The house who is increasingly losing her grip on the leadership of her conference. And hawkish Foreign Policy. Why not bring the troops you do not end a war by withdrawing from the battlefield. Many think shes just Getting Started and coulbe the first republican madam speaker or the next senator from wyoming. What does liz cheney say now . Firing lineth wiargaret hoover is made possible by. Additial funding is provided by. Corporate funding isrovided by. Representative liz cheney, welcome to firing line. Great to be here, margaret. Thank you for having me. Ght. Ts a de you came to prominence i think first this country defending your dad, Vice President dick cheneys reputation in the context of the Obama Administration. But you yoself had served in the state department in the Bush Administration. U have also followed you fathers footsteps to the house of representatives, where you have the same job that he d as conference chair. Yeah. Which makes you the highestranking republican woman in history in the house of representatives. Youre also one of the partysst ngest voices on Foreign Policy and national security. And its not a theme that new to you. I delighted in discovering that you wrote your clege thesis on president ial war powers. Were going that far back . [ laughs ] tell me, as you look at the nationalsecurity position of the United States today, do you believe that were safer today than we were 2 1 2 years ago when President Trump was elected . Well, i think theres no question. I think ifou look at the world that President Trump inherited, it was rlly a world where president obama and those around him had decided that the problem in the worldas america and that we needed to somehow limit america, and he took sps to tie americas hands, and i would say, for example, when youook at the Iranian Nuclear accord. That was an ample of a fituation where he really did give tremendous be to the iranians, including cash, that they used to further their terrorist aims and purposes, and so President Trump inherited a situation where a lot of rebuilng was necessary, and hes done that. So, people will hear you say that, and theyll also look at the headlines today, and the headlines today veal a more bellicose posture that iran is taking towards the United States. They reveal, frankly, a more belligerent posture than north korea taking towards the United States. And the headlines, frankly, arent great when it comes to russia or, frankly, china. So how do you explain to people who feel thathe world was safer under the Obama Administration, thatt presidump has taken steps to make it more secure . We cleay had a situation during the obama years where you had cuts in our Defense Budget, both because of the policy of the administration, also becausn of actioongress, and our adversaries, the russians and the chinese, used that period of time to develop weapon systems, in some cases, that we cant defend against to make advancest e havent yet made. And President Trump came in and he said, look, im not goa go down the path anymore of cutting the Defense Budget in ways that are unsustainable and forcing rer men and women in uniform to operate without thurces they need and of allowing our adversaries to continue to make advances. You look at Something Like whats going on in iran. You know, what you have in iran is a situation where they have been at war with us ever since ua1978, and theyre in a son where we know that they have continued to support terrorism around the world, continued their Ballistic Missile development, continued their Nuclear Weapons programs. People look at the joint the jcpoa, the Iran Nuclear Agreement and they say,sh oh, my somehow that made us safe and kept us stable, and the instability is President Trump pulling out, what that agreement did was essentially give benefits to iran in a situation which they were not required, for example, to allow inspectors into any of their military facilities. This president is mang clear that he is gonna stand up for our interests. Hes gonna stand up for american security. And were not gonna be in a position where we are, frankly, appeasing our adversaries in the hope that their behavior willec changese we know that wont keep us safe. So, were gonna get more to iran, but first id like to go backnd talk about your role during the Bush Administration at the state department. You were theeputy assistant secretary for Near Eastern Affairs in the department of state, and one of the eas of focus was on democracy promotion as a tool for peacekeeping around the world. And i wonder if you still support and believe that the promotion of democracy is an important tool for securing American Peace and support what the Bush Administration called the freedom agenda. I do. I do believe, absolutely, that those fundamental values of freedom and liberty on which we were founded are morally rightre and that thosealues that we ought to do everything we can to help to support andefend. And the critics of that, especially in the context of tht dministration, will point towards the middle east and say that there are just me cultures that are culturally inhospitable to the ideas of decracy or the institution that are prerequisites for democracy. What do you say to that . I think thats racist. You know, i think if you looks at ot just democracy. Democracy is a very important pa of human freedom. Womens empowerment is a very important part of freedom, i believe, economic empowerment. What we know is that all of those elements of free societies e the ones that are successful and the ones that create progss for human beings, and believe we have a fundamental obligation to help to t just defend those in the United States but our freedom and our success and our Economic Prosperity depends upon free societies around the world. Did you think its possible for democracy to flourish in the middle east . I do. In i mean, i you have examples of that. I mean, certainly israel is an example of that. Meso i dont believe that w there are only people of certain races that want to be free. I think that that, as i said before, i think thats a racist way to look at it. Could democracy flourish in saudi arabia and in iran . I mean, i certainly think that people have the right in all places and at all times to be free. And i think that when you look today at our relationship with saudi arabia, a lot of it it helps us to block iran. It helps us in terms o stability in the region. But i certainly think and when was at the state Department Spent a lot of time talking to the saudis about how important it was that women not be treated as secondclass zens. And i think those things still matter, and i think there are many societies, includg the saudis, that have a long way to go in that regard. Lets talk about iran. You wrote a book with your dad in 2015, and one of the arguments you de about iran was that the next president , whoever he or she was, should immediately rescind the jcpoa, the nuclear deal with iran. Fastforward to today. The president has recently decided to send an additional 1,000 troops to the region. Weve seen fiery flames on the sides of oil tankers, and iranno has ced that its about to break the uranium stockpile, anb its sthe nuclear deal. First of all, do you believe iran is behind the attacks on the oil tankers . Yes do you believe that the thing to do is to strike military targets as retaliation . I think the president ought b considering that and a number of other options. When you look at what the iranians are doing, the sort of bottomline message of all of this, from thenited states and from our allies around the world, has to be that they will not be allowed to continue their support for terror. They will not be allowed to continue to pursue the kind of military action that results in rmtacks on commercial shipping in the straits of. That those kinds of behaviors, at kind of activity is not something that the civilized world will stand band accept, and so the president , i think, has done the right thing. Look, what we want is to have maximum pressure, including through sanctions, as youve seen, so that the iranians recognize the behavior has got to stop. And i do think its very important for the iranians to know that we will defend those shipping lanes, that we will defend freedomf navigation, that we understand the kind of activity theyre engaged in and that it wont be tolerated. On may 19th, President Trump tweeted, if iran wants to fight, that will be the end of iran. Never threaten the United States again. Is there a risk of u bellicose rhetoric and not acting . Well, i think that President Trump is, in many, many ways, has demonstrated his willingness to act. Th and i thin you see that both with respect to the nuclear deal. Hu see that with respect decision, for example, when he was meeting with the rth koreans to say, you know what . Im gonna walk away from the table. I think hes been pretty clear in terms of the extent to which he is gonna defend this nation. So im i think acally the bigger risk for the United States comeif our adversaries miscalculate and they believe they can attack us without a response. What would a hot conflict with iran look like . I guess i shy away from saying a hot conflict, a cold conflict. I think you have to dealith each individual situation as you find it, and the situation were in with iran today is one where they have american blood on their hands. So the iranians have been engaged in what looks to me like a hot conflict with us for decades. Weve got to ensure that theyt dovelop Nuclear Weapons. Weve taken the agreement that basically said, youve got a pathway to Nuclear Weapons in a few years, was one, as ivee, said befhat i think was very irresponsible, and i think its good that weve stepped away from that. So, is the what should be hee strategic objective of United States visavis iran . Is it regime collapse . Is it regime change . Our strategic objective is to get the behavior to change. Regime behavior change. B i think tavior needs to change. Iranians need to stop their spport for terrorism. The iranians need p their activities that result in the death of americans and our allies around the world. The iranians need to recognize that we wont be blackmailed into lifting the sanctions. General petraeus was on thisr ram a couple of weeks ago, and he said the same thing. Regime behavior change is wh the strategic objective should be. But general petraeus wasnt sure that the objective is achievable based on what hes seen of the iranians. Based on what you know of the iranians, especially what youve written about in your book, that for 20 years, 40 years the iranians have never negotiated in good fait is it possible to change that regimes behavior . Well, i think well find out. And the security of the united stes and of our allies around the world depends upon the iranians not obtaining acl r weapon and recognizing that we wont continue to sort of stand by while they support terrorism and their Ballistic Missile development and the other malign activities across the region. Lets go to north korea. North korea is, after 500plus days, back to testing Ballistic Missiles. Hwant to show you a clip of what president tru recently said. Do you think hes still building Nuclear Weapons . W. I dont k promised me he wouldnt be. He promised me he wouldnt be testing. So you still trust him . Well, look. I couldnt tell you that. It would be very insulting to him. But the answer is, yeah, i believe that he would likeo do something. I believe he respects me. When he says that, when he says, he promised me hein wouldnt be te that he respects me, what is your reaction . Well, i tnk my first reaction was to a separate part of what he said, which was basically, why would i tell bvu, george . The president isusly engaged in an effort to get the North Koreans to stop developing their Nuclear Weapons, and so the last thing i would expect the president to do would be to sort of lay all of the cards on the table for george stephanopoulos, with all due respect to george stephanopous. Is there any part of it, though, when he says that rings true to you, that present trump actually means it when he says, well, he told me he wasnt gonna test, so im gonna take him at face value . Look, i think the president is negotiating. Idthink that its really important, with prt trump and with every president , to f dge based on action. I think at the ende day thats what matters, and what President Trump has done is to say, im not gonna go down that pa s. Do you think that messaging is a decoy and actually the administration is pulling a hard line behind the i think that President Trump, very wisely, is not sharing his negotiating strategy withte georgeanopoulos. I mean, its not just george stephanopoulos, but what should the administration do, then, to resolve the this question of a nuclearized north korea . Yeah, i think that its crucial that we understand that the North Koreans understand that we are demanding complete, verifiable, irrevers denuclearization of the peninsula. I think that is important for the chinese to recognize that its not in their interest for a Nuclear North Korea to continue on the path that its on. That will cause destabilization in the region. I think its important for the south koreans to know that the United States will stick by its commitments in the region. E the japanese, me. I think we do need to be able to work with our allies in the region, all of whom recognize that a north korea thais armed esents a grave danger to all of us. An is there ything they should be doing different, the administration . Because i mean, what youve outlined is essentially what the Bush Administration tried to do with the sixarty talks, and yet we still are in this gasition where kim jongun is testing missiles. I think that the difference is not being so anxious to get a deal that we accept a deal thata doesnt actualomplish that goal. And i do think thats what happened too often. And i think thats where the president was right to say to the North Koreans, i am walking away. To walk away. Really, the most important lesson, if you look at the history here, is how much damage it does when the North Koreans convince the United States and cee rest of our allies to a deal that accomplishes less than that, and then they get the benefits and they get the concessions, but they havent actually delivered on what we need to make us safe. I want to move on to russia. And a lot has been made out President Trump and Vladimir Putin and the words they have for each other. But id like to back up to theus prevdministration because there was wide criticism of the Obama Administration from many, including you, about the Obama Administrations russian reset licy. Yeah. So, i think that the Obama Administration andn secretary clin the helm at the state department really sorf l into this idea that if we somehow extended a hand, that that would fundamentally change the course of that country and le that regime. And i think the pris that Vladimir Putin hes kgb. In vladimir ps what he is, and he is running that nation with an effort to try to rebuild the russiaempire. Hes been quoted saying that one of the worst tragedies of the 20th century was the fact that the soviet union crumbled. And so, i think its very important for us to recognize they very clearly are adversaries. So, against that backdrop of president putins aspiration to reassemble russia as a major geopolical force, do you think about what would happen if russia tried to mimic actions of the invasion of crimea and uaine but with a rtto ally, like estonia, and what would you suphe administration doing in that case . Absolutely we invoke article 5. Th nato isinglemost successful military alliance inm the history kind. And it is an alliance that depends ve much on the russians recognizing that we will, at all times, co to the aid of nato members if theyre attacked. I think that its important for us to make sure that the russians understand that messag so they make a miscalculation. Do you think that there is a risk that they might not understand that because of some of the softer rhetoric that has comerom the president toward russia and towards president putin . I think that the policy i clear. And obviously being in the house of representatives now, we hear a lot from the democrats, on an hourly basis, it seems, about allegations that the Trump Administration has somehow colluded with the russians. But what see i sit on the Armed Services committee, and we worked vy hard last week to