Months, the former president of the United States has been indicted, arrested, and a range. And lets face it, weve become oddly familiar with how this all goes. Theres the release of the indictment itself, helicopters following black suvs, and of course, the court sketches, all followed by a barrage of deranged posts on truth social. Theres a bit of a rinse and repeat feeling that starting to set in. But this one did feel different, because it is different. It felt bigger, because it is bigger. The indictment filed by Special Counsel jack smith this week detailed the ways in which an american president engaged in a criminal conspiracy from the oval office to subvert the will of the people. Of course, like any criminal defendant, trump is innocent until proven guilty. There will be a trial, and his legal team will mount a defense. But no matter how it ends, this is the one that historians will be talking about 100 years from now. Trump is now facing four criminal counts in this case, including Conspiracy To Defraud the United States, obstruction of an official proceeding, and conspiracy against the right of americans to vote and have their vote counted. Now, there will be a lot of political analysis and speculation about what this all means, and the impact it could have on the race in 2024. Im here to tell you that most of those predictions are a little more than wild guesses at this point. And they may bear no resemblance to what were actually seeing in 15 months, when the election rolls around. This is ultimately not about politics, and it should not be talked about only through the political prism. Because it is not about joe biden. It is not about the republican or the democratic party, it is about a coordinated attempt to upend democracy itself by a sitting president. A quote from the indictment, its about a concerted effort to quote, create Intense National atmospheres of mistrust and anger, and erode public faith in the administration of the election. Heres the thing, donald trump hasnt learned a single lesson. It doesnt seem that way it seems. He hasnt changed his behavior at all, and thats probably why the judge is at his arraignment explicitly warned him to his face that it is a crime to influence jurors or thoughts and anyone with information about his case. But just 24 hours after trump was released on bond, he issued this message in all caps on truth social, saying quote, if you go after me, im coming after you. It did not go unnoticed. Just a few hours later, Special Counsel jack smith cited that threatening post in up request for a protective order. Raising concerns that trump is going to publicly share the evidence that they give to his lawyers and use his platforms, his social media platforms, to intimidate witnesses. And that seems like a reasonable concern, unfortunately, especially since trump posted another threatening message late yesterday, attacking former Vice President mike pence. Hes a witness in the case against him. Of course, this is exactly what weve come to expect from trump, who will do everything in his power to make this about politics and cast himself as a martyr. As the victim. He wants a public debate about who was for him and who is against him, and he wants us to talk about his poll numbers and whether this indictment will strengthen or weaken his campaign. What he does not want is a discussion of the facts. The truth is, what trump fears most say is the facts, the facts will prove more stubborn than he is. That he wont be able to spin, control, threaten, or lie his way out of this. That he will lose control. He does not want us to remind you that the people that made this indictment are not joe biden or even merrick garden, maga republicans, quoted throughout the indictment. And he does not want to talk about the trove of Additional Details that jack smith may have. So, thats exactly what were going to do over the course of the next hour. Joining me now is ron klain, President Bidens former Chief Of Staff and my former boss. Its great to see you. Great to be back, thanks. You have more experience in washington and every job there is than almost anyone, and i think part of what we need to address here is whats normal and whats not. And i want to start first with this post, because trump posted, if you go after me, im going to go after you. You are familiar with worrying about security threats, how concerned should we be about those type of posts . Well, i think, as you discussed, this is an effort by the former president to try to intimidate witnesses that might testify. And as you noted, the witnesses in this case or not democrats, they arent trump haters, they are people who are some of his closest advisers. His loyal Vice President , mike pence, who is likely going to be a witness in this case. So hes trying to intimidate people who know the truth, he doesnt want them to tell the truth, is that normal . No, its not normal. Its possibly also criminal. When you are reading this, because i havent had a chance to ask you or talk to you about this, youre the incoming Chief Of Staff when this all happened. You were preparing to lead during covid, during a really hard time in our country. What did you think when you read this . I thought, how close it came to succeeding. The indictment is a damning indictment of what donald trump tried to do to keep the American People from having that will in the election. Trying to overturn the results, trying to interfere, obstruct with the lawful process in the transfer of power. I think its hard to read it and not think how close it came to all working. And that, i think, is the scariest thing of all of this. The other question ive never asked you about is during the transition, i was a spokesperson on the transition, you with the incoming Chief Of Staff. I remember being worried the night before january 6th that that will delay tactics being used on the floor. But not about the level of violence or the level of security threats. And what were you worried about at the time . Same thing i was worried about, efforts to just lay and postpone. The Vice President pence wasnt going to show up, i wonder what that element, was that going to be turned out to be true . And i will say there were Times On January 6th where i was fearful that donald trump would not leave the office, and joe biden would never be sworn in as president , because they would not be able to resume the electoral votes. Trumps former Chief Of Staff, mark meadows, is not mentioned in the indictment. Theres speculation hes cooperating. You, of course, dont have any information on that. But you did hold the same job, and what struck me is just the Chief Of Staff has so much access to the president , so much information. What kind of information or accessed you have as Chief Of Staff to the president . People that are trying to understand this. We have a lot of access to a lot of information, and were supposed to use it for lawful purposes. And the question here is, there was a conspiracy that developed in the white house, a conspiracy to not let the world of voters be the outcome of the election. A conspiracy to stop the lawful process, the transition of power. And the question is, who was involved in that conspiracy . As a Chief Of Staff, your job is to find conspiracies going on and stop it, and keep it away from the president. And instead it appears that the president himself propagated this conspiracy. As i said, nearly succeeded in it. One of the things that was also striking, but even more so, is trump basically went around the typical legal advisers. The acting Attorney General, the white House Counsel, mike pence described the team of lawyers he went to as a crock pot lawyer, to quote mike pence. How abnormal is that for a president to go outside of the Attorney General, the white House Counsel, and others . I think it gives crack pots a bad name. What happened here was ridiculous, and an effort to break the law. Bill barr was Donald Trumps handpicked Attorney General, he put him as his Attorney General when he forced out Attorney General sessions, and then bill barr was the Attorney General, bill barr told him there is no basis for this. Barr resigned, and then he put in acting Attorney General, that person told him that the Justice Department has no role here. You have to have a legal challenge to it, the legal challenge failed because there was no basis for it, and then trump just ignored the legal advice he was getting from his normal legal advisers. The white House Counsel, the councils were excluded from meetings. They brought in these people that were part of his conspiracy to try to overturn the results of the election. And thats what went on the white house. Theres nothing like this that had been seen before. The other thing that struck me, and what we certainly dont know, we werent in there, although we were on the transition. But president pence claimed he didnt know about the electors plot. He was the Chief Of Staff to Vice President and president , i dont buy that. But im interested in what your gut instinct was that. Its hard to know what they did or didnt tell mike prints. Theyre clearly trying to pressure him to do something that he had no Legal Authority do, which was to stop the Electoral College and to overturn the fake electoral votes. Thats something that no Vice President has ever done before because theres no legal basis to do it. And others also rejected this possibility, al gore in 2000 had to preside over the Electoral College tabulation that resulted in him not being elected president. So the Vice President is common, they were pressuring pence not to do his legal duty but they didnt tell him, we dont know. One of the big debates of their is whether they should be cameras in the courtroom. There is an argument for that for transparency purposes, youre also when the president was coming and was trying to settle the country. What do you think about the idea of cameras in the courtroom . Are you for it . I would be fort in this case. First of all, i generally favor cameras in the courtroom but i do think the judicial process should be more transparent. And so i think we have cameras obviously in the congress proceedings, and we should have cameras in the courtroom general. Specifically here, given the crimes that are alleged, which is an effort to essentially overturn the government, the public has the right to see this trial and the public conference in the outcome of the trial is going to be critical. Im gonna ask you to put your chairman hat on for a second, because i understand that chief Justice Roberts would have to decide that cameras could be in the courtroom. Is there anything that the senate can do or the Judiciary Committee can do to compel that to be the case . I suppose that congress could pass a law requiring amaras, requiring that all proceedings should be televised. I dont think thats going to happen. The chief justice, i understand that competing considerations here. I think this is a special case and i think there should be televised access to the case. Youve known the president for so long, and he came in at such a difficult moment in history. Part of the impact of trump questioning the outcome is that an overwhelming majority of Republican Voters still to this day it dont believe that President Biden was legitimately elected. Despite court cases and everything. How do you think do you think he bears the scars of that . I dont think he bears the scars of that. Look, the job of the President Biden has done in these two years, hes worked with republicans, hes working with Mitch Mcconnell to get things done. Hes worked with Kevin Mccarthy to get the Debt Limit Situation navigated this year. Hes passed Bipartisan Legislation, bipartisan infrastructure bills, Bipartisan Legislation to help our veterans, control legislation, so hes been or as much as theyve been willing to work with him, hes gone the extra mile. And so i think hes done everything he can to be a president for all americans. I have one more thing. Look at these bills he passed, these Major Investments in clean energy and infrastructure. All of our studies show that most of the money those republican states and massive job creation. Someone is taking credit for it. Someone is taking credit for it and voted against it. But hes the president for all americans, trying to make this country better in every one of the 50 states. And i think thats what joe biden is. What he was elected to do, its what he has been doing as president. I think people can now see why i could just go talk to you for ten minutes before a briefing and know all the things i needed to know. Thank you so much for joining me this afternoon. Thanks for having me. Coming up, you do not have to be a lawyer, and im not, to understand how it ridiculous some of the legal defenses in this case really are. Were going to go through some of their favorite arguments one by one. Plus, did the trump allies who are calling this whole thing a political witch hunt know how much of the evidence of that and later, a look back at the work of the january Six Committee and a look ahead to this trial with congressman were just Getting Started today, well be right back. Ell be right back your Car Insurance. So you only pay for what you need. Thats my boy. Stay off the freeways only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Choosing a treatment for your chronic migraine only pay for what you need. 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting 4 hours or more can be overwhelming. So, ask your doctor about botox®. Botox® prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine before they even start. Its the 1 prescribed branded chronic migraine treatment. So far, more than 5 million botox® treatments have been given to over Eight Hundred And Fifty Thousand chronic migraine patients. 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