Everyone knows each other and pretty much walk into each others house and just go straight to the fridge. Fitzsimons [chuckles] so youve been welcomed back. Ko yeah. Ive never beeeen shunned from this community. Fitzsimons like all the deportees, ko haapus life didnt turn out the way he planned. Now he has no option but to make the most of what he has. Ko im just concentrating on what i need to bebe doing today, instead of worrying about tomorrow and whats coming. Once were out there, were just free of everything. No one can contact me unless you swim out there and start surfing with us. Well, homes home. Cant deport me from herere. Twenty four hello and welcome to quadriga around the world one person is forcibly displaced nearly every two seconds. Thats the highest level of displacement on record it amounts to over seventy Million People trying to flee to safety. Often risking their lives in the mediterranean six hundred migrants drowned in the first half of this year alone. After a two week standoff with italian authorities who were blocking access to ports a german rescue ship last week forced its way into the port of lampedusa. Leading to the prompt arrest of a captain. Migrants seeking entry to the us also face dangers including cramped and unhygienic conditions in Holding Camps along the southern border with mexico. Trapped refugees rescue for business thats our title this week on quadriga and here are our guests. Ana Maria Alvarez from costa rica is a refugee activist and founder of the migration hub. She says we dont combat irregular migrants by letting them die while crossing borders we do it by offering safe and regulated pathways. And fair migratory policies both for the country and for those migrating. So then so does show works at the home of university and shes an expert on migration issues she says humanitarian rhetoric alone doesnt make humanitarian policy. U. S. And e. U. Migration policies are more similar than we may face. And its a pleasure to welcome modulating factor the program he works for the daily newspaper de tiger spiegel and he says we will only achieve a humane european refugee policy. If you use it a sense a cent europe has had to tighten its borders in order to prevent right wing populist from gaining the upper hand. So so they let me start out by asking you about the numbers that were seeing as i mentioned this is in fact the biggest wave of refugees worldwide. On record since the Second World War why is that and must we expect this trend in fact to continue rising. Its indeed the case that on the refugee influx to europe has been unprecedented since World War Two but the reasons are very diverse we see people fleeing from warmer but also people searching for opportunities in europe. So im. Theres on the one hand the intensification of war and conflict in the middle east. And hardships in south america that need to large movements of people but theres also economic developments in africa. That leads to an increase in the number of migrants arriving from there and also crossing the mediterranean through libya. A number here those who advocat tighter borders often see refugees as people who are making an economic choice basically looking for a better life. Those who advocate doing more to open borders to receive them. Typically see refugees as victims for example of conflict of environmental disaster and and so on we just heard its a lot more complicated than that what does that mean for policy. Well i to just sort of a gram correctly right i mean we have to make a distinction between was a refugee in who is an Asylum Seeker and was actually looking for a partner canonical opportunities right. So we have to distinguish that in the first place and yes of course especially when when when when we talk about whats happening in the mediterranean and people fleeing out especially from leave yeah these days i mean just. I i guess was just right of the the strike happened and killed. Forty forty people in a in a in a migrant comping a levy a soul so of course hes isnt just right so what what he means for policy means that many countries have signed up and has committed to his Global Compact recently which is basically to save water intake and try. To add tried to prevent these people from dying from the sea and actually creating more safe pathways for for my rest to come all of your sleep countries like italy austria Australia United States were to one schools who sign up. Is a Global Company for example a a in a solution of course not but its a commitment from this company is to s strengthen and actually basically to take care of the pathways of migrants in when theyre migrating. But as you pointed out with your Opening Statement anti migrant sentiment essentially xena phobia often has become a driving force for right wing populism in europe but if you look at this distance statistic. Which europe has taken in only 16 of the total number of people who are fleeing its actually poor african and middle Eastern Countries that have taken in the vast bulk. Of migrants worldwide is that fair. It might not be fair and im i mean youre competing correct i mean the syrian migrants from syria they basically are in turkey and jordan and in the book. I think six million so four seven millions of them on these three countriess combined. So if you compare to these trees countries europe in its it as a block has not taken in the loft. Thoughts and there is about to hit the but is you have to reconcile the humanitarian imperative to help those people with the acceptance of the local people and it seems to be lacking a huge part of acceptance of it as you mentioned in your question the first part of the question. And your witness as a sick consequence of this the rise of a lot of basically right wing populism in europe that does that. That is the consequence of noble open border policy. That so its not a question of fairness its questionn of how many could be reconciled with societies in the states. Selena as you implied in your Opening Statement there is a lot of humanitarian rhetoric in europe but you were essentially saying that the practice. Is Something Else the fact is there is a strong body of migration law in place we have rules and systems and processes for how to deal with the flow of migrants but obviously that system is broken or we wouldnt be having this conversation. Yes so the body of law does not reflect the political reality and this is something that i want to come back to which is. Making this connection between the influx of refugees and right wing populism is not that clear right. The countries that are most opposed to it in europe namely poland and im hungry there isnt those of the countries that had the least influx of refugees in europe right so they they base their anti refugee rhetoric. On sort of a threat perception around refugees right and this is this is the thing that we have to tackle i dont think. People are opposed to the humanitarian idea of taking in refugees i think what they are afraid of is the unregulated uncontrolled way that refugees are entering. So bice and should not save people from the mediterranean because that will fuel right wing support i dont think is the real narrative the narrative is. To bring people over to europe safely. And have them thatd have them background checked and be humanitarian also in the size of migrants that we want to bring in not just saying we just shut it off in order. To you know drain of the the right wing rhetoric thats not what we should do i think this is also not the i am the solution to this restaurant because it is based on a threat perception rather than on reality in my opinion. I would come back to you mother i know you wanted to respond to that but lets just. Take a brief look at the situation in the meditator mediterranean and particularly a look at just how dysfunctional the practice and there has become it was illustrated in the past few weeks. When we saw a crisis that essentially pitted the captain of a german refugee ship against italys populist leader . Its elise interior minister Matteo Salvini nicknamed capitano. Does this not to his love of the sea but to his strict policy on refugees. She only of the hunt is a real captain german refugee aid worker hello to kato. Many consider her a hero. Two weeks ago she took fifty three refugees aboard the sea watch three important to it to make. Despite cell beanies entry bond she finally decided on the saturday night and to the ports on the small italian island of lampedusa. We declared a state of necessity because the psychological situation and t the military conditition has been wororsenino much that i cannot guauarantee e safety of the rescue people. The captain was under arrest for several days for entering the fourth illegally because see watch three collided with a Border Patrol by. Ill be neat things she should spend is behind bars. Is that what it says it was a criminal it will like. This couple advocates a hero or criminal. Some of the whos right. The captain of ms racket or so many. The captain is right i mean you have to save lifes point theres no discussion about it and theres no but to it theres nothing else. Its a humanitarian imperative to kind of let people die who are neat. So theres nothing to add for i having said that there is a dilemma we are facing the dilemma is you dont want to encourage people. To go on a on a on an adventurous trip. That might kill you. So by saving lives because sometimes just sending messages. To two people who are coming so this is the dilemma. You cannot escape just easily and saying i want to blend out the the consequences of it. You have to safely but there is no but to it but there is sosomething that youre in coaching people to go on this i want to take that point to the other guests in just a moment let me just ask you. One other thing that goes back to your Opening Statement and the idea that we may have to tighten borders in order to prevent right wing populist from gaining the upper hand in fact dont actions like cell viennese tightening the borders of italy in many ways feed to the kind of xenophobia that silly just described rather than actually reducing it. Its hard to say what what what is first in one second it was the consequence of what i mean its its really seems to be an example that i mean the legal nord. Where shes of the party chief off his game the legal note is up in the polls . I think its now a a a support a rate of 35 of the delegates. This is terrifying even. Even salvini is making all these speeches maybe hes fueling it. But maybe hes just reflecting a sentiment that is an attorney in italy as you mentioned in the first place was one of the countries that most refugees came in from the mediterranean. They had a huge influx of of of of of immigrants so this is a very very complicated it did connection between what causes what there is clearly example phobicic sentiments inviting populace the task before it. You have to fight these xenophobic anti foreigner sentiment on the other hand you have to reflect. That there is no consensus in the societies in europe about how many migrants could be could be. Coming into one country so let me come back now to this question of incentives and disincentives because that in fact was in your Opening Statement on a merry that you said we wont to combat illegal migration by letting people die at the borders is that in fact what you think salvini is doing trying to disincentive ice people. To calm and clearly you dont think it works in that case irregular migration of course im im to my family and i dont i dont think anybodys illegal but absolutely i mean what what we should not falling to attend us and they have a particular agenda and they have. Been using i mean calling United States collins a in italy as well in in countries where they dont have that many refuse or migrants coming. Its an agenda and we we need to find a way how we kind how can we do with the Civil Society and tell them not to fall into these agenda which she is dina mice in the the the fight of migrants exist and basically what we should be working on what we should be doing is to kind of bring by the dignity to migrants which weve been using in the past three years for political agendas. So so of course hes not right i am so so. The the problem here is that the the more with fun under discussion whether see watch the the right thing or not of course it is theres no point out of the spine. I mean but the process that is going to continue out of fear i dont think that he is going to stop there. Because i mean theyre theyre gonna continue coming and whos going to be out there whos going to risk their their their their personal liability in and and their organizations to going continue rescuing. For examample there is this a boat a gererman board call y you and tell who ws just really such a thing this week after two years of being kept by italian government. So they couldnt go out to all parading them in the dirt Mediterranean Sea for two years i mean we would be supporting somebody should be these organizations were actually doing. The most of these sent act of humanity. So from that let me just. Pronounced one thing i mean if you look at stuff just italy from finland to greece from the netherlands to denmark two fronts and all these countries there had been a a backlash of the two thousand fifteen backers from from government saying. And they took over the the rhetoric of reviving pop is we need to secure our borders we need stricter policies and so on and so on because the pressure from all the societies. Were just growing on these governments. So then do you have any sympathy for italys position hasnt the e. U. In many ways let italy bear the brunt of the refugee crisis at least in the mediterranean. Yeah i mean theres two important points that i did that i think are worth making in this debate im. First is i dont think this is a room a crisis of refugee numbers this is a crisis of refugee a commendation and refugee policy. This is why we experience the backlash after two thousand fifteen because the e. U. Hasnt been able to practice real solidarity. And provide an infrastructure that helps countries stem the influx of migrants i dont think its americans themselves. Wed have to take a hard look not at securing our borders and making sure fewer migrants com we have to take a hard look at european solidarity. And how we will manage refugee influxes in the future because this is not a story that is over now this is going to be something that we will deal with in the future as well. And if we just close our eyes and say okay ones if we keep the refugees outside of european borders than our problems solved this is not the case. And the second point i want to make is. This idea of this symbolic discussion about saving refugees from the mediterranean and and this is why were incentivizing them this is closing our eyes towards the real issues that drive migration the real push factors. Its not the push factor or the pull factor if we save people in the mediterranean the real push factors are economic. Are security our Climate Change our Technological Progress and if we keep having those place holder debates about a few both saving lives which is in humanitarian imperative which youuve set. The stop. Talking about thehe real issues and this is what we have to fight we have. To push these these placeholder debabates away and Start Talking about the real push and pull factors and this is not what we do with this. At see whats debate so essentially cillian is saying that this is very much about the fact that once refugees do arrive in europe or in the United States we are not doing enough as you said to accommodate them to integrate them to process their their asylum applications. And so it interestingly enough most of that actually was a point that was made by savini in relation to the sofia missions sophia is enable mission. Of the e e. U. I i t think an operation since twenty fifteenn the idea was to trtry to stop human smuggling. In the mediterranean particularly coming out of libya but elsewhere as well so vinny has complained that the mission has turned into essentially a refugee rescue mission in which the refugees are than simply. Deposited on italian territory rather than being distributed across the e. U. In accordance with existing in you what does he have a point. I think sophia rescued forty four thousand people in the mediterranean and and as i said the the humanitarian imperative is always so strong you say you have to rescue these people on the other hand. I already described what i would call the dilemma. The more the route you rescue the more people feel they will be rescued. I think there is a preventive eyes theyre illegal migration if there is i mean theyre clearly they all and get the connecting themself they all of them felt the mobiles and talking about how to come to your because thats what they want. And i dont blame them that they want to come but its its its just let how the system works i mean i would love to have. A common europeaean refugee poly and would love to have under the muck of the german chancellor try to have it for four years. Every week every month every day was saying we need that we need a fair quota system and so on and so on and she couldnt get because europe is not united in refugee policy. So this is yes youre right we need one but we dont have. The discussion about incentives and disincentives has played a very big role in the us debate as well so lets now turn to the situation on the southern border of the United States. And take a look at the at the problems theyre refugees are drowning there as well as here as a recent photo showed two very powerful effect. This image has circulated around the world. Oscar ramirez and his nearly two year old daughter and you. Were trying to flee when they drowned in the pool to read every grande. They came from el salvador ading for the United States but like so many others they didnt make it. Home in el salvador oscars mother rosa ramirez clings to belongings and photos of her son and granddaughter. And the demons that had come in monday. The last thing he said to me on saturday. Was mama mama i love you they are moment full time worry with fine we then send us that was his last message. The lady is in fact. Even if the father and daughter how to cross the river things