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an awful lot like the mafia. >> and that is for a jury, a kind of close crystal clear piece of evidence. >> i've represented gangsters, there are a lot more vague than that on the phone. >> even if it's not mafioso top, or whatever, that is not a president of the united states. it is a candidate for office. it is an interval who's running for office. this question of moving into federal court, rick requires him acting in his capacity as president. where the president ends and the man begins, the canada begins, in the presidents, is blurry. the court is gonna have to sort that out i don't think it's entirely cut and dry, given amount of evidence. >> jamie, i want to leave a moment here for you rudy giuliani, who's all over this indictment as well. he is being charged, in a rico statute, which he basically pioneered. then, on top of, that we hear today, that he's basically broke. his legal fees are piling up. what has happened to the man once known as america's mayor? >> he said today, he hasn't changed.