Sean penn, welcome to firing line. Thanks very much. H good to e. You are a twotime Academy Awardwinning actor, a director and author. And you have been in in humanitarian relief work now for more than a decade. We saw you making rescues yourself in new orleans during hurricane katrina. And you spent months in haiti after that devastating earthquake in 2010. Anityou have founded a nonpr called Community Organized relief effort righthere on your shirt, core, which is on the front lines of the current covid19 pandemic. L ani am grate that you are joining me. Good to be here. Listen, did you ever in you wildest imagination think that you would be administering humanitarian relief aid in your own hometown, los angeles, california . No, not at all. Its a real adjustment to make psychologically. E when working overseas, and particularly in what are pically considered thirdworld countries, and u get a text message from a friend, you just immediately say in the fiel will call back later. To consider being in your own hometown and thinking of that as in the field is a very it is an odd paradigm shift. So, your organization, core, has decided to focus on testing sd youre on the front li offering free drivethrough testing to the countrys most vulnerable populations. First, how did you focus on testing . Why did you pick that ar to focus on . Well, i we up to the morning that was covid19 and knew that i hadun r my feet an infrastructure and i had great people disaster response. We had worked through the cholera epidemic in haiti as well as postearthqua and had some relationship to Infectious Disease in that sense. So we went to the governor, to Governor Newsom in california and said, rehey, youve got a team is there a gap we can he fill . He guided us to mayor Eric Garcetti in los angeles, who with the los angeles fire department, had already set up a very good testing system. But the problem was that on all their test sites in los angeles, it was manned by 20 to 25 firefighters, which meant that those firefighters would not be in the field and responding with r paramedic corps, with their brushfire corps and all of so we were able to go in, get trained up by them and then build trainers out of our own people and be able to start recruit. And so its something that we were able to take off the hands of the fire department, because anybody whos gotten a little bit of will and a little bit of thought is able to learn how to animate the testing aspect of it. You started this drivethrough testing ons march 30th in geles and are now managing testing sites in five states and are expanding to several others, including navajo nation. How are you sean . Im very well gov. Thank you i w thank you so much and core for what you did. Opening up those testing sites. Getting it done as quickly as you did i cant thank you enough. We are proud to be in partnership with you. Youve been a time capsule of reason we need in this time. To your collaborathe key or the key to your core effort, the strategy, is to ild partnerships in order to fill gaps. Absolutely. And its partnerships. Initially, the one thing that we hope will be replicated with other local governments, municipalities, whether on a state or local level, the way that were going to make a real impact is not so much of our 250,000 tests to date to whatever that number actlly is. But the replicability of this kind of match between government and an ngo or communityga zation on whatever scale that theyre able to do it. Itshe way that i believe the whole country can get tested when these disasters happen. You know, i think president obama recently used the analogy about pulling the veil back. Well, its not only pullge il back on those things that might be criticized in government. You pull back the veil on government in general, and youre going to find that, yes, l of the big tools are there, to the scale that allow, for example, mass testing. You dont have the Human Resources when it comes to contact tracing. One of the difficulties in using the nationrd is, you know, a lot of people are not going to be very cooperative with information if its a man in uniform or a woman in uniform knocking on their doorayg, who have you been around lately . So being ccitizens in that way, working with groups like the natnal guard,th e things are very important. So its really about being willing to have faith each other and go in. And when you come to a city or state or locality that has political leadership, that embraces it l d takes the leap of faith, you do see an awt of magic happen. T things one, e there local municipalities do you find that theyre eager to work with you . And are there states you know, most municipalities are blue areas, right . You know, cities tend to be more liberal. What about red cities or, you know, more some of the more consvative places . Im thinking Oklahoma City or jacksonville, florida. Have you tught about expanding into those places . Well, weve worked in and unfriendly envnts. Riendly within any unfriendly environment, you will find some people in leadership. Ntr example, we work in at georgia. Mayor bottoms i think she just genuinely has concern for her constituents. H there, ye a governor whos on a planet unknown to mee so there it is a little more difficult in those circumstances. But the bottom lineit is thas, you know, any thinking person knows this isnt aut im not in the opening of the economy or not openingno of e business. Obviously people are suffering in extrodinary ways. There are going to be a lot of exss mortalities. People who didnt go to the hospital because they didnt trust the Public Health at this stage, and a lump went fro a stage 2 to a stage 4. And were going to be talking about that for years to come. Theres no reason things. To distract myself with, you know, with a shared opinion about e opening aspect of it. What is certain to me is that testing is a partnership between citizens at large d its not bordered by states. We should all be getting tested. Surveillance is a big part of it so that we start to understand this virus, but also so those families that would otherwisefected by someone who tests positive, that person can be isolated. I think we should l wear masks, whether we are red, blue or parang in the streets, if only as a sign of solidarity with these hospital workers who have put themselves on behalf of other human beings and in the line of duty they have. Do what we cas put it on just to say i salute you. Thats all we have to do. If we can get to the place where were testing as much as we need to, what does that look like . Is that every american can get a testmuch as once or twice a week . Eah, thats what i or see, the int thing that Everyone Needs to know about the pcr is theyre diagnostic tests, meaning were not talking about the serology antibody tests. Were not in the serology test business at this stage. All do is the diagnostic tests that says, yes, youre positive or youre negative. The test result is as reliable as the ilation that you give yourself between testing and result. Anybody can pick it up in between. So i do think that if people t are diligent, y get tested twice a week and its absolutely p not onsible, we as a country could easily test twice a ek. And a test doesnt take long. Its a snap. Ou what people who are nervous about getting tested . There are people who are reluctant still. Again, theyve got to look hard at the people they love and make that decisionst id like to show you something President Trump said about testing just recently. Let me show you what he said and get your reaction onhe back end. What weve done on testing weve now tested more than the entire world put together, the entire world put together. We have many more tests than they do and better tests. Cases is because we have more testing. We actually have not conducted more tests th put together, although we have completed more raw tests than any other individual country. You know, its widely acknowledged that the federal government was behind the ball and bohed the initial phases of testing. Whats your reaction to the federal governments response testing . It goes without saying that none of us are clear. If there is a national strategy, none and federal guidelines, as it relates from social distancing to testing to every other aspect of procurement and manufacturing ppe. You know, the way that the president said it,d i wort ways and just in the sense that knowing what we seed on the gro and talking to people because we use most of the work we do is in very marginalized populations. Cken those people, be they ite, bbrown, anywhere in the country, see that they have an opportunity thats when we wil a week, ucke a sucss. It doesnt do megood to get into talking about the white house. Its going to be o failure as a country, as citizens if we dont, between advocating in our own way for that production, et cetera, anutto follow this up, weve out, with core, a manual. Its open source on our website. Its a kind of idiots guide to setting up test sites. Its not a complicated thing to do. You need the ppe, you need the testing, you need lab relationship. That can be that can happen all over this country. And the success will be when every american has the opportunity to be tested twice a week. And the more americans that opt in on that program, the sooner this things going to be disarmed. There are a lot of people who dont want to get tested twice a week. They dont want to wear a mask. What do you thin about incentivizing them to in some way . Maybe either tying it to unemployment benefits, tying it to ppp payments, the Small Business loans program. Do you think people just do it through the goodness of their own hearts, if eyre, as you said, looking at their own family, or is there a way to mandate it or encourage it . The first thought is, is that it about leadership. This is the idea y its not oe United States. Every part of the world is doing their own thing on this. And some of themnt moreesting and successful ways than others. But nobody nobodys bulletproof. And i think it really i dont see a better path than leadership. And if it has to be leaderip in the state, then so be it. He i do thinkresident of the united stes, whatever conflict i may have, if if and im not suggesting this could happen or not, but the incredible legacy that he would have, no matter whats happened, no matter how horrible and be for certainiespear across this country already, if he did attack this in a way that moved fo quickly to where people could be tested twice a week, where the Scientific Community could have the the surveillancee thatneed, i really believe that that this that openingil this economyhappen sooner. This is, at the very least, a mandatory rehearsal that this country has to have u erstand preparedness, to understand solidarity, to understand how to group together and take these things on, whether its a pandemic, a dirty bomb, a hurricane or all the otherhings that are coming our way. This could be a great bonding moment. I just encourage the president and all the governors you know, im spoiled because i come from a state that has done that. And that doesnt make our state bulletproof. But we are blessed to have governor newso and mayor garcetti because they reallyn have b much as possible within the complexity of political position, doing anxtraordinary job. You sound a lot less partisan now than people think of you in the past, because, you know, i presume its causee youre in enches. You want to get things done, arent forefront ond. E you tweeted. Yeah, i think i got a little bit tired of myself believing that my dier table passion conversations were translating or being productive. And ive always had great relationships onth people of varying opi ive had bitter arguments. Ti sos that has to do the way the lens through which ive seen the worlmay be different from other peopl but, you know, in humility,i also just one more person saying, hat the hell is going on . We better work together, in all aspects of this, but covid19, we have a ty make this a silver lining. We all think about the various Silver Linings possible every day. Have to to keep ourselv somewhat sane. But there are so many possibilities of that. And its really the only way were going to honor these ts of thousands of people that have died from this thing who were who we here with us grandparents, fathers, mothers, et cetera. Even some children. They were just here with us alive a minute ago. And now we imagine them piled up like wood in the rain. And the only way that they get an honorable passing is if we commit ourselveshe toilver linings. How do you understand how partisan every element of this pandemic has become . Even the debate about reopening . I mean, last week there were protesters in orange county,lo just south of s angeles, your home beach, otesting the beach closures. The president is criticizing impeople who disagree with it seems like every aspect of this cant be removedns from the partip. How do you think about that . Well, what we see, as i said, principally in quite marnalized areas, is that the the larger number of peoplest who are the ulnerable and the most without and who ha been before this covid19, they are the ones who ar largely most concerned about opening too fast, and i do find it upsetting to see that people who have large groups of people who have never known any oppression or going without of any kind suddenly on their own behalf are saying, free me, free m free me without real concern. But the part of that i can be empathetic to becauseli ng in quarantine is not something anybodyex cted to do. I just think we are in too much of a rush and too many people who are haves are inking the argument for op without listening to those who dont have the same access to healthcare and what thats gointo mean for their famili if thithing goes wrong. But why do you think that why do you think theres a rush to getack . Do you think its politically driven . All aboutnk its ju the economy . Well, i think theres been so much misinformation p thple are fatigued where they would be otherwise insped. , you kns one of those times where you got to look the country in the eyeua and say, ay, we have to sacrifice completely. We cant do it halfway. And if we do that together, we can make all this go much quicker and much more effectively and save a lot of lives. But do you think that we have done what you just said . We have stepped up to meet the moment i dont mean necessarily our political leadership. Ybe some have. Maybe some havent. But the American People have basically took the guidae and went home and flattened the curve. Ly larhats true. But the guidance has been chaotic. And so we you know, yes, its in the American People to stand up. That im seeing. I see it with our volunteers and weve got 450 of them in their own neighborhoods working, dng this stuff for their own community. So are americans s willing p up . Yes. Enu go to the stores, you see some dil. You also see, you know, the wiring that it takes to really do this right has to again be hammered into us when we go online, apers,e read our new when we watch the news on television. Weve got to have a streamline thing because its hard every day to realize where your hand goes, what it touches, how far away you arerom people. What is the air and the aerosol what did tll me yesterday different from today . What part of it is common sense . And i think common sense l is anothel of step up we still have not fully asped in a harmonious way. Out of being an ac,reer being a rabble rouser, maybe earlier in your career,ma before your tarian relief work. Is there any part of you that empathizes with the ters or feel sympathy for them . Oh, yeah. Well, i would say this when i see people, you know, doing the unmasked, you know, it kind of feels a bit hateful in its demonstration, weapons over shoulders and so on. What i see is people who are ared. Theyre scared of not mattering. And weve got to work on that. And weve got to care about them as much as we do anybody else. And i do. You know, i can get infuriated watching that. D thats but that is where we go to leadership. And i think that we alsee where leadership harnesses thbest in america and where it doesnt. How do you think the question of leadership is going to impact the 2020 election . You know, as of 2016, i just i opt out of this conversation. Thats up loo what happened is on us. Itsn us for whether people are happy with thisad nistration and those who are desperately unhay. Someone elsew, those who wanted in the white house evidently did not work harenough. And i count myself in. They won. Thats the electoral colge. And now its up to america whether theyre going to reembrace that or change it. During the primaries, you told jimmy kimmel, you said that youre. So, in terms of those principles that we stand for, who is going to be a bett lder to continue us through covid19 . Is that joe biden or is th President Trump . I think its some brilliant 25yearold whcys got better digital flu than either of them. And i think, you know, of wisdom these days. Possession you know, it used to be always us i was hoping to age into the older, wiser set. But i look and i think the theater wisdom is in the y i think that the way to change this country right now is to say, lets take your leade use its their future. And i think that they are an oppressed society. Their dreams have been lited by our mistakes and are threatened, certainly. U ow, i remember mountain caps, that snow caps that were had been there, you know,pe in time anetuity. And theyre gone now. This climate issue. These things, covid wont be the existential threat, but it is the existential opportunity. I think climate is probably the first one. D Nuclear Proliferation is the the other one that id be more concerned with but again, yeah, i would lower the age of it. What is it, about 36, 37 you got toe to be president of the United States . 35. Lets take 10, 8, 10 years off of that and well be in business. Listen. Final question. N astist, as you look at this pandemic, are you finding a deeper meaning or understandingab t why were experiencing this now . Its a funny thing. When i was first in haiti in 2010 after the earthquake, i knew a lot of people who i would run into thought i was there to make a vie about it. And it wasnt for years that i actually until i ended up considering what that would look like. And what i thought was that the only way to hit the human heart of this story that it could not be a drama. It has to be a farce, like mash, at great movie. In our hearts, we s, this was going to happen, something ke this was going to happen. So i think the you kn, if i look at it through that lens, like most things, until we can make fun so i think that thatt gr