And welcome to to the point we have a great roster of guests to answer that question its a pleasure to introduce Clifford Kuhn and he was a Foreign Correspondent for 15 years in beijing and he says chinas success in dealing with the coronavirus shouldnt distract from its emergence as a challenging strategic rival and im very pleased to welcome our its googles hes an analyst an expert on china at the german think tank s w p and he says china has been partially successful in gaining International Discourse power by revealing an ugly side beijing has failed to profit more significantly from the covert 1000 crisis. And were very pleased to have with us kyung son she is a freelance journalist from china and she says compared with a financial crisis 2890. Recovery plan is greener more domestic and digital oriented. Then we start out by asking you rudolph china has reported Economic Growth of nearly 5 percent in the 3rd quarter of this year thats a rate almost equal to what it was doing before the pandemic hit but how reliable are those statistics both on the infection rate and also on the economy well big numbers in china always a difficult topic by itself but when we speak about a general trend of recovery especially compared to other Major Economies in the world we can say that china has been more successful than other countries in actually come going back on track and with its Economic Development so i think we can see well if you analyze the daughter the daughter is robust saying that of course this has increased if you dig a little bit deeper than the question of course is where is this growth happening different problems with the gruel population and the urban population of the get as they get actually widening and it seems to be the case is the gap widening between state owned enterprises and private enterprise as the answer is yes there as well when well come back to the stability and sustainability of that growth picture a little bit later but let me ask you this jensen how do the Chinese People see it do they have the feel the feeling that china is well and truly out of the woods beyond the pandemic and ready to sail full steam ahead. I think the short answer is definitely yes because right now if you compare whats so the private private life peoples daily activities. Of china other than cannot go abroad for vacations. The daily activity pretty much the same as before the pandemic happens and people definitely have a different view now. Whats going inside that was going outside clifford couldnt you say in your Opening Statement that showed his success in dealing with corona shouldnt quote unquote distract from its emergence as a challenging strategic rival doesnt chinas success in fact prove the comparative effectiveness of its model at least economically i think a lot of us do with what price youre prepared to pay for these situations we see at the moment a systemic battle emerging in the way between us and china which some are describing as a cold war i think this excess of the coronavirus in china but also in countries like taiwan new zealand. Finland and even germany has been pretty good at dealing with you know shows that the very this very tough approach is very effective but you do have to ask yourself for cost dot coms and whether youre prepared to theres a theres a lot of things that just cant happen in a democracy that can happen in china so these are this is where people have to weigh up what sort of what approach they want to take. Sometimes you hear people in the west especially businessmen and women saying that the chinese are simply more effective at getting things done what you say theres some truth to that and do the chinese themselves see it that way i think of a very interesting question and a very relevant. I think to a certain extent the very i think its starting from even that education right so if you compare what a High School Student like their schedule daily and come here was to what a german student or american student youre sort of i mean i dont believe theres a difference by race or by different nationalities i dont think that exists but it true the Education System and then people have been trying to perform it differently and have a different expectation of how much work and how effective that that specific person should be having those a different saying that so let us take a look at. How china got things done when it came to Pandemic Management we have a record that takes a closer look at the measures that brought the virus under control in the city where it 1st emerged. December 2019 chinese authorities recorded the 1st infections of an unknown one disease in the city of on the outbreak probably occurred i dont want market Coronavirus Spread at breakneck speed throughout the country and infected more and more people many died. Trying to build emergency hospitals in record time shut down entire cities and closing off residential districts hundreds of thousands of people were locked down on their homes for weeks and Stores Remained closed to china in lockdown. Those who were allowed to move around again were closely monitored by the state with thermal imaging cameras and clinical thermometers the government also reported the Movement Patterns of. Apps provide information on individuals health and location no access without screaming. In the fall of 2028 the city has its everyday life back without masks without social distancing its as if the pandemic had never existed are dictatorships better at fighting disease. Let me put that question straight away to more coupled with the question relating back to your Opening Statement because it talks about chinas tactics as having an ugly side but if you see those pictures of normal life if you see these numbers on recovery couldnt you argue that the social and political benefits outweigh the costs. Well what china wants to do is once through the show to the world that is the responsible International Power of course we have seen that as an efficient system to. Control the spread of the virus but that doesnt make china responsible International Power what they want to be so the question has been china at the beginning of the crisis they were sending off italy to spain to other countries that are really hard hit from the crisis but it is same point of time just a couple of months later chinese for diplomacy was really aggressive directly against other European Countries so china actually had an opportunity to show their side because especially with the United States not filling in this role china actually has a chance of doing that but they havent been doing so in practice because some of the equipment the last sent was of low quality and in addition they showed a really really strong and aggressive and pushy side to cash in the favor just a couple of weeks that they were delivering that so the mosque diplomacy is failed the question is whether and next a nation diplomacy it will be successful but domestically speaking if you look at the measures that were taken which you criticize is having an ugly side measures surveillance measures to some degree of social repression dont you dont you think that they did deliver real benefits to the people well we have to say that those measures that they were put in place of course they were at the price of individual liberty so of course for the chinese side theres no interest in upholding the individual liberties of individuals and the process this was already in charge and placed before was only accelerated through the through the corona crisis so if you say that the most important issue in life is state stability then of course it is really efficient and then the answer would be yes but if there are other areas which you would consider of important and Human Interaction in living in a country then the question then the answer would be no so let me come to to ask how again how pete. In china see its sometimes said that the governments handling of the pandemic as we saw it there in that report has actually boosted trust in the government and the state would you say thats right. I would say its right because i think in the end people look at look at whats there is out and the result is really reading front of our eyes that chinas life is receding almost back to normal and. I think the intent of this mentality is kind of a very strong that the benefits of the manning outweigh the benefits of the few and i think also the government used this opportunity to tell a really good story they use their almost seems like a crisis and that was actually in the chinese whats crisis means way gee thats actually a crisis hidden behind the opportunity and thats what the government has been done so in fact some people who tried to report on the uglier side of the way that the government handled the crisis including in at the height of the pandemic faced very severe repression i think a couple have in fact not been heard from in quite some time has that had no influence on Public Opinion i think that we also have to look at how Public Opinion is a form doing turner i so we dont really have the publics a fear thats very sophisticated here for it isnt going europe or you know other countries and how the media plays a different role in time is also very different they are more of a vox say for the government once the people to hear instead of forming this publics a fear for opening discussion and so theyre broadcasting what the opinions that want to be heard instead of having a critical voices so i think that has a different layer or add a different layer to the whole story clifford if you wish speak to that point as well but id also like to know coming back to this idea of whether. Dictatorships are better at getting things done why it is that china manages to erect enormous medical facilities in record time manages to roll out a Mass Testing Program for millions of people in record time and apparently smoothly as well where western countries struggle well over the years ive covered many major stories in china and one was the was the earthquake in sichuan in 2008 there i was witness how there was this incredible operation to to to fix the situation. And dictatorships can mobilize in this sort of way but i mean if you look at taiwan which is democracy for example also ethnically chinese largely it also had a very small very small number of cases and a very successful in controlling it so or if you look at new zealand you know thats also been very successful so i dont think its dictatorships per se certainly they can do things they can introduce these mass projects very quickly but i think again if it comes at the cost of personal liberty you know the whistleblowers who as you mentioned who were taken away. Dictatorships also create a narrative and this narrative is what people are theres no alternative to this narrative within china because dissent is very quickly online dissent in wheelchairs and stuff is very quickly. Done away with so its those are the options basically. Its what do you think that some of the chinese tactics that we saw there in that report the measures of surveillance and so on can and will be applied in western countries as well as they seek to bring the virus under control im thinking for example of the corona apps and so on do you have concern that china because weve become a kind of a model in ways that you see as problematic well i think the dividing line will always be that the. Protection of private data i think this is just is a different approach to that in europe than there is there to china i think more interesting will be whether a 3rd countries like in europe i dont see it happening at all but maybe in countries that are logically may be divided between oriented themselves towards looking at the west or looking east the corona crisis definitely will convince many of them that the chinese approach is more efficient it is maybe less costly so those countries are the ones that will be more interesting to to look at and i think that the chinese side has been quite efficient in approaching exactly those those countries cancer and our report showed normal daily life returning in. How confident are people there and how confident are you personally looking at the situation from abroad that the situation really is stable and sustainable that the pandemic wont come roaring back for example when the cold season starts i think from a Public Health perspective yes i think a bay controlled all the borders and theyre not there theyre really people even coming lending china without any trace and also theres a really strict according to policies right now in china so whoever comes from abroad would have to enter a 14 day card not at home in a hotel separately so i think from Public Health perspective yes but if you look at from a look at from Economic Perspective for example right now the boost in recovery is quite large leave rely on mass to activities but china is a very important part of the entire supply chain and economic change so how long time i can stay like this or how fast the economic can just read it depends on the international and Global Environment as well something of thats the question people are asking right now and were coming to that topic in just a moment but i want to have one brief look at chinas corona diplomacy and the question of the vaccine. Because china is now saying that its likely to have a workable vaccine by the end of the year and that it plans to share that vaccine with its closest and neediest lies so do you think Clifford Kuhn and that that actually will be the next big triumph for beijing or is this perhaps just ahead a dose of propaganda. I think its a dose of propaganda i think what weve seen so far has been this wolf socalled wolf warrior diplomacy which has been extremely aggressive characterizing. The equipment that was being sent as a when in fact was being paid for the criticism of the response by the french government for example has been a lot of of the senior diplomats in europe of being chinese diplomats in europe would be behaving very badly and the recent survey by the pew Research Body showed that the majority of well western companies have a worse opinion of china than they did before the coronavirus i think if the vaccine comes out it could be does a lot of questions about the vaccine whether theyve gone to stage 3 testing if it can happen so quickly how all of this is happening. So often with china you come up against a brick wall where the questions stop you know like how did the how did the virus come about we dont know because nobody can investigate this is a big issue and you know so all of these questions are coming together so i think while the vaccine it may have a short term effect of it is effective but i think longer term these questions still remain. Very quickly if you would. Are you more optimistic about the vaccine than when we just heard i think if a bit more nuanced discussion though it appears to be so because right now the frontrunners have a kind of vaccine Chinese Company is part of it but theyre also joint ventures for example one of this a vaccines is actually jointly to develop a by a German Company and has investment from u. S. And from Chinese Company and this is somehow. On the private Company Level so i think they so on top of a state promoted and and. Development that serves the purpose of propaganda there are actually real collaboration is behind that as well so let us now come back to the question of where things go economically from here and the fact is the Global Economic balance was shifting eastward even before the pandemic so does chinas coronas success translate into an even more dominant position going forward. More and more higher and higher faster and faster new houses and factories are springing up like mushrooms that creates jobs and growth after coronavirus employ exports the worlds 2nd largest economy is now steaming ahead with the help of an economic stimulus package. Are being made in both infrastructure and industry but china is not. A new coal power plant which in addition to cement and steel climate. In september the chinese head of state promised. That the country. By the year 2016. Officially china is sticking to this goal but the focus is now on unconditional growth thats one of the reasons why china. To experience growth. But how high is the price for this. Past that question. How high is the price is this Growth Strategy as. Well i think we have to have to see in the next quarter with the. Prove to be a Sustainable Growth model from the chinese side i think at the moment some of the biggest strategic questions remain unsolved which is that Many Companies in europe and the United States are 2nd guessing to what extent their close economic relations with china are in the long term best interests so i think this is a question that even intensified and the future theyre not and whether German Companies profiting from increasing exports to china of course this is the case the question is how sustainable this will be because the structural problems to china is facing and has been facing for quite some time and then not being solved with the current stimulus. Just but of course we have to say that from the chinese that the most important goal there is to become a high tech leader and using as was mentioned before this crisis as an Economic Opportunity to become to become a World Champion to provide the world with solutions in this way but we have to see whether the chinese states domestic. Process of having this connection with companies in the states will actually lead to innovation which is helpful to solving the the crowd the questions emerging off the core of the crisis and in your Opening Statement you said that chinas covert Recovery Plan is green and digitally oriented but 26. 00 new coal fired power plants in planning and support for the Auto Industry would hardly qualify as being very green so is china ultimately prioritizing rapid growth over sustainability i think a we have to look at the so the key what is also planned so the plant is to be greener and to be more digital oriented and if a compare with the stimulates as package released a right after the financial crisis in 2008 back then that 4 trillion run was really carbon intensive and based on building highways and bullet trains and really infrastructures and right now the plan is to build the socalled new infrastructure plans based on ai 5 g. And i was a digital infrastructures in a short term look at the Economic Growth in the sort of quarter of this year is a still quite highly lets say carbon intensive and this think tank. They had a really sort of a very sort of track record not track or the track to how chinese sort of economic boost correlated with the the carbon usage for the for the for this year and at the beginning of a pandemic is a drop down but right now its going up again cliff or beyond that arent there are some other hidden weaknesses in chinas growth model as well im thinking of very high debt or the fact that china is very very dependent on exports could that ultimately trip china up. Well i think people have been calling the collapse of the chinese growth model for a long time so im always a little bit wary about jumping in on this but certainly there are high levels of debt but its also a very its a very large economy and its shown itself to be very flexible in dealing with changing conditions so i think i think the grow the chinese growth will continue for some time but the export factor is is has been mentioned as well i think it is going to come into play again at some point because domestic demand isnt isnt going to be enough to sustain theres other issues facing the chinese economy for example is that its aging quite fast and. Most developed economies are developing economies the idea is to get rich before you get old and china may get old before it gets rich on a broad base level so this is a big factor as well more its a couple of you have mentioned the fact that despite chinas efforts to turn the corona crisis to its Public Relations advantage abroad in fact wariness of china has grown recently and now the fact is that germany has declared a reset on china policy and says it wants to push back much harder for example on human rights issues on the detentions engine zhang of the wars and so on but is it germany arguably even more dependent now on china for growth for exports for being able to sustain its export model than before. Well china. China. In some areas it will be a Growth Engine the general direction of pivoting also away from china looking for other markets in the region i think this is this is a true strategic decision already been made before the cowen a crisis that was started so i think actually this the necessity to actually continue this move in some areas away from china is actually increasing the spite of course in some areas. To cooperate with with china as a Global Player and other areas of course and remaining the same but i think strategically there is a move towards less dependence you from china and looking for other emerging markets in the region which of course let me come back very briefly to our title for one last question and the title of course asked whether china emerges from the corona crisis as an economic winner the fact is china while the rest of the World Languages will account for over 30 percent of the worlds Economic Growth this year and possibly into the near future as well so what do you think will china use that new power its status as winner to help pull other countries out of their own downturn. I am slightly suspicious because i think if you look at it i have to because it depends on Global Economy but i was released on the new strategy that china would like to focus on take stimulation so i think im slightly suspicious of that clifford quick quick answer the same question i think i think it will emerge as an economic winner but i think. I will start with and say one thing we will have to wait and see how the venture plays out as we have to look at what happens in the u. S. Particularly in the coming weeks which we havent really discussed yet so yes a winner but a lot of external factors thank you very much to all of you for being with us for this very interesting discussion and thanks to you out there for tuning in see you soon. Coming. Up the to mop up some of a. Cut. Cut cut. Cut. Cut cut cut. Cut cut. Cut cut cut. Cut. Cut of. The 20 joining us election on to the bank in minneapolis minnesota right here at the memorial site where george was killed just much months ago coming up from a sheer induced time want to control racial bias to police for jealousy for the tomato police or for going to talk to the Police Firemen talk to city council came to lay close medicaments see the story on the w. News. Every day counts for us and for our planet play play live light is on its way to bring you more conservation play how do we make see the screamer how can we protect habitats what to do with all our waste. We can make a difference by choosing Smaller Solutions overstrained said in our place to place google ideas into a series of implosions 1000 on g. W. And ahmad. Heats up session for spectacular pictures plane gets their passion for nature. Playing its their complete devotion that makes them the best wildlife photographer in the world. Fascinating. And playing. Playing confrontational and stirring plays 5 adventures playing one goal. The preservation of our planet. Its got a sinister apartment treason set in kansas anymore. Because thats the danger of surviving an os run through realize that theres a radically different way of living their lives would rather play for china starts november 6th on g. W. This is g. W. News from berlin tonight the final face off trump and joe biden gear up for their last t. V. President ial debate less than 2 weeks to go before the election the u. S. President is trailing his democratic challenger in the polls well find out just whats at stake in tonights showdown also coming out of germany was once the poster child of pandemic policies now its struggling to prevent an uncontrolled spread of the coronavirus this new infections hit record high plus so
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