This excerpt and we can turn it on now and listen, lets turn it on. Iran has long supported hamas and other terrorist networks throughout the region with resources and training bases. In this regard, it is obvious that iran is involved here, but from a specific point of view we have no evidence of such attacks. Iran has long supported hamas and other terrorist networks throughout the region. Training bases, the ukrainian crisis continues, unfortunately, we see a sharp aggravation of the situation in the middle east, i think that many will agree with me that this is a clear example of the failure of the us policy in the middle east, which tried to monopolize the settlement, but unfortunately did not seek compromises for both sides, on the contrary, put forward their own ideas of how it should be done, put pressure on both sides, then on one, then the other, pressure on both sides, precisely on both, then on one, then on the other, well, here we showed not only putin, but also the National Security adviser. On kirby of the United States of america, but if putin is quoted, well, he actually blames what happened in the middle east, the United States of america, well, on that i will say goodbye to you for today, i urge you to subscribe to the Radio Liberty pages on the internet, freedom live will be back on the air tomorrow. Friends, this is the svitoglyad program, my name is vasyl zima and in the next 45 minutes, in the svitoglyad project, we will talk about how under the conditions in which our world and our civilization exist today, democracy can, i would not say win, but worthily resist tyranny and dictatorship, you know that the Parliamentary Assembly of the council of europe, now has to pass a resolution recognizing Vladimir Putin as a dictator. Until now he was not a dictator, but now he must be recognized as a dictator, and in fact, the russian regime will be called a dictatorial regime, and russia will join the circle of those states that are already dictatorial, in particular, we are talking about iran, in particular, we are talking about north korea, i will not talk about china, i have no information about what they have there, what form of government they have there, in any case, i am talking only about those regimes that really exist today have all the signs of dictatorial regimes, these dictatorial regimes have many advantages in terms of how to lead them war against the civilized world, against democracy, against what we call democracies, the absolute lack of control of the government by the people, absolute, absolute freedom to decide one or the other decisions, absolute disregard for the will of the people, the losses suffered by this people in those wars unleashed by dictatorships, absolutely free, absolutely free opportunity to dispose of the finances of that state and the people in which they are, absolutely. Free opportunity to commit acts of terrorism on the territory of any state to which they can reach, that is, they are people who are the personification of evil, who have no warnings, reservations, rules, laws that could restrain them in their introduction of an aggressive war, or is it an information war, is it an economic war, or is it an ordinary war, a hot war , which we see today in ukraine, and the question arises, what about democracies, what about democracies, what is ukraine, what is the United States of america, the countries of the European Union, australia there and many other countries. How can they oppose these dictators, who have a chance of victory, or should we simply abandon these conventions, say that these democratic norms and principles are conventions that prevent us from fighting, and then simply exchange blows, and whoever wins, that will live and say, well, now we are going back to the norms of democracy, we will live according to democratic principles, because again, well, there are principles, for example, in the mobilization of the population, in dictatorial regimes, no one asks how many people need to be mobilized, can destroy, in fact, half of their population, it does not matter to them, there are certain rules, and there is such a. Suspicion or fear that democratic countries, or countries with democratic rules and norms, can the prospect of yielding, globally, to give in to dictators, to give in to tyranny, because they simply wont be able to adequately respond to them and adequately fight this war, because again, if you spend a huge amount of money on war and your population is just begging, it doesnt matter to them at all , he begs, let him beg, well, not like that in a democracy. You can, you have to make sure that there is enough money for everything, because there are certain rules there, and this is a very important topic, and we will talk today after the guests , the first guest that i i invite you to the conversation, this is serhiy gromenko, an expert of the Ukrainian Institute of the future, mr. Serhiy, i welcome you, good afternoon, i made a small conditional introduction to our conversation in order to better explain to people why i chose this topic for our issue, please tell me , can we say today that the war in ukraine started, well already. quite realistically, an era of confrontation, a heated confrontation between dictatorships and democracy in the world of two civilizations, well, in fact, one of which should remain dominant. I wouldnt discount it to the question of civilizations, so as not to switch to some exchange, because then we will have to admit that the russian civilization is, say, something separate, that is, to play along with the russian narrative, or to enter into a discussion about whether it is possible to write china and iran into one civilization, let us stay with in the old terms, with the world of dictatorships and the world of democratic countries, and it is obvious that from time to time they collide and not because there are any special conditions in the countries. Whether the wrong leaders come to power, most likely it is a matter of a certain cycle development, and from time to time dictatorships feel for the strength of democracies, as it happened 2,500 years ago, and 100 years ago, and 70 years ago, and now the time has come, and now to feel whether these democratic countries and their. Democratic norms. Please tell me, the main goal today, if we say , lets say so, right away, who can we write today in this new news of evil, which is being talked about, well, those countries, at least, which are actively participating in the opposition not only to ukraine, but and our western partners. I know that the Parliamentary Assembly of the council of europe has, well, at least there is a resolution that recognizes putin as a dictator and obviously, then it will be possible to say that in the opinion of european politicians, the european political community, putin is a dictator, and the regime is dictatorial, from yes russia is a dictatorial regime, and it will be possible then to refer to a certain official decision of an official body of the European Union, but if we talk now, which countries could be called, or which regimes could be called dictatorial, because i mentioned about north korea, about iran, well , we expect a decision about putin from russia, but i didnt say about china, because i dont know, honestly, i dont know, id like to ask you, look. Gives such that it is much easier to list democratic countries, or at least countries with a regime in political transit to democracy, similar to democracy, and 80 of the population continues to remain in conditions of nondemocratic regimes, frankly tyrannical regimes, so it is correct if we say already , about the axis of evil 2. 0, to take into account a not so internal state, of some sort countries, as a tendency to external aggression, because a dictatorial country that does not encroach on its neighbors, whose dictator is not, is fighting for world domination, and there are even such dictators, well, at least there was one, who really sincerely cared about the development of the underground. Its population, relatively recently, then we will understand that such dictatorships, well, this is the evil that has to be put up with, and moreover, the attempt to democratize the violent, of all dictatorships, on earth, usually leads to other arguments, to completely different results, no matter what arguments or good intentions we come up with, thats why this axis of evil, 2 0, it, and in principle and in fact the americans also voiced it, it seems that the state department has an official list, but we will still look more at real things, the main thing the hegemon of the authoritarian world, nowadays, in the modern world is, of course, china, until relatively recently, there was, well, a mild dictatorship, regular change was expected, rotation of the top management for no more than 10 years, but even then china showed himself not from the best side in relation to, lets say, national minorities, traditionally this is tibet, in recent years the repression against the uyghurs in xinjiang has increased , but relatively recently, breaking the almost 50yearold principle of rotation, the new head of the peoples republic of china xi jinping went for a third term, signifying chinas final transition from soft. To a rigid internal dictatorship, and a rigid internal dictatorship that does not involve rotation, that does not involve an internal position, it usually ends with an increase in tensions on the external direction, well, because thats how its arranged, and besides, in recent years, china has introduced some extremely serious restrictions inside the country, the socalled social rating. Something more reminiscent of the totalitarian dystopias that were spread in the west, so china can certainly be called a dictatorship, and there are fears that sooner or later china will resort to open external aggression, obviously, this axis of evil includes iran and north korea, there were several other countries on the list of the state department, african countries. Some of them have already fallen out, and some it remains, for example, eritrea can be included in this list, north sudan, of course, and now whether we like it or not, russia and belarus have joined this axis of evil, and now they form such a large eurasian arc from the borders of europe. To well, i dont even know, to the south, to the south of the pacific ocean, and because of this axis of evil, obviously the problems around the world have increased, the dictatorships, these dictatorships are looking for support from each other, and unfortunately, as we see, for various reasons, they this support is found in each other, i am now adding to the conversation also igor chlenka, political and economic expert, mr. Igor, i congratulate you. I congratulate you, glory to ukraine, glory to the heroes, but mr. Serhiy and i will speak only until the 30th minute , so i will give you the opportunity to answer one more question now, and you and i, mr. Igor, will start from the 30th , there we will talk until one oclock, well, but in any case, now i will give you the opportunity to say something, i just want to ask mr. Serhii one more question, you know, this is a logical question, well, it is clear that democracy is the rules are also certain, but a person must develop, and democracy is what awakens. Supposedly the whole society and the harmonious Harmonious Development of society, it gives certain fruits and results. Dictatorship is a completely different approach, there is central management, there is a rigid vertical, everything is clear, and people basically there is no development of the strong, science, personality, everything else, everything is somehow centralized. What, if we talk about this war, how putin started it, but i think, from the submission of many of his partners, just ukraine has become a point, a point of application of force on that. Stage in the 22nd year, and what do these dictatorships want, they understand that economically they will not be able to overcome the countries of the west, because they will not be able to have such economic and technological development, so lets just overwhelm them now like this, well, for what, for what you live, democracies live, everyone somehow coexists, why start this clarification of relations, which is the goal, banal money, banal economy, no, the goal of any dictatorship, selfpreservation, and for some time, i will not talk here now. About iran or about china, because these are separate cases, but with regard to russia, there is no doubt, putins power is extremely, strongly tied to the expectations of the people, regarding, lets say, if not greatness, then at least a worthy place for russia in the Foreign Policy arena, and relatively full shelves in stores, Russian Society surviving the 90s. Willingly supports internal antiliberalism in exchange for handouts from the bar table and early putinism since 1999. Until 2008, and then, then more there, this interregnum, medvedev himself, they willingly gave it to the russians, took away their political rights, gave them a little more money , most russians who saw the world, well , at least, at least thailand, they saw it during this period, not before and no later, and perhaps, perhaps, it established a certain kind of, well, no, not a consensus, but lets say this, there is, there was, there was such a Mutual Understanding between the population, the elites and putin, regarding how it should be in the future, but for of late putinism, as we know, this, this stream petrodollars were seriously in need, russia began to gradually creep into an economic crisis, in russia, serious negative changes were taking place on its borders, well, at least thats how the russians imagined it. First of all, i am talking about the ukrainian revolution of dignity, and in these conditions, see, the question of the survival of the regime putin decided to solve in a very simple, as it seemed to him , and amazingly effective way, through external aggression, the great problem of the Great Recession of 2008 in russia was overcome at the expense of of the fiveday war against georgia, very, very it turned out to be effective for Russian Society and almost without any consequences for russia as a state, the problems with the swamp area, problems with the dignity in the ukrainian revolution, managed to be overcome due to the annexation of crimea and the war in donbas, then the invasion of syria , and when in the 20th year , putin again faced the big problem of loss of legitimacy, and economic losses, and demographic losses, due to the pandemic. Due to an unsuccessful transit, well, they decided that an attack on ukraine, the final conquest of ukraine, would be just the perfect solution to all problems, which russia has accumulated, especially since the experience of, say, the eighth or 14th year pushed them to this opinion. I will not say again that it works for all authoritarian countries, but russia wanted to solve its internal problems with the help of war. As we know, this did not happen, and moreover, now the problems of russia. Have become absolutely incurable, and, but putin cannot or does not want to end the war, and how serious is the influence of those states that might also want to have his benefit from the victory of russia, benefit and more, strong positions in the negotiations with the west, does no one expect anything from russia now, there is conditional china, i am not talking about iran now , because the Customs Officials are not waiting, whatever ends, that ends, they will continue to conduct their affairs with the European Union , to trade with the United States of america, to solve issues there, in the china sea or somewhere with taiwan, well, it will have its own history, which they had, why do they still want to make a nuclear submarine, well, they will make their own lives, and what will happen to putin, no one i dont care if there is now some kind of hook that holds this putin in the sense of how to proceed in ukraine, as far as china is concerned, as a senior partner in this axis of evil, and much stronger and wealthier. It is obvious that china cannot even afford to rely on russia 100 , let alone let it float freely and let it burn with all its fire, it would be ideal for china if russia won very quickly, it is extremely unacceptable for china complete rout and especially the collapse of russia, but also the defeat of russia and the current confrontation is also long, china is by no means smiling, that is why china does not open. A direct lendlis for russia, as opened by, lets say, the United States, and putin is forced to negotiate directly with iran, with north korea with chinas permission, but china will not directly participate in this. As for the rest of the authoritarian countries, they have their own expectations, they have their own, they have their own geshefts in this war, especially with regard to iran, but to say that they determine the internal politics in russia, i would did not become in fact, the fact that the war does not end is the problem of one single person, putin. If putin was not afraid that the admission of defeat and the retreat of Russian Troops would not lead to the loss of power, especially in life, as it happened to gaddafi or saddam hussein, he could retreat, but he fears for his life and therefore will continue this war as long as he can. Thank you, mr. Sergey. Grumenko is an expert of the Ukrainian Institute of the future, and in the next part of our program with igor chelenka we will talk about how are there risks for democracy to lose to dictators and is it possible for democracy to become less democratic in order to adequately oppose it, well, let me literally have a minute before we go on a break, it wont be long, mr. Igor, i will make the seed like this , is there a risk of democracy in its ideal form, that is, in its ideal form, to be weaker during the brutal war imposed by the dictatorship today, the risk of losing to the dictatorship, democracy is based on competition, including competition, respectively, authoritarian. Totalitarian regime, and today we have to talk about the competition between democracy and autocracy , which includes various regimes today, and the most important issue here is that democracy does not turn into a simulacrum of itself, because we see that precisely authoritarian, totalitarian regimes, they constantly use democratic tools for authoritarian leaders to come to power, we see it in the Russian Federation, we see it