Richest company in the world. Right. But i would stop short of saying its a transformational product, to switch it. Its not a drastic change from what it is and its going to be better to use, it has a bigger, sharper screen, the face recognition, other things that we can talk about. I like that its going to have a better battery life, but its an iphone. Its not drastically different than the ones that came before. Its a pretty good upgrade. Rose we conclude with part 2 of our conversation with steve bannon. Tonight the transition and the agenda for the Trump Administration. In the 48 hours after we won, theres a fundamental decision that was made. You might call it the original sin of the administration, if you refer to some people on the right, and you saw it that night in the acceptance speech when decision because you had to staff a government. To be brutally frank, the campaign look, i had never been on a campaign any entire life. Im a former investment banker, a media guy running a little web site. Our whole campaign was a little bit the island of misfit toys. Im wearing my combat jacket, havent shaved, my hair is down to here, and hes saying i have to put together a government, i have to staff out something, i need to embrace the establishment, and we did. Rose north korea, apple and a conversation with steve bannon when we continue. Rose funding for charlie rose has been provided by the following and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Rose we turn to north korea, relations between the United States and that country have been fraught since the end of the korean war in 1953. The last several months have seen an escalation in tensions as north korea ramps up its Nuclear Program the Administration Responded with increasingly forceful language. Following north koreas sixth and Largest Nuclear test the United Nations voted this week to step up sanctions against the kim jong un regime. Many feared that a violent confrontation is increasingly likely. Joining me now from washington is evan osnos. He recently traveled to pyongyang on assignment for the new yorker magazine. His report offers a require inside look at north korea. He writes, in 18 years of reporting i never fault as much as uncertainty at the end of a project, a feeling nobody, not the diplomats, the strategists or scholars who have do de voted their lives to the subjects is able to describe with confidence how the other side thinks. I am pleased to have evan osnos back ton this program. Welcome. Thanks very much, charlie. Rose tell me who was on the trip, the purpose and plan . This trip began a few months ago really with the idea that we said we have to get there. We have to go to north korea to try to understand whats going on on the ground and they dont of course have diplomatic relations with the United States so you cant go to an embassy in washington. You can use the new york channel, an informer office that exists within the north Korean Mission to the u. N. , consists of a couple of diplomats who, in effect, manage relations with the United States, and i contacted them and i said, wed like to come, and they said, its going to take a while, and it took about five months. But by august, we had made an arrangement for me to go with a photographer named max pinkers and an assistant and the three of us went in on august 14. It happened to be this was a couple of days after donald trump had tweeted that the United States was, as he put it, locked and loaded for a potential confrontation with north korea. Rose so when you got there, what happened . Well, when i got there, they very clearly had app message that they wanted to send the rest of the world. This was not a casual choice on their part to allow an individual reporter. They typically allow reporters in large groups to come, but manage an individual reporter who is interested in talking about the the Nuclear Program they do less frequentsly. What they wanted to world to understand in effect, what they wanted me to understand over and over they said it was that they will not give up their Nuclear Program. If there was ever a point where they might have been willing to bargain that away for the sake of other elements of a diplomatic relationship, they believe that moment has passed and thats important because, at the moment, the United States fundamental strategy is predicated on the ultimate ambition t of trying to get north korea to give up its Nuclear Program. Rose why does it want a Nuclear Program . This is a key question, a source of tremendous debate. They say they want it for selfdefense. As the north korean officials told me, their leader kim jong un does not want to end up like Muammar Gadhafi or saddam hussein, two leaders that gave up Nuclear Weapons at the request of the United States and both removed from office and executed. Rose not by the United States. But they talk about it openly. In the case of Muammar Gadhafi, he gave up his weapons in 2003. George w. Bush said let this be a lesson to other countries that they, too, can find a better path to the United States. In 2011, the United States and n. A. T. O. Joined in assisting of the overthrow of gadhafi regime that led to his execution and thats what theyre very conscious of. Another element, which is important because the white house is concerned about it, which is in fact they do achieve selfdefense, do they go further around try to reunify with south korea or use the weapon to cry try to coerce the United States to reduce presence on the peninsula. Thats a debate going on now. Rose kim jong un is a leader. Is he is a rational leader . This is the crucial question, charlie. This is the question american intelligence analysts and analysts in beijing and seoul are struggling with. I traveled to beijing, seoul, spent a lot of time in washington, the idea of a lot of people is he is rational, can be dealt with. They dont believe he is mad or out of control. What they believe is that he is protecting his National Interests in the way he thinks he should, but that, at the moment, is putting him on a trajectory towards confrontation with the United States. A key point that i think gets lost is when we look at what hes doing we see him moving down this path of greater and greater tension with the u. S. , but there have been moments along the way where he has shown himself to be capable of restraint. Rose what else do they know about him . He began as a very mysterious figure. When he took power in 2011 the u. S. Knew almost nothing about him. Sue terry, senior c. I. A. Analyst at the time, said they had little more than a single photograph of him at 11 years old. Since then, quite a bit. He proved to be a skillful tactician and some is brutal. North korean politics is a very brutal business and he has gone after senior officials, removing them from power in ways that solidify his control. He is very much as a u. S. Official put it to me last week in control of the country, hes the top decider, this official said he is the one that matters. The notion he is a figurehead or somehow not running the country is not valid. He is in fact very much in control now. Rose he obviously has brought that country closer to Nuclear Weapons than his father or obviously his grandfather. I mean, he must have some skill to be able to do what he has done, no matter how ruthless it has been. Yeah, thats right. One of the things hes done that surprised american analysts is hes been willing to tolerate public failure in some cases. There have been, as we know, a number of tests, a number of missile launches, which have failed. In an earlier generation, they would have covered it up and pretended it never happened. Early on from his ton yore, he began to let it be known scientists would allow it to fail. The only way to have progress is backtoback tests and developing the program more broadly and deeply and accelerated progress that exceeded projections of american analysts. Theyre at a point where we thought way would be within five or ten years. I think one of the things we have to keep in mind is whether or not he is willing to compromise. This is something his father was able to do. Kim jong un, you know, as much as he was an eccentric and very much a provocative figure, was constantly playing against the United States in a way he would provoke and get to the negotiating table, provoke and get back to the table. Kim jong un so far has not shown he has the ability to know when its time to sit down. Thats what americans are waiting for now. In the white house they are waiting for a signal from north korea that its time to negotiate. Rose do we know whether he in fact in the end would like to see korea unified . Theres no question he would. This has been the driving ambition of the of his country ever since his grandfather founded it is to try to reunify the Korean Peninsula, and the question is whether hes willing to use force to do it, or is this just an abstract goal over the horizon. The analogy is like taiwan and main land china. Taiwan is something beijing talks about all the time and they aspire to reunify the country but theyre not willing to take steps tomorrow to do it. Thats gives the u. S. Reasons to deal with china and can be more comfortable. Same question with north korea. If kim jong un is in the broader sense still committed to reunification, thats okay. The South Koreans want unification as well but the u. S. Will not relinquish support for south korea by removing troops or removing itself from that alliance, so they have to be tting themselves up for the day when they discover north korea sought to reinvade south korea. I think the view broadly felt is he is probably most likely looking for selfdefense here. He is not looking for the conditions by which he could reinvade south korea middle east and that means there may be opportunity to come up with an accommodation. Rose you say in the second part of the quote that i began, we simply dont know how kim jong un really regards the use of his countrys Nuclear Arsenal or how north koreas seclusion and mythology distorted its understanding of american resolve. We dont know whether kim jong un is taking even greater risks because he is determined to fulfill his familys dream of retaking south korea or because he is afraid of ending up like gadhafi. We do not know. And that was one of the Amazing Things about being there, to be honest, is that you get a sense everywhere you go that they are thinking and talking about their weaponry. Its on every billboard, its on the television when youre watching it at lunch. Government officials mention it to you constantly. They say we have now achieved the ability to meet the United States head to head, toe to toe, if we need to. And what that means is that we need to understand now, ultimately, what are they prepared to do . Are they actually going to press the button . The answer from my impression, from being there and talking to a range of government officials is they have no illusions, they dont believe that they could get into a war with the United States and ultimately survive it, but they are scared at the moment. Frankly, they are disconcerted by the fact that the u. S. President is talking about fire and fury. Theyre confused by the number of voices coming out of washington. They hear general mattis, they hear National Security advisor h. R. Mcmaster, they hear Rex Tillerson and they hear from donald trump, and theyre not sure whether the United States is actually preparing a preventative war. The risk here is if north korea gets the impression that the u. S. Is prepared to attack, then north korea may in fact do something that would be hugely selfdestructive but also could take a lot of lives elsewhere. So its important for the u. S. To send a clear message that thats not our goal that were not seeking to attack north korea if it can be avoided. Rose i havent mentioned it, but its ever present, the ep up they could persuadewould north korea, at least to freeze their Nuclear Program if not do Something Else that would reduce the fear of the United States. I think chinas position on this is evolving slowly but in important ways. As you know, they have been very reluctant to do anything. They have been reluctant to put pressure on pyongyang. They are afraid of collapsing the regime. They dont want north Korean Refugees coming over the border and they dont want american troops taking over the Korean Peninsula in the event of a collapsed state. Rose evan osnos, thank you so much. My pleasure, charlie. Rose back in a moment. Stay with us. Rose apples widely anticipate event took place today in california. Apple unveiled new models for the iphone 8 and 8 and introduced the iphone 10, marks the anniversary of apples original iphone launch and will sell for 1,000. The first iphone revolutionized a decade of technology and changed the world in the process. Now, ten years later, it is only fitting that we are here in this place on this day to reveal a product that will set the path for technology for the next decade. Rose the screen display uses facial Recognition Software to unlock. Introduced apple wide series 3. Steven levy editorinchief of backchannel, Henry Blodget c. E. O. Of business insider, emily chang of bloombert technology. Emily, set the scene. It was pretty powerful. You can see the steve jobs theater bind me and the site is breath taking. Multistory glass walls, spening elevators, you walk four stories deep into the theater itself and they open todays presentation with the voice of steve jobs, they played an audio recording of steve talking about what it means to make wonderful products and share them with the world, share them with humanity. His wife was in the audience and then tim cook came on stage and took a moment to remember steve. He actually got a little choked up, he got a little bit emotional talking about how he misses steve every day but he said today is not just a day to look back at steve but today is perhaps the first day we can start thinking about steve with happen necessary. This is the beginning of a new decade, a new generation of technology for apple, for the iphone, so some very poignant words from tim cook inside the steve jobs theater today. Rose do you see it as the beginning of something new . I think the moment is such and i think what it is is a substantial upgrade to the phone which is probably the most popular product of this century, that iphone, its transformed the company there. Rose the Richest Company in the world. Right. But i would stop short of saying its a transformational product, you know, to switch it. Its not a drastic change from what it is and its going to be better to use, a bigger screen, a sharper screen, its got the face recognition, other things we can talk about. Its going to have a better battery life. Its the iphone. Its still not drastically different than the ones that came before. Its a pretty good upgrade. Rose what do you think . Steves right. It is an incremental upgrade. A lot of people will buy it. Its going to be a spectacular phone. Its basically a bodily app pen damage at this point. That much of a price increase, a lot of people will say its worth it to have the latest. Rose it will not deter, the price. Some. One of the key points of apple is they have a wonderful range of option in the iphone. You can spend 400 to 1,000 depending on what youre getting and if you get the big full featured version its probably more than that. So you have a good range of price points and an offering for a lot of the market, what tim was talking about and steve and the reference to the next generation, apple campus was a spectacular designed when they unveiled it and the theater is amazing. Earlier this year i did a big story for wired about the campus and got tours from tim cook and johnny ive and i was really struck by how much they referred to stephen there. For the last few years they have been trying to avoid saying what would steve have done and this is something steve would have loved. Rose steve told tim cook you should not ask yourself consistently what would i have done. You are on your own. With the campus they made it an exception in part because the last couple of years of his life steve spent a lot of time working on this campus so they were going from his plans in great part and he handed it over to johnny. Rose thats different than saying what would steve have done. Its one thing to remember and to live in the building that he visualized, its another thing to simply constantly second guess yourself and say what would steve done. The products, they havent done that. Some people wish they had in some of them. Were still waiting for the first big totally new products from apple. I know there are some in the works maybe we could talk about. Rose definitely want to talk about that. Going back to emily about the watch. Theres a new watch and also apple tv. Emily, tell us about that. They unveiled an apple tv settop box compatible with 4k, you need a 4k tv to use it. A small number of people do. They demonstrated some of the 4k on the screen, it is much crisper. They talked about t