Treat them as equals. The west had very racist policies towards asia 50, 100 years ago. But japan and china really struggled to treat each others, each other as equals. You know, lends itself to an extremely antagonistic relationship. Glor we continuing with Michael Schmidt who broke the story of the boston red socks use ang apple watch to steal opponents hand signals. The yank yees knew that something was going on so they were trying to take every measure that they could to stop it, to stop them from doing that. And thats part of the thing. Is the catcher telling its pitcher, look, this is the second sign, it will be the fifth sign i put down, the catcher is putting down stealing signs. But what you cant have is people with electronics in the dugout. And thats what seemed to help the red sox here. Glor north korea, a new method of stealting home and an update on Robert Muellers investigation, next. Rose funding for charlie rose is provided by the following bank of america, life better connected. And by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Glor good evening, charlie rose is on assignment today, im jeff glor of cbs news. The escalating conflict with north korea has cast a spotlight on the shifting Power Dynamics in asia. China and japan remain an ever present competition even as china has passed japan as the regions dominant power. Chinas growing power also calls fa question the u. S. future influence in asia. Richard mcgregors new book considers the complex relationship between these three countries t is called asias reckoning. Richard mcgregor joins me now from washington. We are pleased to have him back on this program. Good to see you. Thanks for having me, jeff, terrific to be here. Glor you talk a lot, richard, about the concept of past american blanca how do you define that today and is it over . Not over yet. I guess let me define it first, it is really america as both the dominant power in east asia since the Second World War and also the sort of policymaking power in asia since the Second World War. I mean let may give you an example. Its quite remarkable that 70 years after the war the u. S. Still has troops in south korea, it still has troops in japan. It has troops in australia, it has all sorts of facilities in thailand, singapore, the philippines and the like. Thats past americana, this interwoven sort of set of security guarantees that the u. S. Provides for asia, east asia and has provided for 70 years. I guess linked up with the Economic System that the u. S. Has built since the Second World War or lead since the Second World War and built along with europe, which is basically built around open markets and rules. Rules of the road. For trade, for security, for the high seas and the like. Glor were 100 years now removed from world war 1, all of this still comes back to world war ii though doesnt it. It does. This is the legacy of world war ii t is the legacy of the u. S. Victory over japan in world war ii. A fight, by the way, the u. S. Was allied with china in. And it all flows from there. And when the u. S. To go back to the 50s returned sovereignty to japan in the 19 50s, it did so while disarming it, and basically taking over Japanese Foreign policy for many decades. And it also did so by forming alliances with all sorts of other countries, the philippines, australia and the like which feared japan. And all those alliances basically you know, survive today. Glor im not sure there is a more interesting inner country relationship in other than maybe the u. S. And russia, than japan and china. Talk a little bit about the history between these two countries and how it got to where it is today. I mean for me this is fascinating, jeff. And its really why i wrote the book. I lived for a long time in both countries and i was always interested in their relationship. For example, i was in a book shop last night and it occurred to me if you go into most book shops in the states for example there is a Cottage Industry of books on the u. S. And china, the u. S. And middle east. You go to the u. K. There is a similar Cottage Industry of books on the u. K. And france, and franls and germany 6789 but theres very little on japan and china. And this is a highly quengs relationship with the worlds second and third biggest economies. Asias two superpowers. And with a really difficult emotional scared history. You know, where one considered the china considered itself to be japans big brother. It fell behind japan, was brutally invaded by japan, and really only, you know, in the last 10, 20 years out of the last 150 years china is getting back on top again. The funny thing about these two countries, they have always demanded the west quite rightly treat them as equals. The west had very racist policies towards asia, 50, 100 years ago. But japan and china really struggled to treat each other as equals. And you know t lends it self to an extremely antagonistic relationship. Glor for most of that history china has been or was the big brother. They were the big brother, you know, the so called sino sent rick order in asia but if you talk to the japanese they will say well, we were never really the little brother and were never going to be the little brother, were japan, were not anybodys vassal state. And they claim that, you know, many people in japan think that chinas mindset is to return to this form of the sino sent rick order in asia in which china is the central, the middle kick dom, so called, and everybody else is a form of tri beu tear state which china allowed to get on with their lives as long as they are nice to china and pay some form of obedience to them. And the japanese say well, we are never like that and were never going to be like that. And theyre determined to stand their ground. Glor you can talk por about the scars that remain, you know, maybe even deepened at times with discussions over what apologies should be made over world war ii. Yeah, this is a really complex, fractured area which you dont pick up the sensibilities from the day to day headlines of japan demands, china apologize sorry china demands japan apologize for the war. And japan says well, weve apologized, this, that and the other and the like there is to doubt that chinese propaganda about japan against japan works because it is based on true facts, facts. In other words, japan did brutally invade china. They killed many people there was a massacre. Et cetera, et cetera. But immediately after the war, for the decades after the war china never asked japan for an official apology. They never wanted to talk much about the massacre. It simply wasnt a priority for them. But once they started to become more powerful, once they thought that they wanted the respect that they thought should be accorded to them, that is when they started talking about history more. And japan was very unprepared for that, japan thought they sort of settled all those issues. And japan struggles to have any form of introa speks about history. So i havent so much written about the history wars. Ive written the history of the history wars. And once you look at it from that perspective you will see that its really a matter of internal politics in both countries. And that is how i have approached it. Glor so much of this goes back to 1937. What happened in nanjing. Well there was a retreat by Chinese Nationalist forces. The japanese were advancing and invading and they committed an orgy of killings both of civilians and retreating soldiers. There is a great dispute about how many people exactly were killed. In some respects, i dont think that matters too much one way or another. The chinese say 300,000 which they get from a war crimes tribunal after the war. There is a respectable japanese, or debate amongst historians that says it was far fewer than that, but there is also unfortunately e faction in japan which denied it happened at all. And i think that thoroughly discredited it, but sadly it lives on in japanese politics. So post world war ii one country does a better job at modernizing and appreciating technology. Absolutely. You might remember that when you were growing up, you know, the number one threat to the u. S. In the late 80s, early 90s was japan, or considered to be such. When japan was buying up all sorts of landmarks like the Rockefeller Center in manhattan and the Pebble Beach Golf Course and the like. This was considered to be a form of tech nonationalism. And u. S. Japan trade wars which really went on from the 50s, about three, four decades, really culminatedded in action by the u. S. Against japan on semiconductors. And its once japan sort of faded as an economic threat, we kind of forgot about what an intense period that was. But in fact it is precisely what is happening with china now, but with one very important difference. The u. S. Was always a security ally of the u. S. Sorry, japan was always a security ally of the u. S. , hence that sort of helped mediate the trade differences. China is a deadly geo political rival of the u. S. And that is going to make the trade issues much harder to handle, i think. Glor you forget about the threats, i think a lot of people forget about the threat that a lot of people felt from the japanese economy, in particular. That economy in the 80s, that economy remains as big as it is, remains stagnant to a large extent today. How does that factor into the japanese chinese relationship . You know, to be fair, the japanese have done better than people think. Theyve got a bigger problem than just sort of, you know, increasing economic productivity. They do do that but theyve now got a diminishing population. They are losing 250,000 people a year. Theyre going to go from about 120 million now to 90 million in 20 years. So not only do they feel that they have lost their advantage against china as an economy, you know, theres a big sort of psychic turn around, it was only 20, 30 years ago that japan was on top. And in the space of a couple of decades thats really flipped. The chinese economy has grown 10 a year for 30 years. The last 20, 25 years as you mentioned the japanese economy has grown at about 1 percent. So they feel a bit very, sort of aggrieved by the turning of the tables. And it doesnt make for a sort of psychologically healthy relationship. They both have aging populations, right . They do, actually am one of the funny things about the so called pacific century, really at the dawn of it right now, is that every country in east asia has terrible demographics. Japan may be the worst, or they are just first into it. China does as well because of the one child policy. South korea does, tie want does. So the problems that japan has now with demographics, china is going to have in spades in ten or 20 years. And that without going, switching the conversation, actually will help the u. S. Glor so but trade continues to thrive between japan and china. This is more of a political discussion were having. It is. I mean its one reason, i guess, the japanese chinese bilateral phase is one of the biggest two way relationships in the world, first, second or third. Not only that its investment. Japanese Car Companies, like. Is Car Companies have enormous sales in china and china represents the future for them. Its the same for Japanese Technology companies. Its Japanese Companies which provide all the sort of factory goods when they build new factories in china. So that is really the anchor of the relationship. And its really one reason why for all their tension, for all the fact that their navys face off around the East China Sea almost every day or month, the relationship has never gone off the rails. Because theyre both deeply pragmatic countries. And i done think they want to have a fight because its far too damaging. Glor do you believe that war between these two countries is a possibility in the future . St a possibility. I mean i havent written a book saying the coming war between japan and china 689 weve had a mult teud of books with the title the coming war between so and so and so and so. And i havent written that because i didnt want to exaggerate the possibilities of military conflict. But having said that the chances of some sort of conflict let alone a war are now higher than they used to be. And i guess the trigger point is their disputed territories in the East China Sea, this sort of few small islands which has become symbolic of their geo political competition. And in 2012 when japan for various reasons changed the status of those islands, its my understanding and i talk about this in the book, that the chinese actually did consider at the time whether they should take military action to make their point or regain the islands. And one reason they didnt is very interesting, two reasons, obviously. You know, the chinese are still building their military up. Japan has a formidable naval, natchal force and air force but most important, china has to be sure of viblght ree. Because if japan lost a bat toll china then the japanese government would fall and there would be a national shame, et cetera, et cetera. But if china lost a battle against japan again, with the communist partys press teej online, that is kind of regime change. So china has to be sure of winning in and in some respects thats one reason why they wont fight. Who is more, in your estimation who is more responsible for stoaking fears for stoaking problems over these disputed islands. Well, you are putting me on the spot there. And the vossive russ nationalists from both sides watching this will no doubt pour in to attack me but i mean i dont want to sit on the fence. I will say first of all there is obviously fault on both sides. Japan handles history problems terribly, at the top of the government in japan including the prime, they have been revisionists on history and have resisted making amends for what happened a long time ago. That is definitely a problem. But i think the problem is bigger in china in this respect. You know, china is a single party authoritarian country. They do not have free speech in the way that we understand free speech. Its very difficult in china with that sensibility against japan for politicians or anybody really to stand up and call for a much more open debate about japan not being an enemy of japan. And not only that but in the early 90s when the chinese started this sort of patriotic, intense patriotic education, the system of education in their primary schools and high schools and the like, japan was the number one target. So for all of japans faults and there are many, i think its the chinese propaganda system which drives really veement antijapanese sentiments in china and once they start winding that up, its very difficult to wind it back. And i think thats at the core of the problem we have these days. Glor are the grudges carried mostly by the older generation or does this cross demographics . Well, thats a very good question, you know. And it often seems in china it is like the balance cans. All these young people have great memories of wars that they never experienced. There is no dowlt that many elderly Chinese People have living memories, less and less so now of japanese atrocities and japanese creelty. I think that was very important in the 80s and 90s when the policy started to change. But these days it strangely seems to be younger people who feel most intensely about japan. And i think thats, for a number of reasons, the Education System which i talked about before, and i think also the fact that the japan is one area that they can speak out on and express their patriotism, they can take to the streets about, you know, theres not many things you are allowed to hold a street protest on in china. But protesting against japan is one of them. And i think a lot of sort of disgrunlt eled people disgruntled people channel their antigovernment or antiestablishment sent nment china, they channel into antijapanese protests and it kind of builts from there. Glor brent scoa croft once called japan probably he said i dont think we understand the japanese people, i dont think they understand us. Has anything changed . That was during my research for the book and i came across that. It is quite remarkable. The u. S. And japan have a very close relationship, particularly a very close security relationship. The pentagon and the japanese military. But i think we have forgotten, and this is of the trade wars we talked about before, how ditch a relationship this has been for a long time, an many different u. S. Officials did not like dealing with japanese. Henry kissinger is a prime example, james baker, brent scoacroft, brent skocroft is the consummate u. S. Security professional, a hardened realist, somebody without dealt with all sorts of dictators and democrats around the world. And for him to say that the hardest people to deal with were the japanese, i found quite startling but it was also very telling about the problems that this alliance has often experienced. Glor so if you are the United States today, and first of all you appreciate the extraordinarily complicated relationship between china and japan, than how do you approach the pacific theat sner. Well, thats the 64 Million Dollar question. The u. S. It is a very difficult balancing act. If the u. S. Muscles up in asia as some would like it to do, it runs the risk of precipitating conflict. And in fact getting ahead of its asian allies which want the u. S. To be there to keep the peace, to be a con sill yaiter, a balancer but not necessarily fight wars. But if the u. S. Withdraws and leaves a vacuum, that is potentially even more damaging for Asian Countries because if the u. S. Does leave any kind of vacuum, then china will fill it. China has already sort of got this sort of sal ami slicing policy in east asia in the south china sea, the East China Sea, have gradually accumulating influence in such a way that st hard for the u. S. To pushback. So i think the u. S. , at the core of what the u. S. Has to do, that is, as long as the u. S. Is committed to its position in asia is to strengthen alliances, that is the most impor