And imposing Surveillance Systems on its own citizens europe and china are apparently drifting further apart while the u. S. And beijing fight out of bitter trade war here on to the point we ask not old rival how dangerous is china. Or thanks so very much for joining us here on to the point where my studio guests are political scientist didi Kirsten Tucker low who believes that china will do away with a liberal democracy if the west allow it was to also with us is journalist felix levy who argues that europe must be hard and firm in its dealings with the chinese leadership just like the chinese themselves and a warm welcome to 2 over alexander girl who says as long as there are a concentration. Camps in china deccan never be normal relations with that country. Thank you all 3 for those initial comments felix id like to begin with you it is not been a good week for already troubled relations between the e. U. And china one Senior Member of the European Parliament a green member of the Parliament Said those relations are now as bad as it any time in recent decades you agree. Well the summit didnt show this because i mean it was a very short summit it was only. Between the europeans. And merkel as the president came up and also on. The line and if you like business as usual but i must agree on the position im not sure if its a good sign because there are a lot of topics which should have been talked about and should have negotiated much harder and it seems like this didnt happen so it is a bad sign ok tedi just an initial comment from you europe for a long time believed and hoped that if there were if we kept talking to each other then there would that would lead to peace and prosperity and more understanding it hasnt happened that way at all has it no it hasnt because the realities of power are much tougher than that unfortunately and i think the challenge of dealing with a communist party such as the chinese one which is really forged in huge amount of conflict and underground activity as well really almost i dont want to say beyond the capacities of liberal democracies but i think a certain stretch our capacities to the very limit. Xander lets bring you in in the last year or 2 the e. U. Has gone over to describing china as a systemic rival was not me well i mean china has deployed its own ideas in International Institutions for instance indeed i did nations where they propagate their own idea of human rights which is basically one which is without any civic right. Its both slave like social rights you say like you give the you want something to eat and that you should be thankful for so china has been undermining the liberal institutions not trying to abolish them but like to be like changing the game the games of that the rules of the game. You know you know because im just if you can give us an idea about on top of all the things that youve talked about already what will role does the corona pandemic play in all this. You know code 19 wherever it came from. In china as it emerged there really has obviously brought things into very sharp focus and i think is being used as an opportunity by beijing to buy into europe or to try to bind your very closely to china along the lines of you know heres a crisis we must pull together our interests of the same and then the the the pushbutton points come the talking points you know health is going to argue against Health Cooperation multilateralism whos going to argue against cooperation multilateralism you cant do that without seeming really kind of unpleasant and nasty and of course this is what donald trump is in some ways doing and look what the reaction is in europe but you know the again the realities of the power realities behind these arguments coming out of beijing are such that i think that we really need to question ourselves much more strongly about how were reacting before the americans meanwhile my pump air has said theres been an awakening because of corona and because of chinas aggression interest in trade and diplomacy well i think trust has plummeted people are horrified and no no no wonder. Its you know its its a cliche say things are complicated but that they are quite complicated with china i think so so weve got a lot of talking and walking out to do going forward. Thing you know the very very large motif are always so far has been changed through trade amount no longer applies what is the new light motif what is a new watch word for the where we are now. A lot i feel like. At this point we have to sort out our general guidelines of policies with china as in like the one china policy is obsolete because the peoples republic is threatening taiwan which is like not part of the one china deal we have seen what happened in hong kong which is also like a breaking on International ContractLike International law we see like the horrendous things that happen in changing and now to cracking down on in among golyer so literally as i hope agreeing that genocide is not an opinion its just literally before we talk about trade and the modalities of trade its just literally the dog what country do you want to be china. Also economy have changed the relationship. Also between europe especially germany and china has changed and i sometimes doubt the people here in germany especially the government if they have realized how much it has changed i mean china is not to longer just be cute market where you can sell german machines but china china has become a rival on on a lot of terms and. The difference is that behind Chinese Companies theres always a strong communist party and a strong communist government and sometimes i have a feeling that here people do things ok we are business were on the same level were not they have a very powerful government behind it and here a lot of German Companies are you paying companies they dont have a lets just watch one short report because there is one thing thats certain theres massive mistrust between the e. U. And china certainly around europe theres a lot of concern a lot of anger of whats been seeing is bargain hunting chinese investors taking advantage of the corona pandemic to snap up struggling companies heres one example from germany that will talk. Kitchens made in germany such as those from pog in paul are among the best in the world after 120 years of Company History the German Kitchen manufacturer is now in chinese hands. In order to secure long term survival at the hereford facility it was necessary over the last few months to initiate the sales process of the pen demick was certainly a factor that moved us to expedite this process. China is investing billions around the world but there is a fear that chinese corporations are taking over companies on such a large scale for a very specific reason chinese want to be Global Leaders in important emerging markets within a few years to achieve this the need for know how which they are buying with state support and that is of course part of the distortion of the market which is not ok because from what i can europe do about this. So that we all want talking about the economy again and cast into. Something that she wants to go to to express very important yeah i mean i suppose one looks at these stories about public pool for example or med which is another company that made medical ventilators that was bought by chinese interests i think in march this year in the you know its a covert 1000 crisis in europe and. You sort of all self you know its like these 2. System value systems as they are the democratic one and this is terry and want to put it politely i think you know i really have somehow thought that they were paying same game but theyre not playing the same game to the one side is playing tennis the other side is playing badminton how is that going to work you know that there are these the fundamentalists agreements just arent there about about a lot of issues and i think that you know in we thought for many years now for decades now with china that. Somehow you know capitalism would win the day and and china would change in fact china is changing us i see that all the time in the discourse in the in the narrative about about how things are here and you know i think we really need also need to question our assumptions that money somehow has has morality embedded into it i dont think money i. E. Trade or capitalism necessarily has morality i think its about making money and i think that is the job of politics politicians Civil Society and other people to insist on the right parameters within which relations and also trade can take place and on the boats if you like i would trade agreements now have a different nature as they used to have like lets say 30 years ago its about Environmental Issues its about rights so does a well implemented now in trade agreements the European Union forces and that is also put it puts you on clash with china i remember in colombia and she lowered aid for try to build some Infrastructure Projects and then the governments there said well then you employ because then they said no we bring our own and then of course then its a Business Model if you have to implement about us rights and Environmental Issues so you and the chinese didnt have a Business Case anymore so i feel like we have the Human Rights Violations big time what i said before but on top of that was that the nature of our trade agreements is different than it used to be 40 years ago. View to put things in place i mean germany still is a much bigger investor in china than vice versa so a very not more not necessarily bad. Hi nice Companies Invest in little German Companies help them because a lot of these little companies they have problems to find successors and so its not necessarily bad the problem is when china is trying to do the investing in in the help with the help of the government in also Strategic Companies like im talking about infrastructure and im talking about 5 g. Network which is now also very important and i think this is the problem that the europeans and especially germany doesnt have a doesnt recognize that there is a strategy behind and they just made it happen this is probably so i think on this term its the German Government or the europeans who have to make their homework and put borders and say ok there are Certain Companies which are not for sale think thats right i mean weve europe has really been stupendously naive in many ways i think and part of that is the normative power of European Values self belief economic systems the kind of capitalism that we have had in europe and in the United States we sort of had again had this kind of moral power to change other people we put those terms into the trade agreements you quite right and then itll change everything well no because thats not what you know other government or other systems want they dont want those parts of the agreements really it seems to me they will sign it to make the deal go but they will then try and work against it and my concern with china as well is that even if. You know this is a comprehensive agreement on investment even if something is reach which im highly skeptical about is going to happen this year is there also you know anything that does happen is going to be tiny its going to be ready or we saw a sign of that with the german wine and be a make a deal etc you know peanuts right math yeah drinks peanuts right. So so you know again i think that i mean i think the whole trade thing is complex etc but we do need to ask ourselves what were doing and whether we have just convinced ourselves that were completely right about a lot of stuff which i think we are right things to be honest especially human rights area but whether or not that is actually going to be enough to deal with china to do the basic assumption is and you alluded to it a few times those like once you have trade going on it also automatically somewhat open up societies and to disclose and societies and thats actually true like in hong kong where you were when you were still allowed to do that it was flourishing in democratic ways taiwan is a fully functioning democracy so only if autocrats like she put pressure on these countries use technological means they can. Oppress this sort of Democratic Movement but the basic assumption that we had in the free bird which is not only the best but its also taiwan japan south korea as its extending over the whole globe with a just a vest on fantasy of idea where to mony a like you said of values wherever you can you want democracy and thats actually also the threat is using being that like in hong kong and taiwan people just choose Something Different than his aquatic system which he sells to the world as the inherent chinese model of governance. Our central question here on the show today we havent addressed it where i havent put it yet this is china or a puppet no or a rival how do you how do you see that in the context of what youve just been saying about these competing systems and under the leadership of Xi Jinping China has become an adversary of the rest of the world and now nowadays its a little like an enemy so they year really and im sorry and an enemy of the rest of the world of. The biggest like the ideas like to undermine the clovelly institutions what happened with the World Health Organization is horrendous and to exclude taiwan un from this from distanced from this entity its horrendous and its part of a of an ethnic sort of shoving isms lesh racism sort of idea that came into being through pings reign where he like i mean its china was not certainly not a free country before but it has been going down that alley of more openness but she reverted to policies of openness to an extent of china before 2013 and china now is just like not recognize it and she wants to scrap entirely liberal democracy. I have a few days he does want to and i think that it is a difference i mean of course china has in the last 7 decades has been an author of terror in communist country but in the eightys in the ninetys and even in the beginning of 2002 until 2010 everyone or a lot of people had the feeling ok if opening up and maybe not its not fully democracy becoming a fully democracy in a western style but somehow it makes its china finds its way under see this. The opposite is happening and. To the question if china is a rival or a partner i would say of course i mean china is the big country with 1300000000 people and economy the economy is strong and the rest of the world of course has to keep on talking negotiating and communicating with china but Uncertain Terms human rights whats happening in bed in hong kong and dealing with taiwan i think. I would totally agree. I would call it is not a partner is an enemy and so i have i would say ok and if she is not willing to to to compromise on any terms i would say the west of europe or and also germany has to has to consider heart of measurements what can the europeans learn from the americans on dealing with beijing oh i think they i think they have a lot to learn from the americans this extraordinary level of research and knowledge going on in the us into china that i simply dont see in europe. I do see some of the europeans underestimate the chinese so were not taking them seriously because the chinese often give signals that they feel misunderstood oh yeah well of course they would i mean its very helpful to argue that one is misunderstood and therefore to gain sympathy and thats of course what thats about is that you know. Any sympathy changing the atmosphere in democracies to several different dishes or is there no i think its a fact we can see how it happens through propaganda through the shaping of arguments the framing of arguments for the establishment of systems of support for the communist partys political authoritarianism even including here in germany us to my research i uncovered a network of about 37. 00 german organizations for china friendship which you know per se is is fine wonderful if its independent for example but its not because you know it was actually set up in a very carefully structured way from beijing that was outreach from beijing shall we do this and then one Network Connected to another and if you go into their website. They there is only procommunist Party Discussion and debate that there is not another point of view so its of really a really effective propaganda. Influencing and interference system that is coming out of beijing targeted at the west why because liberal democracy is dangerous for a communist system and a Congress System cannot tolerate opposition because its its well by definition its a one party so it cant tell that opposition so whats happening is that in order to make the world safe the china if you like or the communist party it has to somehow control manager shape criticism debate and discussion elsewhere in the world is simply has to happen otherwise it gets too dangerous a home for the party and thats the point where the real frictions starts and thats the point where i think weve arrived at now ok alexander up next we we we talked about the americans american President Donald Trump has for years taken a tougher approach on china than the europeans and as a result washington and china have been locked in a bitter and destabilizing trade war and theres a huge showdown over the globally successful social media platform take talk the u. S. Fears the Parent Company by dunces passing user details on to the chinese authorities washington says china must sell off the u. S. Branch of its business or the amp will be banned i