Secretary Suella Braverman calling for an overhaul of the International Asylum system, has provoked Strong International reaction. She has been previously criticized at home for saying that britain was undergoing an invasion of migrants. Her latest remarks have been rejected by the u. N. , Amnesty International, and migrants rights groups. Does she have any support in britain and elsewhere . We will be putting these questions and more to our guests shortly. But, this report on the background of bravermans commercial speech. Reporter britains home secretary has sought to tempt in several congressional policies to stop migration. This time Suella Braverman attacked a major pillar of postwar humanitarian law while speaking to members of a think tank in washington, d. C. This Legal Framework rooted in the 1951 u. N. Refugee convention. It was created to help resettle people fleeing persecution following the horrors of world war ii and the holocaust, and was initially, at least, centered around europe. It was an incredible achievement of its age. But more than 70 years on, we now live in a completely different time. Reporter the u. K. Government has been trying to change its a for sylumseekers by sending some to rwanda to wait for their decision on their application to stay in the u. K. That has been ruled illegal by the uks court of appeals. Now, the government awaits a Supreme Court decision on whether its plan for tackling small boat crossings is legal. Immigration is a Major Political issue for the conservative party, that is struggling in opinion polls ahead of an election widely expected late next year. A sylumseekers are provided accommodation by the state, and that conservative government has failed to fulfill the promises disturbed the numbers arriving from mainland europe. Nearly 24,000 people have made the trip thus far this year, adding to a record backlog in asylum claims. Braverman has also described by the restrictions she would like to see. We will not be able to sustain an asylum system if in effect, simply being gay or a woman or fearful of discrimination in your country of origin is sufficient to qualify for protection. Reporter the u. S. In 1951 Refugee Convention provides the legal basis for the protection of refugees worldwide. It has been ratified by britain and about 150 other countries. States that have signed up to the Convention Must protect civilians fleeing conflict or persecution. Braverman serves in a government headed by the uks first hindu pride minister, and she is descended from indians from mauritius and kenya. She says, multiculturalism in europe has failed. Multiculturalism makes no demands of the income to into it. It has failed, because it allowed people to come to our society and live parallel lives in it. Reporter braverman spoke using the socalled complaint in the u. S. That reflect american rightwing conservative sentiments towards migrants. Border states in that country are seeing a dramatic rise in numbers of asylumseekers. But tens of thousands crossing into the country from mexico, the state of texas has declared a state of emergency. V8 the u. K. Or the u. S. , race , immigration, and multiculturalism are now controversial issues, as rightwing populism is on the rise. Mohammed lets go ahead and bring in our guests. In london is steve valdezsymonds. Hes the director of refugee and migrant rights for Amnesty International u. K. In geneva is shabia mantoo, global spokesperson for the United Nations refugee agency, unhcr. And also in london is tim bale, professor of politics at Queen Mary University of london and author of the conservative party after brexit. A warm welcome to you all, and thank you so much for joining us today on inside story. Suella braverman has taken aim at the 1951 Refugee Convention, saying that the system essentially is no longer fit for purpose. What is the response from the u. N. Refugee agency . Guest the Refugee Convention and its 1967 protocol, is one of the greatest human rights instruments to have been developed and implemented. It saved millions of lives around the world over the past 70 years, and it embodies the ageold universal principle of asylum. So it is as critical now as it was when it was drafted, and one only needs to turn on the news to see the crises around the world that continue to force people to flee their homes, and to see how those people have access to safety and protection. If we look at, for instance, the crisis this year in sudan or in ukraine last year, where millions of people have been driven from their homes, it is testament to the criticality of the convention, and of the International Refugee law framework. Mohammed when you are talking about the people all around the road who are fleeing their homes, fleeing violence i want to mention something or hurt just a short while ago. I spoke to a refugee who are no and he was talking about the remarks from ms. Braverman. He told me this was really awful to see or hear. He said its not as though, from his perspective, that the countries that are signatories to the convention, that many of them are doing enough at this stage. How much concern is there if we start hearing this kind of rhetoric from other political leaders in other countries around the world. Guest just look at the global picture. We have about 85 million refugees in the world. The overwhelming majority of them, 76 which is a hugely significant figure, are being hosted in low to middle income countries. Often the neighboring countries. Refugees are essentially those that are driven from their homes, they are just fleeing in search of safety and protection and trying to access that. If we look at the global picture, it speaks to the need for more equitable responsibilitysharing when it comes to hosting and protecting refugees. It is important that all countries fulfill their obligations and abide by the international Legal Framework to protect refugees. It is really important that all countries abide by their applications. Because if we look at the global situation, it is often the most the countries that are often very challenged with resources, they are often the most generous when it comes to hosting the overwhelming majority of refugees. Mohammed steve, from your perspective and the perspective of your colleagues at Amnesty International, at a time when refugees and migrants continue to be demonized, at a time when antiimmigration and antirefugee sentiment continues to grow around the world in so many countries, how concerned are you when you hear this kind of rhetoric from ms. Braverman . Guest extremely concerned. The u. K. Has a powerful voice on the international stage, and it is being grossly abused for domestic political reasons. Ms. Braverman puts not just the human rights commitments in the u. K. And the human rights of people in the u. K. , including refugees in this country, at stake, she puts at stake the human rights of people across the world, because the country, as rich, as powerful and as stable as the u. K. , will not abate and respect its International Human rights obligations. It is extremely difficult to expect and call upon other nations elsewhere for poorer, far less stable, to do so. And of course, amongst other things, that can only create more reason for more people to need to flee seeking safety somewhere. Including because they cant find safety in other countries who refuse to abide by the rules that the u. K. Seeks to flout at this time. Mohammed let me ask a followup. Amnesty international issued a statement in response to her, that said what urgently needs to be addressed on the world stage is a glaring inequality of countries sharing responsibility for refugees, and matter in which the u. K. Is severely lacking. Just how bad is the situation in the u. K. . Guest the facts are these, the u. K. Lacks significantly behind lags significantly behind even its European Union neighbors in terms of the number of people it provides protection to, or the number of people it receives seeking protection. And europe is not a site around the world that receives a great number of refugees, as unhcr has just explained. It has very long been the case that it is far poorer, lessstable countries that have long been doing the majority of the work in hosting the worlds refugee population. So it is extremely concerning that the u. K. Should seek to question commitment to the Refugee Convention, went its commitment compared to others is already so poor. Mohammed same, these remarks from Suella Braverman, from your point of view, why has she made them, and what is behind them. Guest there are a couple of things. First thing is that Suella Braverman is very much making a pitch for the support of the right of the conservative party for potential leadership challenge after the election. I think many people resume assume the conservatives will lose that election angle into a leadership contest, and she is, to some extent, working out her territory to the populist right of the party. But it is also, frankly, in the to voters. The conservatives are desperate to put together the Winning Coalition that both jensen built in that was built, in part, on by Boris Johnson in 2018. It was built, in part, on the backs of voters in the north and midlands of england, and Suella Braverman and no doubt rishi sunak as well, think that by talking tough on migration and asylumseekers, and we see this when he struck about stopping boats as well, that there will be able to pull back those voters. By the time the election takes place in 2024, they will stand some chance of winning again. Mohammed it has been reported that there are some, even within the conservative party, that felt that Suella Braverman went too far with these remarks. Do you think that is accurate . Will she be facing backlash from within her own party . Guest definitely. There are some conservatives i think who are dismayed at this, particularly in the parliamentary party. They are already, i think, worried about the populist turned that the party has taken really since the brexit referendum. Some of the rhetoric on the small boats that we have heard from Suella Braverman and rishi sunak and other government representative is among them. Put that together with some of the rolling back of netzero that rishi sunak has been doing in the last week or so, that means a lot of the conservatives in the party are worried about the direction the party is taking. It also worried about the election impact of this. Because for every vote that this attracts, they would argue that it actually puts off another vote for whom this, if you like, illiberal populism, actually alienates. Many conservative mps are worried about losing their seats because of that. Mohammed in these controversial remarks, Suella Braverman also said that the threshold had been lowered over time in terms of judging who meets the criteria defined in the 1951 u. N. Refugee agency and. What does the unhcr say to that . Guest the refugees are people fleeing for their lives and threats to their livelihood, their freedom. When we are talking about the Refugee Status determination process, its an individualized process. We have to look at the individual circumstances and the experiences and the threats and the dangers that people are appearing, and that is what is really important. So its not helpful to have a sweeping categorization. Because it depends on the individual experience and the circumstances. So when were looking at the global picture and receive refugees, they are people fleeing conflict, horrific Human Rights Violations, persecution based on their orientation, or in other identity factors, could be race, religion or nationality , membership of a particular social group or political opinion. We have seen the stories and the experiences of people that have fled for their lives fleeing really horrific conflicts and Human Rights Violations. The need is for a more compassionate and humane response for people in that position because it is not a voluntary choice. No one wants to be a refugee or exposed to such horrendous circumstances in their lives. What we need is compassion and also relief air, expedient and efficient slm processes to determine who is in need of protection. Who is a refugee and who isnt. Enter galvanized solutions. Mohammed ms. Braverman also claimed that gay a people and women must face more correct in her to qualify as being a refugee. This has been challenged by many charities. What is amnestys response to that statement . Guest she has been very misrepresentative of the convention itself in her words. She is choosing to suggest, imply that gay people, that women, refugees, are somehow being advantaged and in the in refugee determination processes and in the convention itself. Which is very far from true. Discrimination is the important consideration, but it is persecution that is the test. That she very well knows. Whether that meets the threshold that the u. K. Asked last year, laws to raise inappropriately in terms of its own determination procedures. She is targeting a minority of people who largely disadvantaged people in the whole Refugee Convention scheme, to penalize them as a way of attacking the convention itself. I think the whole thing is utterly shameful. Mohammed team, it looks like you were reacting to some of what he was saying. Please go ahead. Guest i think she is absolutely right when he says that this is really an attempt for desire from the part of the u. K. To reside on the part of the u. K. From a very longheld assumption that the u. K. Would uphold the convention indeed would be seeking to make sure that other countries did as well. So as far as the kind of moral leadership of the u. K. On this particular issue, to some extent, Suella Braverman has damaged that, possibly permanently. Of course, it is worth remembering that this is not necessarily the government the u. K. Will have next year. Although this is clearly a statement that would not have been made had number 10 downing street actually approved it, it is important to realize that this is not necessarily the uks position Going Forward over the next few years. If we get a different result in the next general election from the last, i think we will have a different view of this from the u. K. Government. Mohammed you mentioned there is a need for a more humane system in order to deal with this all the more effectively around the world. I want to ask you about the fact that it seems that no matter what Security Apparatus has been put in place, no matter what new agreements have been reached between countries to try to start the flow of refugees and migrants, at the end of the day, those numbers have not been decreasing, correct . Guest if we look at the global picture, there is a correlation between increased displacement and situations of conflict. Instability, or perpetuating continuous Human Rights Violations that cause people to flee. What is really needed is to look at the the root causes that forced people to flee their homes. They really need to be addressed. Because this is really a result, a consequence of political decisions, or political actions. There needs to be strengthened efforts to resolve conflicts and prevent anyone from occurring, but also to address mixed movements. We know the people on the move, often it is a mix between refugees, people who are fleeing conflict or persecution or Human Rights Violations, but also migrants and people who who might choose to to leave or or have to leave for a variety of other reasons. So it is important to look at this from a very holistic approach, and prevent by addressing the root causes, but also responding in a humane manner which can include ensuring we have enough strength and capacity to rescue people in distress at land or at sea. We have so many tragedies happening in various maritime movements across the world, not just in the mediterranean. If you look at in asia. Someone says we have to enhance the searchandrescue capacities. We have to make sure slm systems are sufficiently resolved so that they are crucial in being able to determine who is in need of protection. And then looking for Humane Solutions for those who are determined to not be refugees. That includes returns to countries with safety and dignity, but then also strengthening inclusion in countries that are hosting refugees. Many of those countries that are hosting the majority of refugees , require support in the form of Development Assistance for humanitarian support. That will also ensure that people who have led for safety can Access Service education and health care and be able to work and Access Protection in two countries. And importantly, we need more responsibility in sharing information around the world. Ensuring more resettlement places for refugees, ensuring more Financial Resources are channeled into the countries on the frontlines. It requires a holistic approach to look at a situation and really stand the issue of people being forced to leave their homes in the first place. Mohammed many times in the past, you have advocated for countries to be integrating those refugee communities more and more, to be welcoming those migrant communities, to allow them to work and participate more in society. But i want to ask, what is the response, one unh is c