There were also such possibly curious cases when violators, either on their own, or for the assistance of those persons who promised to help them in illegally crossing the border, they equipped themselves with inflatable boats, inflatable circles, inflatable armbands in the form of ducks, or they are equipped with wetsuits, so news about fugitive men, as i have already said, appears in ukraine almost every day. Obviously, not everyone is detained, as we can now see on the footage, and many men cross the border like this. For example, according to romanian border police, after the start of a fullscale russian invasion, about 11,000 ukrainian men illegally crossed the border with romania, and this is only romania, and it is an exclusively illegal border crossing, and there are also, so to speak, legal loopholes, well, for example, the road system, through which drivers can leave if they are transporting humanitarian aid or cargo for needs. Bzu so, in march, journalists of ngl media published an article in which they stated that they had found hundreds of public organizations and charitable foundations involved in the escape of more than 2,000 men of prewinter age who left through the way for permits from lviv ova and did not return. At that time, according to journalists, such a service, so to speak, cost from three to 500 per person on the black market. How many ukrainian men, both legally and illegally, went abroad and did not. Return, officially ukraine does not announce such statistics, and in fact it is not known whether the state has such statistics. Just a couple of days ago , the advisor of the president s office, mykhailo podolyak, was on our air, and he claimed that there are statistics, but they are not announced. Well, according to eurostat, this the official statistical body of the european union, after the fullscale russian invasion, more than 800,000 men, ukrainian men of conscription age left abroad, some of them illegally, probably the absolute majority of men. Are running away from the war, they do not want to fight, this is a bitter fact for the state, which will wage a war for its existence, some are fleeing at the real risk of their lives, the bodies of 31 drowned people were found in the yew tree i mentioned, these are official data, is there a way out of this situation, we want to talk about this today an extremely complex topic, gennadiy druzenko, a lawyer and public activist, cofounder and head of the first voluntary mobile hospital named after mykola pirogov, joins our broadcast. Congratulations. Good day. Gennady, here is such a simple general question. Explain to me how it happens that, on the one hand, the army and the armed forces have the highest trust rating in the country. On the other hand, people are running away en masse from the army, from subpoenas, and including fleeing abroad, sometimes even risking their lives. Do you have an answer to this question . I think, that these things, on the contrary, are interconnected, that is, this faith in the armed forces, sad or glorious, of course. This is an attempt to delegate, or shift responsibility onto the shoulders of those who wear uniform today, respectively, let the armed forces protect us, let them heroically fight against the russian aggressors, and i will take advantage of this, sit in the rear, or if there is a danger of getting into the armed forces forces, or shall we say more broadly to the Defense Forces, because it is fighting not only with the ssu, but also with the nsu, the sbu. The state border service, respectively, then i will try to escape, but here there is something other than an objective one component, because during any wars there were those who were called deserters, evasions, but also, unfortunately, communication and the authorities, first of all the authorities, and certain methods are absolutely legitimate, such, i would say, russian, with which people are taken away to the army, they too. Contribute, the other thing is that the russians are already great masters here, and they help stir up a whole event from each case, so it is obviously very difficult to fight with the first one. If we are not ready to shoot there, although there was already such a case recently, for those who is trying to cross the border, but with the second one , it is that the subordinates are in power, because, i always remember, it is very unfortunate that from a country where there were endless queues at military bases, in two years we have turned into a country where such arrests just happen, almost wild hunts for mobilized or for those who have. To replenish the army, i will say from my experience at the front, all these people who are dragged into the busik by force, well, it is just trouble for any commander, and i dont know why do, that is, you mean that there is a question, how valuable is the warrior who wants run away from the army or something, he is not just worthless, he creates a whole lot of trouble, that is, in addition to this man, there is someone else who is ready to fight, obviously he will be busy first with issuing his. Refusal to comply with the combat order, then obviously he will be searched if he zch will go, the socalled arbitrarily abandoning the part, that is, if we are not ready, thank god, not ready to set up blocking units, all these tricks with such violent mobilization, that is, when people are simply physically twisted and thrown, well, its naviskamat of course or tsk put tick that they mobi. Throw another person, but such a fighter will be more trouble than good, but you yourself remembered the time when, at the beginning of the fullscale invasion, men returned to ukraine, there, it seems, only in the first weeks there were 140 men, but then there were more , and stood up for the defense of the state, now thousands of men, on the contrary, are fleeing from here, please tell me, and from your point of view, was there any turning point when the situation somehow started . To develop, well, as if a little in the opposite direction, or is it very natural history, and sooner or later we should observe this process anyway . The first turning point was the summer of the 22nd year, when we drove away the invaders from kyiv region, sumy region, chernihiv region, then at the beginning of autumn we expelled them, actually expelled them from karkiv region, and the feeling disappeared that. We came directly to your home, the war is again became far away, somewhere in the south and east, and on the other hand , the turning point was the 23rd year, when our unsuccessful counteroffensive was quite widely covered in the press, as we paid for literally square meters and sometimes kilometers there, probably thousands wounded, maimed and killed by the hundreds, and this has also left its mark in the information society, i myself, unfortunately, know many stories when people were not prepared at all, they simply threw fiftyyear old children with such a subcentenary weight into the assaults without a bulletproof vest, and this is also a bitter truth, that is, you understand, in addition to the fact that we live in the age of social networks and the internet, when everyone has a mobile phone with them, there is a joker on the radio, every fighter, even who does not have a facebook profile, is . There are relatives and friends with whom he communicates, and this wordofmouth radio spreads, that combat commanders do not always use soldiers in the most careful and effective way, and this also had its share, but i repeat, this is not no, well, you are not a bad excuse for dodgers, but advice for the state on how to improve its policy, well, actually about the state, maybe this is a false assumption, my assumption, but it looks like the state prefers not to see. This problem with fugitives, men are caught, they are fined, they are filmed, their faces are covered, at some point it is even there, sometimes it looks comical when they disguise themselves as women there, but if we talk about some kind of Global Solution to this problem, and this, and whether there is any solution at all to solve this problem and what it might consist of, well, it can only consist of an agreement, well, or we put it as in the soviet union, which is still wonderful. I remember there the barbed wire and machine gun turrets that just shoot at targets, then of course, then we are not a european state, then it turns out, you know, well, then we become very similar, you asked in what ways, yes, we become very similar to russia, but again, it is unfortunate, but we admit that there is no forced mobilization in russia now, that is, it works faster than a stick, and on the other hand, with those. We need to negotiate if we want to be, as you said, a european state , we need to negotiate with our western partners, because they accept these fugitives, which means they recognize them as legitimate. Illegal crossing of the border, and i do not know of cases when these evaders were returned to ukraine, and this is again a matter of our diplomacy, because you just called figure, how many ukrainian men illegally found themselves in romania, 11,000 crossed the border to romania alone. Well, i give my head to the youth that even 10 thousand of them were not extruded back to ukraine. So, this is a question for the authorities, first of all for our ministry of foreign affairs, for diplomacy, and why those who are considered illegal fugitives in our country, they are considered refugees, or persons who need special protection there in the european union, that is, this issue must be agreed, because some here the puzzles dont fit together, and how to coordinate, i just didnt fully understand, really give requests for extradition, its simple, its just going to be a huge number of such people. But eurostat says there are about 800 thousand, but it seems that without great britain, without the United States, there are people who left there for the first time, especially during the weeks of the war , well, legally, that is, they crossed the border, thats all of them together, im talking about those who today are completely illegal, that is , who, relatively speaking, do not have passport control, and do you think the state knows them by name, is it possible to track it, no, well, look, of course you can, its an exchange. Data between the border services, the Border Guards know each other very well, that is, inside and out, and once a month, relatively speaking, they check the list of those, this is an electronic database, it is not necessary to raise a finger, and we can absolutely see how many people have appeared there in romania, in poland, i dont know, in moldova, and they didnt pass the Border Control in ukraine, here are those who crossed the border illegally, if they wish, that is, with assistance. Our partners, it is done quite simply, that is, especially since again, that is, you appealed according to the data of the romanian Law Enforcement officers, that 11,000 illegally crossed the border, that is, they know about it, so it is necessary to agree that this illegality is also recognized as illegality, that is, such men are simply put in a bus and returned, transported to the checkpoint and handed over to the ukrainian side, for some reason this. Happens and it naturally encourages people, because there is such a very cynical proverb, there is a way out of prison, but not out of the grave, here we do not even have criminal liability for illegal border crossing, only administrative well, you described the scenario that could happen if other states were to be involved so that they would return the men there, and what can ukraine do, or can it do anything at all, so that the men dont just run away like that. Brutal, well, well , realistically, some of them risk their lives, they die in the mountains, they die in the rivers, but they still prefer to take a risk and run away. Look, there is, in fact, such a cynical approach, but sometimes cynicism can be considered a healthy pragmatism, these people are paying now from 5,000, but you have sounded the numbers, i i know from my relatives that 58 to 10, although the last number after the entry into force of this law on mobilization, as it is called, they say that the numbers increased to 16. Well , listen, well, a person who is ready to pay 10 thousand, thats how much 40, 400 thousand, 400 thousand hryvnias we have, well, then its better for him to pay in the treasury, get there, i dont know, not for a years delay, for half a year, that is, in the end, at least this money will work for the army, because we know that, again, from official information, now even ukraine. The militaryindustrial complex produces three to four times more weapons and munitions than the state can buy. And these people, believe me, who are ready to die in a fight, but you wont make a fighter out of them. You can make meat cannons out of it, if you set it up as a grand detachment, as the wagnerites did, say, during the bahamud operation, but then what are we fighting for if we are ready to become like them . And tell me, please, well, its really useless to hope , i dont really believe in it, but its possible. I am mistaken, that there is a certain part of ukrainians there, or a larger part of ukrainians will come back willingly. By the way, we even track this by the number of people who download the reserve plus mobile application abroad, it seems that there were 1,700 downloads in poland as of yesterday, Something Like 1,300 in germany, but again, to Global Solutions, and what can be a Global Solution, there is a war going on in ukraine, ukraine needs the military, ukrainians themselves are fleeing from ukraine, i dont know, it is possible to change the migration legislation and, relatively speaking, give away citizenship for the opportunity to be drafted into army, is this also not a solution, in fact, this question has long been answered in the United States. A country where 330 million, i. E. 10 times more than in ukraine, during the afghan and iraq war also lacked people who were ready to sign contracts and go fight for the United States somewhere over the ocean, and that in iraq and afghanistan at a certain stage, more socalled mercenaries fought, or they call them contractors, it is time to legalize private military campaigns, and here. You have many advantages, i. E. Pension payment, recruitment, education, it is no longer the states concern, it is the concern of those who do business on it, i will give you an example, i myself met, and we treated, rescued, there are quite a lot of colombians fighting in the lebanese direction, believe me, they do not have any love across ukraine to ukraine, for them it is simply a decent salary, and these fighters know what they are fighting for, they fight well, despite the fact that they do not know a single word of ukrainian or even english, that is. Here you go the answer, that is, why nepalis fight for russia, because they need them money, unfortunately, if we do not want to advance in the direction of autocracy, yes, the chinese regime, or especially the north korean one there, can mobilize millions and millions of citizens, in ukraine we obviously need to look for other philosophical approaches, because i repeat, i saw people who were caught on the street, in straw, there they conducted the vvk, brought them and then the commander refused them, they kept them like that in a circle. Drove a bus until he found someone who needed it, well, if only there were those who did not care about their soldiers, so you have to look for those who want to fight, in ukraine has obviously run out of them, it is necessary to face this truth, because to put a single point in the information that a person is already mobilized, we need, not the one who will die on the front, but the one who will kill the invaders as effectively as possible, defend our land, or vacate your land. And here we need to reconsider our attitude to the pmc, at least another answer from the world experience, i dont know, in ukraine they are ready to take this step, well , maybe from what you see and hear, actually, i am the president of the pdmsha of ukraine, yes , well you you communicate with the military, maybe with the military leadership, now i will tell you an example, now we are discussing with the military and Political Leadership, because the pdsma already in terms of the number of patients, in terms of the number of motor vehicles. Long ago it outgrew the size or scope of the volunteer initiative and became a private military a medical company, that is, we do not carry weapons, and i am now trying to convince our generals, well , a patient with us is three times cheaper than in the armed forces, we have better equipment, if we have, well, there is not a single deserter, but we are not ready to say, on alas, this is so soviet consciousness that a soldier. It should be someone whose life and health are at the complete disposal of the commander. If you are not ready to talk about the medical unit, which a priori cannot create any problems, then obviously, although we say that we are going west, but i gave you the example of our main strategic partner, the United States, that is, we remain much more similar mentally to russians with such a buglike attitude towards soldiers, unfortunately, this is the bitter truth, and therefore again. Will to drown in the tide, the corrupt will receive, the corrupt and scoundrels will receive tens of thousands, but if there were millions of dollars even there, if this money were put into the budget and mercenaries were hired for it, there are many poor countries in the world for which 2300 dollars is a lot of money, lets think in this direction, because an unmotivated fighter is a bad fighter, by the way, this thesis was also voiced by our colleague on the air. Journalist stanislav osieev, who also joined the army, and he said that when you are in the trenches unmotivated fighters, even if there are a lot of them, it is a tragedy because you cannot rely on them, yes, that is why i repeat, again, the state was so generous, it was obviously also preparing for a short war, that now those 15 million, which must be paid to the deceased, led to the fact that there is obviously a lack of money in the treasury, that is, there is a careless. Instruction to keep the deceased in the status of missing persons as much as possible, so this is another way out, because you agreed with the pmc, and this is further insurance, payment, nonpayment, this is all the problem of your contractor, because this contractual relations, to what extent, how to control them, this is a good question, and prigozhins rebellion says that sometimes the pmcs get out of control, but i repeat, if the americans succeeded, and we hope. Still, that we will become western, obviously it is necessary to control the size and those key weapons, for example, hymers or there tanks, just do not hand over the planes to the pmk, because there is a lot of other work. And i am not a military person, that is, again, but i think that the military and, in particular, our strategic partners, the americans, have enormous experience and even a readym