Someone with the temperament of donald trump is not in charge of the law in our country. Because you would be in jail. After all those years of lock her up, trump and his rapidly shrinking inner circle dont see the hypocrisy of whining about the possibility of trump going to prison. As his lawyers test out long shot defenses for the serious charges he faces. And vindication is complete in tennessee. The two expelled state reps win special elections to keep their seats. One of them, justin j. Pearson, joins me tonight. We begin tonight with one of the most striking aspects of Donald Trumps third arraignment yesterday. Besides the fact that a former president of the United States has been arraigned for crimes three times. And it is that all of his frenzied truth social posts and for all of his republican speechifying and about political prosecution, the man who showed up in a washington courtroom on thursday was basically alone. None of his family came to support him, no melania, no ivanka, jared, dawn jr. , or eric. And they cant even blame the location because they didnt show up for his florida or new york arraignments either, and technically, they live or have lived in both places. Besides his lawyers and staff, including walt nauta, his valet, and florida codefendant, trump had nobody. Its a sharp contrast to the man who stalked the red carpets and Celebrity Parties of new york decades ago. Back in his celebrity Real Estate Developer days in the 80s and 90s. His proximity to fame expanded furt during his run on nbcs The Apprentice and the follow up hit show the celebrity apprentice, were talking rappers, athletes, journalists, tv stars all were friends of his or at least hung out with him. Even bill and Hillary Clinton attended his wedding to melania in 2005. Trump had an enormous circle of people who wanted to be around him. All of that changed, of course, had he got involved in politics. His reputation took a hit soon after he embraced the racist idea of birtherism and more so after he called mexicaned rapists and of course, the Access Hollywood tape, but even after all that, he had high profile supporters including military generals and prominent businessmen who clamored to join his administration. Even mitt romney begged to get on board. Remember that humiliating dinner they had together. But donald trump drove most of them away too, thanks in no small part to the attempted coup where his supporters Beat Police Officers with flag poles and threatened the lives of officials. Allen weisselberg and Michael Cohen would end up in jail because of trump, and after the election, even his flunkies at fox were pretty much over him. Texting about how much they hate him passionately. Many of his most servile allies had their reputations ruined like rudy giuliani, who was once called americas mayor, hes become a laughingstock because of the bogus Election Fraud claims he made at trumps behest. Plus his lewd behavior and the Hair Dye Running down the face moment. And now, as trump is facing perhaps the worst moment of his life, many of those people are gone. What was once known as trump world has turned into a bucket of clist lawyers and a handful of coconspirators. The only celebrity who wants to be seen with him are the ones who said there are good things about hitler. Even as embarrassing maga cronies in congress, Marjorie Greene and lauren boebert, privately, most of them probably cant stand him either. Even as his election interference Case Highlights how dangerous this man is for democracy, it also highlights his weakness, including the fact he cant even get people to show up for him anymore. Despite calling for Civil Disobedience on his rather sad social platform, at all three of his arraignments, there were some maga faithful showing their support, but even more protesting against him. Nothing like the big crowds he was once able to summon to his rallies and insurrections. Probably because so many of them are in jail. So much for a revolution. These days, trump is almost completely isolated. Joining me now is tom nichols, staff writer at the atlantic, and barbara res, former Vice President at the trump organization. Barbara, i want to start with you because you were there during the period when trump was like famous, famous, right . When he had celebrities around him and the clintons were at his wedding. How do you think hes reacting to the fact that now the only people who love and adore him are voters he probably wouldnt want near him at maralago, and the sycophants at fox and in congress. Well, theres still people i think that he can do something for them. Why does anyone have anything to do with him . But hes very rich and he makes promises and he delivers sometimes. And as far as the republicans, disgusting people, mcconnell who condemned him after january 6th and now hes kissing his back side as well. Theres other reasons. All these people are liars. You cannot possibly respect this man. You cannot possibly. No one can. His followers, yeah, because they he taught them it was okay to be racist, sexist, xenophobic, so they love him. And he let them change the laws and blah blah blah. Are you surprised that melania didnt show up for any of the three hearings or that, you know, ivanka trump, i mean, he gave her and jared so much power during his administration, none of the three of them have been there for him at his arraignments. Does it surprise you . No, no. I think that melania was never part of the presidency, and everyone knows that she kept her child away from d. C. Until they renegotiated their agreement. But at this point in time, after what went on, why should she . Theres absolutely no reason for her to want anything to do with him or to support him unless shes forced to. He cheated on her and all that other stuff. Ivanka, she wants to get the hell away from him. Shes in this herself pretty deep. Distancing herself is probably the best thing she could do. Tom, let me bring you in here. You have written a great piece, i highly recommend people reading for the atlantic, and you talk about the fact, let me read a little bit of you to you. You saw this is a case, jack smith has sounded the call, but its voters who must answer if they wish to preserve american democracy. Barbara made the case pretty soundly thats never going to happen because donald trump has given so many permissions to people who kind of revel in the bad behavior, that they feel like i guess he as their proxy lets them indulge in. It doesnt seem likely to me that anyone who likes him will like him less because he is facing 78 counts of criminal indictment. They like him more. They think that that is somehow the establishment indicting him for crimes that amount to over 600 years in jail is proof that hes doing everything they wanted him to do, by, you know, hating the same people they hate. The only hope, i think, is that i have often wondered if theres going to be some kind of Hive Collapse or something where theres this kind of spreading disillusionment with him, because the one thing that becomes clear over and over again is that hes not fighting for them. That he doesnt care about any of these people. Hes in it for himself. You know, we have all tried to say this to friends and relatives and neighbors and coworkers, and they just dont believe it. But you know, maybe if they see a trial, which i think ought to be televised, they might finally see it. But no, there are going to be millions of people who are going to vote for donald trump, no matter what he does. And the rest of us, i think, have to take that very seriously, because theres a fundamental unseriousness with the people who just think its all, you know, a hoot that hes so offensive and vulgar and that he tried to overthrow the government. But the rest of us really have to put aside our differences and say, the one thing we have to do is get through 2024 without donald trump getting anywhere near power again. To stay with you for a moment. I know you have expertise in this area. You know, robert, one of our senior producers. Made a point earlier today and i think its true, when republicans try to make donald trump sound like hes being persecuted politically, you know, one thinks of alexei navalny, who is literally being persecuted politically in russia, and who is facing another 19 years in prison and in apparently one of the wus gulags in russia. Literally for opposing the Autocrat Leader of russia. That is actual political persecution. I think of the people who went up in the congo, thats political persecution. You talk about unseriousness. I cant think of anything more unserious than comparing donald trump to someone like that. Yeah, donald trump, you know, gets arraigned and hes treated politely and gently and he gets back on his jet with his big name on the side, and he goes and gives a Press Conference and talks about how miserable all of this is. Where navalny, you know, is basically surviving multiple attempts to kill him. The russians, by the way, the russian regime is having a big laugh out of this because theyre talking about trump as if, you know, the russians are lamenting how much donald trump has been persecuted by the american government. Because theyre expert trolls at this stuff. Theyre putting navalny in prison, trying to put him in prison for the rest of his life or kill him, one of the two, and instead, theyre kind of winking at the camera and saying, but isnt it terrible whats happening to donald trump . Its really a horrifying thing. I think more americans ought to appreciate that. And barbara, what do you make of the irony here . Donald trump literally ran in 2016 on the theme of lock her up. On the theme that he would like to become president and lock up Hillary Clinton. And even said to her face, ill put you in prison. And now his new theme is he would like to lock up joe biden and his son. And yet, you have republicans, including some folks at the other network, saying how dare, you know, the Justice Department pursue this man for crimes . Well, i think its sort of going back to what i said. Hes a projector. You know, he does. I saw him do that 30 years ago, accusing people of doing things he does, which they did not do. So its, you know, hes being persecuted now. Meanwhile, hes not being persecuted at all. Hes not innocent at all in that he convinces people, im so innocent, because they want to hear it. I think they really want to believe in this guy because he lets them do all these terrible things. And anyone who has lived in this country from 2016 must have noticed that in the early months and continuing after trumps presidency, lawlessness grew. Racism grew. Sexism grew. Because trump gave permission. Real quick, before i go back to tom, to stay with you for a moment, barbara. Donald trump is now facing judges who are brown and black folks in a city, washington, d. C. , where the jury pool is going to look, you know, a lot more diverse than what he would like. Theyre demanding to move the trial to West Virginia because hes like i cant get a free trial unless its all maga. What do you make of the irony that he now faces the people he literally hates and they have some jurisdiction over them . It is ironic. I hope that they remain true to their values because so many people have known how bad he is and just said what the hell. For instance, antisemitism, which i saw right out in the open. There are many, many, many jewish people who will support him. Go ahead. Even black people, like the guy, the football player. Has he no selfpride . Hes taking the endorsement of a racist, a really, really racist guy. People are strange. Yeah, irony is has died. Tom, i do want to ask you, donald trump was admonished by the judge in this case, do not try to intimidate witnesses or jurors. Within 24 hours, hes already up on his truth social saying the following, if you go after me, im coming after you. He could mean that about anyone. We dont know who hes talking about, but it sure does sound to me like hes not listening to the judge. Yeah, i mean, imagine if john gotti had said it. You know, how prosecutors probably would have related to that. This is part of the way trump, you know, edges around or trampled on the norms. You know, when a judge says dont do this, hes like a little boy who says, well, what if i do it this way . Is it still the wrong way . And thats been part of the whole right wing defense of donald trump. Going back to something you brought up a moment ago, where people say, how dare you talk about jailing, you know, a former president. These were the same people that didnt flinch during the lock them up days and what theyre counting on, and i hope people are not intimidated by it, theyre counting on everyone elses sense of propriety and civility. Your first instinct, gosh, i didnt mean to be insulting. No, this man is accused of multiple crimes. He whether he is criminally guilty, he did the things hes accused of. Which makes him unfit to be president , and it makes supporting him, you know, a failure of civic character. We shouldnt hesitate to say it, no matter how many times people clutch their pearls and say how dare you. Thats their strategy and we shouldnt fall for it. I cannot disagree with a word you have said. Tom and barbara, thank you. Up next on the reidout, it sure sounds like trumps attorneys are still trying to figure out a defense strategy. So far the best they can come up with is, at least he didnt send tanks into the streets. All right, well, thank you. The reidout continues after this. The chase ink business premier card is made for sam who makes, everyday products, designed smarter. Genius like 2. 5 cash back on purchases of 5,000 or more, so sam can make smart ideas, a brilliant reality chase for business. Make more of whats yours. Let Innovation Refunds help with your erc tax refund so you can improve your business however you see fit. Rosie used part of her refund to build an outdoor patio. Clink dr. Marshall used part of his refund to give his practice a facelift. 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Get started for just 49. 99 a month. Plus, ask how to get one free line of unlimited mobile. Comcast business, powering possibilities. So admittedly, im not a lawyer, but something tells me this is not what a defendant wants his lawyer to be saying on the tv. President trump wanted to get to the truth. He desperately wanted to get to what happened during the 2020 cycle. He did it in the courtroom. He did it in lobbying legislatures. Thats all First Amendment. And then at the end, he asked mr. Pence to pause the voting for ten days, allow the State Legislatures to weigh in. And then they could make a determination to audit or re audit or recertify. What he didnt do is send in the tanks, tell mr. Pence dont go to capitol hill or do anything that would obstruct the due process of government. So what youre saying is basically he did it . Correct me if im wrong, but isnt the intense pressure he was putting on his environment to break the law literally part of one of the charges in his latest indictment, conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding . Apparently its all good because at least he didnt send in the tanks. Except that is precisely what coconspirator number four was ready to do. There had not been outcome determinative fraud in the election and if the defendant remained in office nonetheless, there would be riots in every major city in the United States. Conspirator number four, jeffrey clark, the man trump wanted to name as the new attorney general, responded, quote, well, Deputy White House counsel, thats why theres an insurrection act. Joining me now is maya wiley, president of the Leadership Conference on civil and human rights, and sunia dianando. Thank you both for being here. Welcome to the show, you are at a disadvantage, youre not here at the table. So im going to let you go first here. Is that a good defense . Saying he did it, but at least he didnt send in tanks to shoot people . Joy, thanks for having me. The first thing i thought