and was a great president. The question is whats so great about ignoring the escalating campaign of intimidation the violence of the arrests against political activists many others who voiced produces in april 17th senators including james risch the republican chairman of the Senate ForeignRelations Committee drew attention to what they called serious concern about the erosion of political and human rights in egypt but you think theyre doing great your boss just thinks theyre doing great. How do you think he compares to president morsi when he was in as you gyptian the leader of egypt how do you think sisi compares. He has tried to achieve more people who see do. You think see our young worsley gigantour see is worse than morsi do you not think torture is worse no no im asking when you see didnt go around cairo murdering babies you know hes the head of the Muslim Brotherhood. Hes the Muslim Brotherhood. Its not. That strongly reputable of a group but you would rather have them in and so you see. Is that he truly id rather people not being praised to subject their citizens to. Industrial degrees of torture yeah and you saw morsi and the man who was responsible oh it was mr al sisi was responsible Human Rights Watch said and 2013 for one of the largest single day massacres in modern times in the city for which nobody has ever been held responsible somewhere between 40800 people die. And it indiscriminate killing by Egyptian Forces who see didnt do that. I think there would be a variance of opinion of believing that the Muslim Brotherhood been in power in egypt is better than c. C. P. In a tower no i do not claim and i dont think anybody in this administration with the c. C. Is perfect or near perfect by any means you feel preys on and i think that ones word that there would be criticism and that there has been criticism that there will be criticism but there i also believe there are people trying to work with this government in egypt saying this is a major player in the middle east and in some way that we need to work with some ways when i was in the senate i worked a lot with Hosni Mubarak and president mubarak had a lot of problems and he did a lot of things that were highly questionable but youre still saying ok then whats the alternative and is it the Muslim Brotherhood yes thats the alternative well i dont think thats the right way to go. In january secretary of state colin powell was in cairo he too was heaping praise on the c. C. He said hes really taken to heart the ideal of religious freedom and hes done so with great power and great courage and he is to be lauded for that the facts are rather different when it comes to religious freedom in egypt not the egyptian christians who are the largest no community in the east live in a minefield of of legal and social discourse. Elation you know and i mean maybe you meet with more people that are dealing with religious issues in egypt tonight do i doubt it but ive met with a number of people that are practicing people of faith minority faiths in egypt. And heres what they tell me. That this is much better under the c. C. Government than it has been even though you would prefer the Muslim Brotherhood they do not. There is communal violence is taking place and it is very discouraging. They are very appreciative of the signals that president sisi is sending from on time and top and trying to push they very much appreciate him dedicating in opening up a church because of the signals that it sends they are not appreciated as are being closed as well and let me finish this point if i could with you they appreciate some of that now i look at it and i see a lot of problems that are taking place. These are these are not the sort of thing where you you pick the perfect against what you have right now this is the sort of situation where you say this is its either candidate a or candidate b. Within us and they would rather have the Current Situation than what they had. But not as you see right for respecting religious freedom it would be nice if they were 14 churches were shut down by the authorities between september 26th seen in april 28th with cultic christian is denied access to them and for a service is prohibited in one village south of cairo theyve been waiting since 2001 to have a church and last december they were attacked by muslims was stoned no one was held responsible and the christians have had to suspend all that you know and all those things ought to be addressed. And we put those for daily use in our red theyve got a gold star and the secretary of state not get a gold star he didnt say i give you a gold star oh he said you did you look at our report our religious. You know reported that the secretary issued on egypt he said and cites a number of these problematic things that he said hes really taken to heart the ideal of religious freedom and hes done so with great power great courage and he is to be lauded for that thats what he did so. He also put out that report and you look at the reports which very few people read. And i would dispute that within the religious freak religious Freedom Community this is the Gold Standard to use your terminology this is the Gold Standard on religious freedom the secretary of state issued that report he signed it he cited it he put it forward and he stands by it. The best of the lets talk about how you think you should look at that report ambassador lets talk about the u. S. Attitude to human rights because this is so much as anything goes where it was changed one country pushes religious freedom any more than the United States. What about all the other fun