Speaker mccarthy with another new. Neil so tonight, a wake up call. It is bound to be the hottest year ever. What can we still do about it . Author john valiant helps us find some hope against this heat. This is american voices. We begin this hour with a warning from gop voters. Donald trump is a loser. It is a message republican candidate, will hurd, is preaching to anyone who will listen. And iowa heard predicted that if his party sticks by the twice indicted, twice impeached former president , that The Grand Party will get what it caught the last time. Donald trump is not running for president make America Great again. Donald trump is running to stay out of prison. And if we elect i know, i know, i know. I know. Listen, i know the truth, the truth is hard. But if we elect donald trump, we are willingly giving joe biden four more years in the white house and america cant handle that. Will hurd got booed telling the truth. Telling the truth. That proved the latest on the gop voters are not ready to move on from trump. At what cost . Could trumps mounting legal troubles helped turn the needle . Well, you know, the bulwark, he writes this. One Classic Wisecrack of the trump era is lol, nothing matters. The idea gleaned from bitter experiences that nothing trump does, no matter how bad it is, will turn republicans against him. Theyre locked in. But are they . And you survey found 25 of republicans now think trump broke the law with his handling of classified documents. That is up 16 points from october. Just months after the fbi search at maralago was conducted. That could make things even harder for trump in a possible rematch with President Biden. Hes already lost to biden once. To win in 2024, he will need to bring more voters into his camp. Will Republican Voters who cast their ballots for trump twice already, yes, weve done that, ultimately admit that he is a proven loser with a whole lot more baggage than he had the last time . Maybe. Check out this new political ad calling for a baggage free gop candidate. No matter how much i loved what he did when he was president , i just dont think hes electable at this point. If donald trump is the nominee, he will lose. Criminal charges january six indictments too much of a polarizing figure. The Republican Party needs to move on from donald trump. I think we need somebody that appeals to the independents. Get someone into that white house. We have to put someone in the dual election that can win. Joining me now, jonathan, editor of the bulwark and tom nichols, staff writer at the atlantic. I was really looking forward to this one conversation. This is going to be fun. Jonathan, we are showing the gop nomination as trump is to lose. The general election is a different ball game here. What is your thought on the Republican Base, understanding that sticking with trump actually means they are not going to win against biden next year. You know, michael, i dont know if that is what it means. This is the terrifying part. Will hurd makes the argument that the reason republicans have to move away from trumps because if they nominate trump to lose, that would be nice to think, i would think that the nominee, a guy who has been indicted twice and will be indicted again, it would lead to him losing. Hes five points ahead of where he was in 2020 against biden. You look at the polling average and he is right about even with biden. Im absolutely not convinced that even a trump under criminal indictment is a surefire loser against biden. Because of the electoral college, i think that hes got a 35 to 40 floor on his chances no matter what. And that is what is really scary. What we need is that we need guys like will hurd just saying the reason not to vote against trump is because hes dangerous for america. Dont support trump because he is dangerous for america. Not because it would give joe biden four more years. What is he afraid of . Another bipartisan Infrastructure Bill . That is ridiculous. Wait a minute. The brother got booed. He spoke the truth last night and he got booed. I mean, this base is telling him you dont want to hear it. We dont want to hear it. So i mean, what does it take, what do you do, how do you move . Its not so much a question of moving them off of trump, they are not going anywhere, but how do you create that for the other 65 of the Republican Base that it seems to have largely checked out of this process to get them to check back in to eclipse trump. To be very honest i dont think that it is possible. There is a narrow chance of it, because we are an active god away, and donald trump is the old, he could have a health event as much as joe biden could, it is possible the next indictment will magically make trump unpalatable for some reason to voters. It is not worth giving up. I dont think anybody should ever give up. Who passed has the last word. But you have to be serious about not laying a predicate that is going to make it harder for biden to beat trump in the general election. The idea is that we have to stop trump at all costs. Do that, but dont in the process, create offramps for Republican Voters to stick with trump in 2024 by pretending that joe biden is the Second Coming of karl marx. There is that. Tom, you have nbc news reporting that reads quote, most of the 2024 Candidate Field has been the past two and a half validating or Turning A Blind Eye to trumps false claims that he won the 2020 election. Priming the Republican Base to believe that trump is a proven winner against President Biden. Now that we have only a few months, you know, in front of us to try to undo that perception, that base appears reluctant to press the case. Where does this go . Where does this leave us at this point to what jonathan and i were just saying about this base holding their hands to their ears not wanting to hear the truth . But the candidates are the ones, i think, that can make a difference. But they dont seem to want to. Two really important points, one is, as jonathan pointed out, everybody is making the wrong argument. They are making a transactional argument. It is not that donald trump is so bad, it is that he could lose. And then we have joe biden, and just remind everybody, of course, well, when david duke was running for governor in 1991, george h. W. Bush came out and said this guy is not one of us. He came within a whisker of actually endorsing the democrat publicly. You didnt see bush coming out and saying you gotta be careful, dont want edwards to win that govern chip. He came out and he said the right thing. This guy is a klansmen, nobody should vote for him, hes not a republican. Nobody is doing that, they are saying well, you know, i know you like trump, i understand why, but hill probably lose. You are talking to people who think he won the last time around. They dont think he is a proven loser. And that is the other problem with this, and you are making an argument that people just fundamentally dont believe him. I think where we are is back in 2016 where you have all these cowardly republicans who say, you know, once trump implodes, im going to scoop up all of those voters. They are all going to come home to me. That didnt happen in 2016, its not going to happen now. If trump somehow implodes in the primary, and probably it would be a great opportunity for joe biden, but this notion that, you know, but for donald trump they would be flocking to tim scott, were nikki haley, it is ridiculous. It is laughable. So you got that piece, tom, what about the legal troubles . They already started to overshadow the sum coming election. They are going to continue to do so as more and more indictments start to pop over the next few months. What does this mean . You are now scattering, you know, this in between primary that are kicking off in january. Debates that are going to be occurring amongst republican candidates, what are we in store for a politically as these legal issues begin to really percolate a lot more, and do you think that they kind of feed the narrative that weve been talking about, or for folks to set them aside . Unless Republican Leaders change course, it Means Nothing for the Republican Party. A lot of the general election where i think that energized democrats and a lot of disgusted independents and swing voters are just going to, theyve had enough of donald trump, and trump fatigue is a real thing. For good reason. But im sorry to say that for millions of americans, being under federal indictment and soon to be under indictment for what looks like overthrowing the government of the United States, it just doesnt mean anything to them. I am from massachusetts. We are the guys that once elected a guy who was in jail. You know, this is an old tradition from the 1930s and i just dont think it will matter much to republicans, because they take that as a signal that trump is doing things right. We have a minute left. I want to get your thoughts on ron desantis who is floating this idea that if you become president , he will pardon trump. Is this a missed opportunity for the sentence once again to carve out that space by the donors want him to carve out to go after trump . Yes, it is. At this Point Desantis has been damaged goods. Its exactly what tom says. Imagine if we are at the Augusta Beating Trump decides not to show up. The moderator asks the republican candidates about the indictments against him. Those republican candidates with the exception of Chris Christie are going to sit around and mouth the same defenses that trump himself will be making. That is like the weird topsyturvy world that we live in where not only are the other republicans on going to go after trump for the indictments, we are going to defend him against them and that is why i dont think that they make any difference in the base. Desantis has missed his chance, and i think it is because he never he always thought worse comes to worse, i could finish in second and run in 2028. I am a young guy, i just left the Governors Mansion in 2026, and that, you know, ask Chris Christie what happens when you miss your moment. History presents its moments once to people. Never twice. And it is a huge mistake. He should have gone for starting six months ago, ten months ago, and instead he was afraid of being on the wrong side of the Republican Base and maybe correctly. Maybe he said this is a cold and i know i will never be able to shake people loose of it. So im just going to abide my time. Maybe that is the correct judgment. But it doesnt mean that hes never really playing to win. Not playing to win. And that is what the game is all about. Youve gotta play to win. Jonathan, tom, thank you gentlemen, i really appreciate you. Next, trumps legal hurricane and signs it might get worse for the former president. Plus, hardline republicans poised to hold the country hostage over the culture war. We are talking about a looming federal spending fight just weeks away. But first, to Richard Louis with the other big stories we are tracking this hour on msnbc. Hi richard. Michael, good evening to you, Breaking News from haiti for us. A nurse from New Hampshire and her child were reportedly kidnapped. The nonprofit she works for said that they were taken from their camp near portauprince thursday. The u. S. Department is saying that it is working with haitian authorities. It happened the same day the u. S. Ordered government personnel to leave haiti amid civil unrest. Military leaders overthrew the for the west african country, allies are not recognizing its new government as of now. And more than 110 million americans are under heat advisories. Storms will cool things off in the northeast tonight, those in the south will have at least a few more days of heat. More american voices for you after this break. This b er. With its customizable options chain, easytouse tools and Paper Trading to help sharpen your skills, you can stay on top of the market from wherever you are. E trade from morgan stanley. 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Powered by The Next Generation 10g network and with 99. 9 reliability. Plus one line of free mobile for an entire year. Its the mobile made free eventhappening now. Get started for just 49. 99 a month. Plus, ask how to get one free line of unlimited mobile. No indictment is a good comcast business, powering possibilities. Indictment, this was another bad week for former president donald trump. Thursday, special counsel jack smith slap trump with three additional charges on the classified documents case, they include an allegation that trump sought to delete Surveillance Video and rooms with boxes kept at maralago. Things may get even worse for trump. In the coming, days a grand jury is in Fulton County georgia is expected to decide whether not to indict trump over his attempt to overturn the results of the 2020 election. A big indication of that may drop soon. Barricades were propped up in front of the Fulton County courthouse this week. Attorney mark zaid joins me now. Mark, lets talk about the latest in this documents case. And how damning are these allegations. Particularly when it comes to the attempt to cover up . Objectively, one thing, no surprise. Its very consistent context that we have seen all along. To the supporters, i dont think they probably care or make any difference with respect to them. By mid evidentiary standpoint, Additional Information that is documentary and nature, Text Information that it appears is evidentiary that they already, they the government possess. So there is not a he said she said types and reo. It is more what on this fire so to speak. What do you make of, the new defendant in maralago. The maralago Property Owner manager, rather. Carlos de oliveira. Talk about what his Indictment Signals and what here sense if prosecutors see an opportunity to get the oliveira to testify against trump . These are all self inflicted wounds to all three of the defendants quite frankly. It is their clear there are other witnesses named in the indictment. The assumption would be that those individuals are cooperating whether theyre doing so willingly or just to avoid being the subject of an indictment. Its not a fun thing to be. In the meantime, throughout the process, you know into the day of the trial, any one of these witnesses could start to cooperate. Could turn evidence against donald trump and be a cooperating witness. I imagine obviously to indict him is to increase the pressure. The new information that comes from that with respect to request to destroy the videotapes is very significant because the reality is that there is no objective lee reason for why those checks are true that anyone would want to destroy the videotapes if there wasnt something incriminating on them. We know there is incriminating on. Them that revealed the movement of the boxes and gave the Justice Department hard evidence to show box was here, box that was not there. And then box was back. Yet not, all of them are there. That makes up a lot of the other counts. I want to swing this down to georgia. We have a minute left. Get your thoughts on that. We see the barricades going up outside the courthouse. When grand jury is going to be seated possibly as early as this week. What kind of timeline could that mean. What do we expect there . Particularly, the added piece of rudy giuliani. Conceding that the statements he made is false. This is becoming a little bit more dynamic. I mean, it