Additional funding is provided by. Corpore funding is provided by. Welcome back to firing line, leader abrams. Thank you for having me. So since you were first on firing line in january of 2019,d you delivee democratic response to the state of the union. You decided not to runun for thed states senate. And you have focused on fair fight, which is yourvo ng rights group. Youve also written another book, our time is now. You are widely rumored to be on the short list to become joe bidens Vice President ial nominee. An to get to all of that. But first, a man from your city, Rayshard Brooks, is dead after being shot in the back by police. This happened very near and a member of hily district. Said, i thought atlanta was higher than that. I thought we were bigger than that. Did you think atlanta was higher than that and bigger than that . I think the challenge is what is america . Because what has happened in atlanta, what happened in louisvill what happened in minneapolis, what has happened in countless ties across our country is that the systems that are designed to protect us are revealing themselves once again to also be the source of our demise. Atlanta is not immune to that type of systemic racism. Georgias not immune to it. And unfortunately, the United States is not immune to it. To solve it. Ve an opportunity and i think thats the conversation that needs to drive ery decision this year, including how we vote. So, protesters across this country fog the death of george floyd are calling for justice. And i want to know what Stacey Abrams thinks justice is. Ive spent my adult life in active pursuit of not just the right to vote, but what that vote means. And justice is about making certain that every person has free and fair access to e perks of citizenship, that there is accountability and there is opportunity. And unfortunately, in a country where if you are bla you are more susceptible to dying from covid19, youre more likely toe infected, youre more likely to lose your job. And killed by police. Be shot when we think about what happened to george floyd,or breonna taahmaud arbery, Rayshard Brooks, what happened to tony mcdade and others is about extrajudicial killings. Its aboutr whether stice system, when it comes to criminal activity, whether it works. D ght now it does not for too many people, whether its justice in our elections, justice in our economy,in justicur criminal Justice System across the board, our responsibility as americans is to fix these problems so that every americantu can ly fulfill their full potential. I was so struck in reading this book, your new book, how you were first drawn to activism in the wake of rodney kings beating by polic in los angeles. Do you find echoes in the current protests with your protesting as a college soting r rodney king . Absolutely. I actually began myctivism long before that my parents were very engaged as teenagers c in til rights movement. So i grew up with a very healthy appreciation for activism and proteing. But the first decision i made on my own we were gonna go do this was when i protested in the wake of the rodney king decision, and its identical in some of its scope. It was a video of police harming a citizen, beating him. And what was so disturbing, what erupted into those demonstrations was the exoneratioof those men on filmehavior was captured and yet explained away. That type of injustice that dehumanization is whats fueling this passion. What hope is different this time is that in 1992, we were in the midst a president ial campaign and demonstrations. Tests but in 1993, we did not see change. And my hope is that in 2020, we will elect leadersat very level of government who actually take it as their responsibility to start to fundamentally address and dismantle these systems of suppression. So willhat be justice . Will a total change of the Political Leadership absolutely not. Justice . The reality is were a nation that was builtst on the very ic inequities that were trying to dismantle. And its disingenuou for any person in leadership or not to exhort folks to say, well, if you vote, things change. No, if you vote, things can change. That way. Ve to preface it it can change, but change is slow and plodding because these systems have existed for 240plus years. And so were not going to, with a single election, w elect a savi will change our lives and were not going to dismantle system that has governed our lives. President trump announced this week that he is banningch eholds unless an officers life is at risk, increase the use of force training, and create a federal database of officers with a hisry of use of excessive force. Now, i know that you are a critic of president trumps, but is this a step in the right direction to hear this from the rose garden . It is a modest step that accomplishes small parts of what we need. But he holds the most powerful position in our nation, and the timidity of his response yes, you can say tureming. Banning chokeholds unless an officers life is in danger. But what we found with Rayshard Brooks was that they thought their life was in danger and shot him in the back. And so the notion that yr life being in danger is the predicate for using something that we know literally crushes the life out of others is the wrong approach. And unfortunately, i think he is bowing to not only political pressure, but to the timidity of his own moral courage. C and thats why only give him small credit for the database, which is a good thing. Es but weve and demand great things. He also said this. Nn im show you a clip and let you respond. For the last 3 1 2 years, my administration has been focused on creating opportunity, fighting for equal justice and truly delivering r. Nobody has ever delivered results like weve delivered. Nobodys come close. Leader abrams, what is your reaction to that statement . He lies. Look, lets take it piece by piece. He claims that hes done more. Thiss the same president who rolled back the Obama Administration initiatives to actually ha the Justice Department work with our police officers,rk ith Law Enforcement to actually improve their behaviors. He rolled backst the obama admition initiatives to demilitarize our police. Hes the same person who has time and again used languagto incite behavior against africanamericans. Sois willingness to twist the truth and only amplify the smallest parts of credibility are deeply disturbing. And how does it make you feel . He says hes done the most foric africanams than anybody. Its a reaffirmation everday of why i believe he should not be in charge of our country,it becaus either that he knows hes lying and intends harm or he doesnt know hes lying and doesnt understand the problem. And either one of those thingsem warrants hisal from office through an election. But whats more impoant that he thinks the small crumbs of not killing us, of not hming us, should warrant such accolades. And that not the measure. The measure is justice. The measure is equity. E measure is opportunity and he has failed to meet those measures. So when you look back at all of the solutions that have been proposed, what are the reforms that are most import you . So i think there are two parts tohis conversation. And unfortunately, there is this burgeoning debate about reform versus transformation. And i think we have to recognize that they must coexist. On the reform side, the United States has some of the lost hourly requirements for training for new officers in the world. To and we neeo more and we need to broaden the scope of that training. Number two, we need to dismantle aneliminate qualified immunity. Whenaw enforcement officers break the la they should be held accountable. We need to absolutely deal with issues of chokeholds and deescalation. And so theres a litanyhi ofs that can be done to reform the behaviors and the practices in law enforment. What about police Union Contracts . I believe in unions. I believe that every union shou do itjob and support its people. But i think Police Unions in some places have outsized authority over what happens to the people they are sposed to serve. And when those two things come into conflict,ob the fundamentagation of every officer and the publics nblic, should absolutely take primacy. Alright, so you bring me to the rallying cry around the activists these days. And it is defund the police. T and it seeme that many people have a different definition for defund the police. De what ind the police mean to you . In my mind, its a necessary rallying cry for those who seek simple wayal to cl to attention those o can provide change. But ive been in public poli too long to think anything is that simple. But i understand the enthusiasm. A former representative from the state house in south carolina, bakari sellers, was on the program last week. And he said to me, you know, defund thpolice is a rallying cry that just tells me that democrats suck at messaging. I mean, the criticismrt from some is that if you dont really mean defund the place, dont use the words dund the police. It risks undermining the effort. Do you agree . Well, i think we put too much we give too much power to the medias attentn to language in this case, which is that but do words matter . I mean, weve spent years saying words matter. Thats going to be my point. Kirds matter. And what were t about are activists who are watching people being murdered and their rallying cry comes from the heart. But when it moves into political hands, when it moves into policspaces, we also have to be very clear about how do we get there, cause we live in a natio where just because youre right doesnt mean you get what you want. And so our responsibility is not to weaken their cry because the messaging doesnresonate with us or to adopt it and then turn it into something its not. My responsibility is to think about hodo we take the substantive vision that they have and make it a reality, which is that black lives indeed matter and the people that are supposed to be seed by our Public Safety officers are actually served and not killed. This question about whether, you know, activists have their c but if they really mean it, does it undermine the kind of policy progress i think people like you and and many of us want to see. It didnt dismantle the tea party when they called for completely dismantling government. The tea party was able to use rhetoric oh, i think it did. Hmm . The tea party deeply undermined the tea partys progress. It deeply undermine it long term. Once they got into office and realized what you said as an activist couldnt translate into politics. But lets remember how eective the tea party was in the 2010 elections in riling up behavior and riling up energy. And because the people they were speaking for were earnest in their beliefs. And what we see happening wi activists is that they are earnest in their beliefs and they are going to vote. My job is not police no pun intended the language of activists who are pitting themselves against a system that dismisses them. About how do we meet to think the underlying issues my point is that activists serve a very specific pue o society, regardless of what because they are uaround, using the strongest and rawest language they havto express their deepest concerns. But as someone who is in public policy, my responsibility is to think about how do we actually achieve the outcome that is sought. And its not to get into debes about the legitimacy of language or not. Its to think about what are they trying t and how do we get it done . Okay, as you know, firing line aired for 33 years, was hosted by william f. Buckley jr. , who hosted represent john lewis on the program. And he and john lewis, who is of gegia, as you know, had a conversation about the Voting Rights act and its effect on black americans. Look at this clip from 1974. I would be very interested in hearing your views on what your matured reflections are on whether the use of the ballot box is, in fact, the means by which you introduce justice, ey, opportunity. At this particular time american history, i would say that the ballot box is the most effective, the most meaningful instrument that black people cause b towanging about justice and equality. Only a monthersation happened after you were born, and you recently wrote a new yorkimes opinion editorial making the argument for the importance of voting. U so do ink that lewis statement still holds true today that the ballot box is the most effectivinstrument for bringing about justice and equality . Absolutely. That conversation happened 46 years ago. Ea but the on of the systemic racism, systemic suppression started 240plus yea before. We cannot undo in 46 years that which has had 200 years to ossify and to concretize. And so our responsibility, though, is to not abandon the mechanisms that democracy hands us. Its our responsibility to use the demographic changes, the inflection points and the ballot box to te what we want and turn it into action. And so absolutely, i believe that ving remains the single most effective and powerful weapon we have to create justice in our country. And yet you wrote. Democracy feels inadequate. Voting feels inadequate because it takes time. It is tedious. It is complex. And we who have suffered under any degree of suppression or oppression, we worry that we wont be here to see the results. E th an urgency to our lives that says we need change to happen so better can come. And voting is a process. It is not a solution. Ur its not a but much with disease, with any diseasese like the disf racism, like the disease of injustice, disease requires treatment. And those treatments cant be itinerate. They cant be episodic. Ey have to be consistent, particularly for a disease that can metastasize the way injustice does. And so voting is that kindf treatment that requires steady application. And its going to take a while. Ard the reality is the disease doesnt just turnd and go away because you started taking a treatment. There are setbackse and thtbacks have to be acknowledged. But the way we keepe eatment working, the way we moved from slavery to justice, the way we move from disenfranchisement to voting, the way we make our moves is that we use the right to vote. Its voting and its the section of those who speak for our nation that change our future. With voting in mind i cant not ask you about the most recent oprtunity that georgians had to vote. Primary elections were just held in your state of georgia. And after more than a 100 Million Investment in new voting equipment, there were still reports of eighour lines and chaos. Technical difficulties abounded. Some pls in and around atlanta were open till 9 30, 10 00 at night. There was one atlanta suburb that is 88 percent black and had lines until 12 37 a. M. For people to cast their llots. What happened and who is responsible . This was a combination of incompetence and malfeasance. When you and i spoke last, i detailed all of the challenges that we face in georgias voting system, was the purchase of 107 million worth of machines on which the operators were inadequately trained. Ey were inadequately sourced. Therwere challenges with making the machines operable. And there was a deliberate indifference to the voters of georgia from the secretary of state, whose constitutional obligation it is to ensure the administration of elections. Brad raffensperger did not dom. His job. I am not calling for resignation yet because part of the challenge ise dont know who is going to replace him. And the person who would be in charge of his replacement someone who has also been an architect of voter suppression. So i am less sanguine being the person of brian kemp who picks the replacement for brad raffensperger, which is how the system in georgia works. Yes, there were mistakes made by counties, but ery single county is the rponsibilit of the secretary of state when it comes to tithe administration of els. And lets be clear. It targeted black and brown communities. E they were ast likely to be resourced. They had the longest lines. They had thereatest trouble. But in the speaker of the houses district, there were counties that also faced this. Ic repu rural counties, suburban mixed counties his incompetence harmed everyone because when you break the mainery of democracy, you break it for everyone. So, leader abrams, how is this problem going to be fixed by november . Well, there are a few things that happened here. One, and thats where the incompetence comes in. He spent 400,000 in federal elections assistance money, doing an advertiseme about how smart he was for picking these new maches. That could have paid for60 poll workers on election day. And those poll workers could have reduced those lines, sped that process and lped out voters. But his refusal to do his job is what happened. However, we cannot solve these problems alone because what happened in georgia, while singular, is not solely the place where this is a problem. Across this country, mailin ballots are going tove o be part of the solution. 4 states have noexcuses absentee balloti 16 states have absenteebu ballotinwith excuses. But the heroes act, the investment by the federal government into cashstrapped states and local communities,ng thats go be absolutely necessary for elections to work in november anywhere in the country. Every state our countryac haowledged at one point or another mailin balloting has to happen. So i welcome everyone to the logic. There are some who argue, look, if its safe enough to protest, its safe enough to go to the polls and vote. How do you respond to them . A personal decision that is based on the urgency an individual feels about going out and making their voice heard. But voting is a constitutional right and that therefore it is incumbent upone ate actors to ensure that it is a safe engagement, because there are a lot of folks who arent protesting who may share those beliefs, but they are afraid of dying. And so theyre not. We should not t on the individual their decision about harm or help when they make a decision about voting. Is s a public responsibility and therefore it is incumbent upon the states to make it as safe as possible for every person to vote. In our time is now, your new book, you say, and this is a quote. What are democrats doing wrong . Too often we keep trying to win the last election using the exact same electorate profile that we think either cost us the victory or won us the war. And so my response is we have to meet every single year, every single election towards whos here now. Every year, more and more young people cross that age barrier from 17 to8 and can participate. And we know theyre more demographically diverse an theyve ever been in american history. We know that there are thosen whove bssatisfied with the performance of the president who are coming to our side. And we know that theyre people who have l