Achilles heel of knowledge. Jack smith must prove Beyond A Reasonable Doubt that on the night of january 5 and into january 6, that donald trump knew that he had lost the election. And reading through the indictment, i didnt see anything new which would actually be able to establish that. And just within the last hour, trump posted about todays events writing im now going to washington, d. C. To be arrested for having challenged the corrupt, rigged and stolen election. It is a great honor because im being arrested for you. He also wrote, i need one more indictment to ensure my election. Joining us now, sasha burns live in bedminster, new jersey. Tom winter is also covering the arraignment. And also peter baker is here with us. As well as Chuck Rosenberg, former u. S. Attorney, senior fbi official and an msnbc contributor. So weve been looking at these live pictures from the sky over bedminster. We know that he needs to be here in d. C. By 4 00 this afternoon which is three hours from thousand. What can you tell us about the schedule and anything you know about the moves Behind Closed Doors there . Reporter were expecting him to depart at any moment here. And while we here are anticipating this moment with real serious gravity here, these charges really saying so much about the state of our nation right now, what weve learned, what our colleagues are reporting from sources Behind Closed Doors here at bedminster, the mood is south of shrugging off the charges, that trump has largely been resigned but defiant. And that this is not an indictment that has come with any sort of shock, that he was expecting this. This is an indictment that was very predictable and that the flavor of this has felt different for the inner circle because it is now indictment number three with a fourth one coming. Some allies even saying that three indictments, four indictments are better than one for the former president because with one indictment, you can focus more on the details whereas with three or four, the details really get muddled and the framing of a Justice System that is out to get the former president that is out to get his allies and supporters, it is easier to have folks rally around sort of this Weaponized System as they have been framing it rather than really dig into the substance of what this indictment and others actually have, you know the meat of the matter here. And so while we anticipate this historic moment, him traveling down to d. C. As you said in a way that he has never traveled there before, the president himself has been golfing, he has been chatting with folks. Even the night after the indictment, he had dinner with fox news executives. This is not something that is shocking to him anymore, it has become sort of a new reality for the former president that he is now using to build momentum for his campaign. Former prosecutor as much as they try to shrug it off in terms of their affect and politics of it all, the witnesses and the issues that were mentioned in this indictment, including mike pence who gets to the heart of what parlatore was saying, just that there is plenty of evidence about his knowledge and knowing that he was, you know he had lost the election from his own Vice President and this is not just focused on the events of january 6 or 5. Thats right. So first principal, prosecutors dont put a word or sentence into an indictment unless they believe that they can prove it in a court of law. That being true, the words, sentences and paragraphs in this indictment are significant. They make for a compelling case. I also dont think that the case turns on any one witness. Ive heard a lot of talk about former Vice President pence being a star witness. Yes and no. He is an important witness. But there are many important witnesses ive seen very few cases that rise or fall on the testimony of a single person. And as alleged in the indictment, there is a whole bunch of people that had candid conversations with mr. Trump, told him that he had lost and told him that he had no basis in law or fact to submit fake electors to try to steal the election. So the evidence to me seems compelling. The case of course is compelling. Now, i will also tell you that good prosecutors dont talk about slam dunks and dont guarantee wins. Juries can do anything. And we understand that. And so when you walk into court, you walk in two things that you hope. A strong case and a dose of humility. But if you want to talk about, peter, mike pence because he is somebody who has been in The Public Eye for a long time as weve talked about on in program and many other, he was very loyal to donald trump for a very long time. And yet he has been very clear recently about the Pressure Campaign that donald trump brought to bear. Let me play just a little clip from him as a reminder. Im a student of american history. And first time i heard in early december somebody suggest that as Vice President i might be able to decide which votes to reject and which to accept, i knew that it was false. Our founders had just won a War Against A Kinged a last thing they would have done was unilateral authority in any one person to decide who would be the next president. And trump posted about that, he said i feel badly for mike pence who is attracting no crowd, enthusiasm or loyalty from people who as a member of the Trump Administration should be loving him. He didnt fight against Election Fraud. That is again in the court of public opinion. If it gets to it, what kind of witness do you think mike pence will be . Well, i think a strong witness. He may not be the sole important witness, but he has a credibility because his story has been consistent and he is not known as a trump hater, right . He cant be characterized as somebody with a political ax to grind against his former running mate and the person who made him Vice President in the first place. And he was loyal to him. And there is donald trump he came out of his home at bedminster, he is getting in the car as we said, he has a little less than three hours before he is scheduled to be in court here. Just really a few blocks from the capitol. There are so many things that he will see, he will experience, he is used to making this trip as we said, but the trip would be usually to the white house as president. He visited bedminster often, peter, and now he may even go near or on some of the streets where he walked in the inaugural parade. But this moment is so different. Well, it is. And it does have gravity as we were just saying. He has already been indicted twice. Hes gone through this before, but it was in new york and south florida. This is the nations capital. And in this courthouse as you say a couple blocks from the United States capitol where the mob attacked on january 6, 2021, just a few blocks from the white house where he lived for four years, there is a sense of moment in history in watching him make this journey and watching him face a Magistrate Judge to enter a plea presumably of not guilty. And peter, we talk about this denial of knowing that he had lost the election, just to recapitulate, the intime mentions all the other officials. Head of national intelligence, former Attorney General bill barr certainly before he quit, as well as people around him. You mentioned his family and his white house chief of staff, his white House Counsel and others. Yeah, and i think what jack smith has done is make the case that he knew and if not he certainly had reason to know because he was told time and time again not by democrats, not by liberals, not by his opponents, but by the people who worked to reelect him, who he had chosen himself to put in position of high power and authority and ignored it. They told him specific allegations were wrong. When you say this thing about is just not true and then he goes out and repeats this public any way, so jack smith is taking all of this information and saying he knew it was not true. And it is without a doubt that what is true, what is not true is the key part of this because it is mentioned, the lies are mentioned on the very first page of this indictment. But it is also again what he knew. It was interesting to hear bill barr, his former Attorney General, saying yesterday in an interview on cnn that he wasnt sure, but now he feels pretty confident that donald trump knew that he indeed had lost the election. Do they have to prove that . They do. They have to prove intent Beyond A Reasonable Doubt to a unanimous jury. So what goes to Beyond A Reasonable Doubt . And i could do it in a couple ways. I could do it based on what you say or write, or to peters point, i could do it based on what you are told. And if you are told the same thing over and over and over by a lot of different people, that is some evidence of what you know. There is a really interesting phrase in the indictment, on page seven, the allegations that mr. Trump deliberately disregarded what he was told had an alternative way of proving intent. That is something called Willful Blindness. Right . If there is something that you should know and you overt knowing it, the metaphor would be sticking your head in the sand so you dont hear it, right, that is Willful Blindness and yet another way for the government to prove intent. We could prove it by what you say, we could also prove it by what you ignore. And one of the other things that i was thinking about when you and peter were talking about the Vice President and they can say that you are runs against donald trump now, but he would be the Vice President of the United States if the election had been won. So it was in his interests to believe what, you know, what donald trump was believing but he was going by the facts. And in fact there were others who told him the same thing, who stood to gain because they are people who work with donald trump and had he won the election, but beyond the Vice President may have been able to continue to work as well. It was that break with donald trump that has caused this Current Campaign for mike pence to be so flailing because he has lost any support among the trump maga base because they see him as a betrayer. Tom winter is at the court and looking into the evidence, witnesses who could be called into trial potentially including pence of course. What more can you tell us about some of the other witnesses . Reporter i think it was interesting that the former Vice President took contemporaneous notes in meetings leading up to january 6 and seems to have a pretty good recollection of exactly what happened this there. So that stuck out. And a lot of other evidence that weve either heard directly before, weve seen directly before, or has been talked about as the final report or hearings associated with it. And so what additional evidence has been gathered across this Law Enforcement investigation. Of course they have tools that congress would not. And i thought it was interesting to echo the comments made earlier that last night the former Attorney General of the United States bill barr seemed to indicate that there was evidence that the president , then President Trump knew what had occurred and he had in fact lost the election. And paragraph 83 if memory serves correct, where there is a discussion about military action, unrelated National Security matter, where the former president seems to indicate that that is something that will have to be dealt with after we left office. So perhaps that is the tip of the iceberg as far as that evidence goes. Weve seen obviously no hesitation by the Special Counsels office to drop superseding indictments as weve seen in the maralago case. So of course it is always possible that we could see that here. And it doesnt even begin to address the idea of six coconspiratorses who could eventually face charges. But that is also something that could potentially be waiting in the wings. And so the former president of the United States leaving bedminster on the way to get on his plane and come here to washington, d. C. From what the website says is a family oriented club located in the heart of new jersey. He is as we said going to be appearing in a courtroom not far from here. I want to go to Yasmin Vossoughian who is in washington, d. C. For us. Give us a sense of the scene where you are. Reporter were watching the footage of the former president making his way to washington. Of course security is ti the ar. Were looking at a 45 minute or so drive to Liberty International airport where he will take off and then arrive at Reagan National airport, about a ten minute drive to make his way this way. And i know we have a map to give you a lay of the land when we look at Security Measures in place awaiting the arrival of the former president. Behind me we have barricades that were erected overnight. And i was here last week, they were not in place then. They are now. They surrounds the entire courthouse. And im looking at constitution avenue, the very street that i marched up along side many of the proerts january 6, certainly proerts a seminole moment. And now the former president will be arraigned. West side of the building is closed off. And there is an underground garage where likely the former president will be entering with his motorcade. He will have to take an elevator up to the second floor. And c street is closed off to foot and car traffic. And then we make our way to 3rd street which is also cordoned off. There is still an entry to the building on 3rd street. And there is a full court docket today, so they have other trials in session and they are ongoing. And weve been told throughout the day that that will continue. Im hearing . Melee behind me, im not sure what is going on. Just to tell you this is kind of similar to what we were seeing in miami which is a gaggle of protestors here and there, but really nothing significant. Though i am seeing some raised voices behind me and well drill down on what is dg on there. If i hear anything more, ill bring it to you. And lets talk about the Free Speech Argument being made by the defense. Because there are definite limits to free speech when it comes to an underlying conspiracy. A lot of limits to free speech. So the argument may resonate in political circles, there is a technical legal word for that argument in court. Think about it, lets say peter baker and i wanted to run an Investment Fraud Scheme and we made represent fashions to you and we took your money based on those false representations. And we gambled it away at a casino. That is not protected speech, but not protected speech, there is no First Amendment protected speech designed to commit a crime. And so we want to thank chuck and peter and yasmin. Still ahead, donald trump saying he cant get a fair trial in d. C. Our Special Coverage of the indictment of donald trump continues right here on msnbc. 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Youll love swiffer. Or your money back and there was a ruling against blocking some of the documents in the january 6 committee saying that president s are not kings and the plaintiff is not president. Should the case go to trial, trumps fate will be decided by a jury in washington, d. C. Although if the former president has his way, venue will be moved. Andrew weissmann is joining us, paul butler, and both are msnbc legal analysts. We also have Christy Greenberg a former prosecutor and former deputy chief of the Southern District of new York Criminal Division and Chuck Rosenberg is still with us. So lets ask first about the art for a the argument for a change of venue. And let me tell you the procedure that is followed in any case where you have a sort of widely publicized crime and very notorious defendant. The judge will typically and im confident this is what will happen because it is what we