Have you heard of the Rosemary Woods stretch . It is named after this woman, Rosemary Woods. The longtime secretary of richard nixon. Woods became her career with nixon in 1950, went long before his time with the white house. She was so close to the family the nixons daughters referred to her as aunt rose. In 1974, route woods was thrust into the National Spotlight during the watergate scandal when investigators discovered a Mysterious 18 and a half gap on one of the tapes handed over from the nixon white house. The tape was believed to contain a conversation between president nixon and his Chief Of Staff three days after the watergate breakin. Woods took responsibility for that gap. She tried to explain it away as an accident. As she tells, it she was simply transcribing the tape at her desk when the phone rang. As she reached for the phone, she mistakenly struck the wrong key on the recorder while her foot was on the machines pedal. The motion ended up somehow destroying the tapes content. She was later asked to demonstrate that stretch, resulting in this now infamous photo. Not many people bought her story, and its largely six factored that nixon was behind the deletion. Why am i telling you about this . It is something that Carlos De Oliveira might want to google. As of thursday, de oliveira became to the latest character in Donald Trumps story legal saga. When he was named as the third defendant in the first ever federal criminal case against former president. The doj hit him with four charges, including conspiracy to obstruct justice, making false statements, and corruptly altering, destroying, or mutilating a document or other objects. In echoes of nixon and Rosemary Woods, he is accused of trying to delete Surveillance Camera footage at maralago. The 56 year old for more than a decade, rising up to the ranks rising up the ranks to the position of property manager. Deliver is not your typical member of the ex president s inner circle. People close to him describe as a person who came to the u. S. From portugal to seek a better life. That is one of quote, he is not familiar with how the government here works. He was probably just being loyal to his boss, who is paying his bills. The family feels like he got trapped. De oliveira is set to appear in front of a miami judge tomorrow for his arraignment. Just today, nbc news learned that he is not yet secured a floridabased lawyer. The new Superseding Indictment for federal prosecutors describing it as a plot by trump, deal of era, and trumps, socalled Diet Coke Aid Walt Nauta to delete Video Footage from the maralago Security Cameras last summer. According to the indictment, in june of 20 2020, the doj communicated to trumps lawyers that a grand jury was issuing a subpoena for the Security Footage from maralago. The next day, the former president asked to seat nauta. Not to was strike scheduled to go to illinois, but in instead flew to palm beach, florida. Once he touched down, he met with de oliveira, who met that told him, quote, the boss wanted the server containing Security Footage deleted. After that exchange, he met twice with nauta near bushes on the Northern Edge of the road sorts property. We should note that the indictment doesnt say whether they were actually able to delete any video. This is not the kind of stuff that you typically read about in federal indictments. Its more the stuff of a netflix Espionage Thriller like the night agent, or a spy novel involving bungling spies, not smoother james bond types. As for the bond villain himself, trump in denied the latest charges on where else his truth social site just this morning, he blasted the charges, writing that he never told anybody to delete the footage and handed over the taped to the feds, or as he called them, thugs willingly. Clay case closed. The classified documents case is hardly trumps biggest legal challenge. On friday, we were all bracing for an indictment in an entirely different and bigger case from the feds. Jack smiths investigation into trumps efforts to overturn the 2020 election. All indications show that the indictment there is still imminent with many legal experts speculating that it could come as soon as this tuesday. And then theres georgia. Tomorrow, monday, the 31st of july marks the first day of a threeweek period in which it is highly success to that Fulton County d a fani willis will bring charges against trump and his allies for their Election Interference efforts. As trumps legal cases mount, so to the costs. According to new reporting from the washington post, trumps political groups spent more than 40 million on legal fees in the first half of 2023 alone to defend him, his advisors, and others. That total is more than any other expense that the pack has occurred during trumps 2024 president ial campaign. According to federal filings from earlier this month, it is also more than Trumps Campaign raised in the Second Quarter of 2023. People are throwing any money to trump to use in this way. Amazing. These growing legal troubles are not costing the money, is costing the perhaps something even more valuable, time. In total, donald trump faces five trials between now and november. Remember, that is before jack smith is expected for the indictment, before fani willis is expected at fully Fulton County indictment. A leading candidate, splitting his time between the Campaign Trail and courtrooms. Here is what his prominent republican rival and former ally Chris Christie had to say about that split screen just this morning. I want voters to listen to this. It is most likely that by the time we are on the debate stage on august 23rd, the front runner will be out on bail in four different jurisdictions. Florida, washington, georgia, and new york. Out on bail. But the folks in Christies Party dont seem to be heeding his warnings. Despite his growing legal woes, he is still the front runner for the gops nomination. I have to ask, can american democracy really survive a president ial Election Campaign in which one of the Major Party Candidates is in the midst of so many criminal trials . What does it say about our two major parties that regardless of all of this, they are still on course to nominate for president a man that in the words of Chris Christie, is a one man crime wave. Lets discuss all of this with david anderson, A Civil Rights Attorney and former prosecutor. He is also a cnbc contributor. Glenn kershner, former federal prosecutor and msnbc legal analyst. And jill winebanks, a former assistant to Watergate Special prosecutor. Legal analyst of the cohost of sistersinlaw podcast. Thank you all for coming back on the show. Jill, i will start with you. How big of a deal is this Superseding Indictment that we have on thursday . It is a very big deal because the obstruction that is laid out there is so awful, and its so ridiculous, and its so well documented, that it really puts a different perspective on all of the rest of the crimes in the original indictment. Because they now have the iran document, and can now say that that is what he was showing, this highly classified document, to people who did not have any kind of clearance. It is really going to make the jury all of the other accusations in the indictment in a very different way. It shows that he is not even as successful as richard nixon. Richard nixon was successful in deleting 18 and a half minutes. He failed as far as we can tell. There is nothing to lead. He tried, and that is a crime. But he did not succeed. Donald trump, not as good as covering up as richard nixon. Jill, you mentioned the jury. Im going to go to glenn in a moment. He said he has confidence in any jury selected in the trump documents case. Despite my concerns that that group would be drawn from counties do you believe that a jury, a south jury containing trump voters would unanimously convict trump if the evidence is clear enough . I agree with glenn on this. I have a great faith in the jury system. Weve seen in the manafort trial, a trump juror said that i was sworn by the judge to vote only on the basis of evidence in this courtroom. I had no choice. I had to vote to convict him on every single count. But these kinds of instructions are taken very seriously. They will see in this case that the evidence is overwhelming that they cannot look away from it. There is a risk, but i think that in this case, they will be voting to convict. Glenn, today, we learned that although de oliveira secured council in d. C. , he has failed to find representation in florida. How does that complicate plans for tomorrows arraignment . Is this yet another delay in the case . It could be. It depends on if the judge appoints temporarily local council who is qualified to appear for purposes of the de oliveiras arraignment. Lets hope that the judge doesnt continue this kick the can down the road, because she really can appoint somebody temporarily to stand in until de oliveira gets what we are all hoping, conflict free council. That will make all the difference in the world. If he gets an attorney who is truly zealously representing his interests instead of being on team trump, it seems the de oliveira should cooperate. There is really no reason for him not to save himself. I hope that he hears the rumble of the ongoing apparently already posting that i did not tell anybody to delete a server. What hes done is called the oliveira a liar. I hope that de oliveira gets zealous representation, it begins to explore cooperation with the prosecutors. Glenn, how dare you suggest Donald J Trump with throw an employee under the bus . How dare you suggest that. That is shocking to hear you suggest such a thing. David, colin mentions conflicts of interest. I mention trump and his Associates Legal fees have cost him 42 if theyve already secured them a lawyer in d. C. , as they already did with walt nauta, the diet coke aid. How much of this is a blatant Conflict Of Interest in your view . I think quite a bit of it is, mehdi. Heres the reason why, if youre representing either of them, you have to give them advice that is best for them. The longer this goes on, the best advice for them is to flip on trump. There is no way around. Typically you get a new indictment if youre representing somebody. Their question to you is, hey, am i looking at more time . They answer here is not really, you are already facing so many charges. It is far more likely that youre adding another defendant, another mouth that you have to hope stays closed. If it flips, and again, for the two people involved, given how much the money is going to be for them, if they cut off the pipeline of legal fees, they have invested interest in taking representation against trump. A lawyers probably going to tell them that if they are being paid for by trump. We assume the 80 employee who is told to delete the stuff and got his own lawyers, the one that has flipped and helped with the indictment so far. Jill, you worked on the watergate case. A few moments ago, i mentioned the infamous Rosemary Woods stretch showing the lengths that some people are willing to go to defend a corrupt bosses actions. And yet, today, the defense is way beyond and lets listen to foxes greg got filed, and listen to what he had to say about the Superseding Indictment. Surveillance cameras . Whats wrong with that . Whats wrong with that . Are those yours . Why cant you clear them . I dont understand that. Jill, at least nixons defenders didnt say he was fine to delete the tape. They had the decency to claim it was accidental. Yes. You cannot delete anything that has been subpoenaed. They were on notice of the subpoena two days before it got there. The attempt happened in the consequences of the request for the documents. Once they are subpoenaed, it is obstruction of justice to tamper with them, or to attempt to tamper with them. Lets keep in mind that the attempt is just as much of a crime as the success. There is no question from what we are reading that that is what the evidence is going to show, that there was an attempt. It is a question of nauta being the one that i would really want to flip. He had the direct conversation with trump. He can say that trump said to me, and when i went down to talk to de oliveira, i said to him that the cost the boss, and he knew exactly who i meant, donald trump. He is the one who is really important. De oliveira really puts their screws to nauta. Together, there are a really powerful team. I would love a future historians have to write that the first president to go to prison went to prison because the aid who got Him Diet Coke flipped on him. Glenn, we have seen a big few names in trumps legal Circle Facing forms of accountability for efforts after january 6th. We saw jen ellis getting in trouble in colorado for her lies that she had to admit to. Cindy powell has backed away from some of her claims. Rudy giuliani lost his law license this week, admitted that he lied about the actions of two Georgia Election workers, ruby freeman and shaye moss. What do you think is the importance of going after trump s lawyers to get some accountability that way . Yes. The lawyers are going to be some very important witnesses against donald trump. I hasten to add usually trumps lawyers dont testify against their own clients. Except when the client in lists the lawyer to be part and parcel of a fraud. I think that it is interesting to me, mehdi, ordinarily when were investigating these large scale and conspiracy cases, what we see and what i used to do as a prosecutor is tried to flip people over time. Turn them into cooperating witnesses. Have them entered guilty pleas, and cooperate. Usually you see that pattern emerge publicly. I find it a curiosity that we have found we have seen no people of consequence charged and developed as cooperating witnesses. At least not publicly. It may very well be that mark meadows has entered into a contractual agreement with the government to become a cooperator. Maybe he has not entered his guilty plea yet, maybe he has. I still find it very curious that we do not have any Marquee Names that have flipped. That is unusual it. Leads me to conclude the perhaps, jack smith is keeping his powder dry and we are going to see a Sizeable January 6th indictment very soon. I still find it a curiosity. It would be phenomenal if mark meadows has done that. Former white house Chief Of Staff, certainly no diet coke aid, he is a big deal. David, last word to you. When it comes to Election Interference, when it comes to the 16 case, we talked about this in the abstract. Democracy, overturning elections. We cannot forget that the reason we are here is because donald trump and one of the charges we believe might come up against him, he talks about in the target letter. The deprivation of rights. Donald trump and his campaign did not want votes from mostly black citizens and mostly black areas of key Battleground States to count. I worry that were losing sight of that. I agree 100 . As we have these conversations about prosecuting a former president , it is meaningful to think that one of the potential charges that he might be facing stands from the kkk act of 1871. That is conspiring to deprive people of a free exercise of a constitutional right, here that wright being the right to vote. We are talking about that in a future prosecution perhaps in washington, and were talking about it when we go down to georgia. It ties back into one of the first things that you started asking about. Since were on the topic of civil rights. If we learned anything from the civil rights era, and lets take the representative as an example. He was assassinated in his driveway. They had to try his killer three different times before they got a final conviction. It goes to show that you can win any case if you can pick the right jury. Here, we are talking about a jury chosen by a judge, even appointed in a state that he won twice, and counties are heavily favored. The flipside is,s lawyers are going to say that the minute you cant pay my bill, i am out. So far, thats been 40 million. It is only going to go up as litigation continues. 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