Transcripts For MSNBCW The 20240704 : vimarsana.com

Investigation. He cites Harvard Law Professor Laurence Tribe to support his theory about the fake electors. Lawrence tribe is going to join us tonight this is one of the lucky bookings that preexisting this story. He is going to respond to somebody who is listed now as a coconspirator in the case of the january six who was in his memo apparently trying to lean on professor tribe. We will see if that works, when he joins us. That is what they call in the business a chefs kiss, great book, and cant wait to see it. Can we. Have a good show. The Breaking News this evening is friday at ten pm. That is when the judge in the newest prosecution of donald trump will convene the first hearing in that case yesterday. Judge Tanya Chutkan asked the lawyers and the case to agree on two possible dates and times that they would all be available for hearing this week. Jack smiths team of prosecutors made it very easy on the judge, saying that they would all be available at anytime. Wednesday, thursday, or friday. And then Donald Trumps lawyers replied that they would not be available on thursday because one of them has to appear in the case against donald trump in florida on thursday. The Trump Lawyers then asked the judge to schedule the hearing for Monday Or Tuesday of next week. At 5 24 pm this evening, the judge issued an order saying that the court hereby schedules a hearing on the parties perspective protective Border Proposals on this august 11th, which is friday, at 10 am. The primary business of that hearing is to consider with donald trump and his lawyers will be allowed to say publicly about the evidence in the case they will be handed over to them by jack smith and his team of prosecutors. Its a standard issue to be dealt with in cases like this that include green jury testimony, which both sides have already agreed cant be made public by donald trump and his lawyers. Donald trump is pretending the jack smith is trying to take away his First Amendment rights. We will be joined tonight by a panel of legal experts, no cattle, keys fleming, and bradley moss, he will consider the Trump Defense arguments. Also joining us tonight, as we said, Laurence Tribe, to respond to some of what Donald Trumps Criminal Defense Lawyer has been saying, and to respond to reporting in the New York Times tonight about that memo. In a moment, we will show you some video of Donald Trumps speaking in New Hampshire today, claiming the jack smiths motion for a Protective Order on the evidence in the case as an attempt to take away Donald Trumps First Amendment rights. Donald trump doesnt tell the crowd it his criminal Defense Attorneys have already agreed to most of the restrictions the jack smiths Protective Order is asking for. That would mean, that according to donald trump, his Criminal Defense Lawyers are also trying to take away his First Amendment rights. These thug prosecutors, these deranged guys, filing a court order, taken away my First Amendment rights, so that i cant speak. Listen to this. In other words, ill be the only politician in American History not allowed to speak. Because of our corrupt system. Leading off our discussion tonight, neil catio, former acting solicitor general, and host of the podcast, courtside with neal katyal. Glenn blabbing, a in cobb county, georgia, and bradley moss, an attorney representing people working in the defense community. Neil katyal, trumps First Amendment rights. Is jack smith trying to take away his First Amendment rights . Trump is right, he is the first politician, or at least the first president to be accused of several serious federal felonies. Theyre two different indictments. The idea that this has to do with his First Amendment rights is bogus through and through. I think the jack smith debunked it in a filing earlier this week before judge chutkan. What he said is, im not trying to undermine your First Amendment rights. Youre like to speak, but theres a difference between speaking and intimidating witnesses. Trump was warned about this, lawrence, at his arraignment. An extraordinary moment last week with the judge. The judge said, look, you cant go and try to influence jurors, things like that. He said he understood. And then within 24 hours, here is threatening basically intimidating witnesses might, pence, saying if you come after me, oh come after you to the whole world and so on. This isnt the way in any other Criminal Trial can operate. If you look this defendant get away with it, then every other defendant can get away with it. There is no First Amendment right here. If trump is right that it is his speech, its his social media post, what he says about pence, it is verbalized throughout speech. It is impermissible every day of every week because intimidation of witnesses often occurs through speech, and yet it is punishable and separately protecting the orders, other things like that. What the government is seeking here with the Special Counsel is absolutely reasonable. I think the trumps arguments are going nowhere. Instead of spending all of this time sending tweets and chatting with the press, i think that his lawyers should spend some time formulating east argument. If donald trump is indicted in georgia, well district to Tony Fani Willis be asking for a similar Protective Order in that case . I think we will have to wait and see what, if anything, the former president says about that particular case. I think that certainly if the pattern that we have come to no rings true, i wouldnt be surprised if she and her team made steps or filed motions to ensure that she was protected, her family, her staff, obviously the witnesses in the case. Bradley moss, as we showed last night, Donald Trumps lawyers, we put it on the screen, there and its on jack smiths Protective Order, Donald Trumps lawyers agree with most of the Protective Order as written by jack smith. Of course donald trump will be able to go to New Hampshire, anywhere else, and say that im not guilty of those charges all day. Hes allowed to talk about the case. The Protective Order simply says that you cannot talk about this evidence that the prosecutor has obtained, that it is handing over to Donald Trumps lawyers. Correct. These materials that hes going to get as part of discovery are supposed to be used as part of the trial. It is supposed to be used in the context of the criminal proceeding, in terms of determining whether or not he is guilty of these offenses. What donald trump wants to do and the doj made a pretty good point of this in their supply brief. They dont want this tried out in the court he wants this tried in the media. He wants this Volunteer Attorneys that can give documents, and they can filter it and wandered through various media outlets. They can sullied the Public Opinion of what is going on with those cherrypicked pieces of evidence. This is supposed to happen like any other trial. Youre supposed to be a normal defendant like any other defendant. Hes not supposed to be any better or worse. That is what the Justice Department is trying to ensure here. We have more news tonight on jack smiths grand jury that indicted donald trump last week in washington d. C. Nbc news is reporting that members of the grand jury were seen at the courthouse today. It was not clear whether they were Hearing Testimony from witnesses. Politico is reporting in a closeddoor interview on monday with Bernard Kerik, investigators asked multiple questions about the save america pacts enormous Fund Raising Haul in the weeks between election day and the January 6th 2021 attack on the capitol according to his lawyer. He was present for the interview and share details with politico. It is a laserfocused from election day to january 6th. He said that the interview as described by politico is the clearest indication of smiths focus after last weeks historic indictment, and arraignment will six alleged coconspirators including Rudolph Giuliani was identified in the indictment. None of them have been charged. The continued presence of the courthouse of the grand jury overseeing the matter suggests that additional charges might still be forthcoming. Well catch all, what does it tell you about jack smiths investigation but theyre questioning Rudolph Giulianis assistant, Bernard Kerik on monday, somebody who of course has already done three years of federal prison time for financial crimes and might be unwilling to do more prison time. Jack smith, lawrence, it has already tiptons hand in telling us that he is ready to bring a new set of charges and new defendants if you find new evidence. That is what has happened in the stolen documents at maralago investigation, what we call a superseding indictment. Similarly here, he is investigating for some time the save america pack, whether that pack and donald trump violated federal laws by raising money off of claims of voter fraud that they knew to be false. And so i do think i suspect thats whats going on today. Obviously we dont know, grand juries operate in secret. We were just reading tea leaves. If i had to bet, i would say that thats whats going on with respect to carrick coming in right now. He was alleged to be involved in that whole scheme. What message does it send to the Trump Defense lawyers that the grand jury might still be Hearing Evidence of the case, fbi, prosecutors are still doing interviews like the one, not only are you not possibly done, your client might get a superseding indictment, but you better be ready for his various coconspirators. All those people listed in that original indictment, they either could get indicted pretty soon, or number two, they are going to start considering flipping. Theyre going to start considering trying to save their own skin and cooperate with jack smith and provide all of that Insider Information that the doj does not yet have. That should concern them. It should particularly concern donald trump. Georgias Fulton County District Attorney fani willis also continues to subpoena witnesses to testify to her criminal grand jury considering possible indictments of donald trump and his associates in an attempt to overturn the president ial election in georgia. The Atlanta Georgia constitution reports governor jeff duncan has received a subpoena to testify as a witness before Fulton County grand jury that could continue indictments against former President Donald Trump and his allies this month. He told the atlantic journalconstitution that he has light yet to receive a date to meet with grand jurors, but added on social media that he would share the facts as i know them, around this investigation, and in hopes of figuring out what really happened. Brett cleans fleming, what does that tell us about fani williss investigation that she is still sending subpoenas for witnesses to testify to the grand jury on dates that have not even been set yet . I think for a host of reasons, most of all safety reasons, hes trying to maintain some level of confidentiality. Both for the witnesses that she is subpoenaing, as well as the grand jurors, the d. A. s office, as well as folks across the courthouse. I think that that is the right thing to do so that she can ensure not only the integrity of the case but obviously the safety of these folks. On meet the press on sunday, Donald Trumps Criminal Defense Lawyer said the Donald Trumps phone call to georgia Secretary Of State brad raffensperger, which is included in jack smiths indictment of donald trump, wasnt threatening, and it did not ask the Secretary Of State to commit a crime. Why did he threaten the Secretary Of State with a criminal charge . That was not a threat at all. What he was asking for is for raffensperger to get to the truth. He believes there were an excess of 10,000 votes that were counted illegally. What he was asking for with as the Secretary Of State to act appropriately, and find these votes that were counted illegally. That was an aspirational ask. He is entitled to position even state government. That does not involve obstruction of federal government. Fleming, how will that defense work if trump is indicted by fani willis in Fulton County, georgia on State Charges . I think its something we have to wait and see. Obviously if we get to the point of having indictments and possibly even a jury being struck, all of that will come into evidence. Lets remember, we have now had several members of the Special Grand Jury here that tape and be able to decipher it or interpret what was said. Theyve also heard from secretary raffensperger himself as he was subpoenaed to testify before the Special Grand Jury. Those issues of credibility are going to be very key when and if we get to the point of having a jury decide how that message should be interpreted. Neil katyal, well have this unusual prospect eventually have to Criminal Trial juries evaluating that very same thing, the phone call to brad raffensperger. It is mentioned in jack smiths indictment in washington, d. C. If there are indictment on State Charges for donald trump in georgia in that trial there, it will obviously be the centerpiece of that trial in georgia. We will eventually have to different Jury Judgments rendered on that phone call. Yes, that is right. I think that some people might be thinking, isnt that some sort of Double Jeopardy to have that happen . The answer did to that is no, because our constitution recognizes that where there are crimes against dual sovereigns, here the state of georgia, as well as the united states, it is absolutely appropriate that there would be to prosecutions. Particularly so here because trump is hoping that he or another republican will win in 2024 and trying to end jack smiths prosecution, or drop the appeals, things like that. And so the Georgia Prosecution has the safeguard, one that the founders understood well against these kinds of self healing wounds. It is unfortunate to me that like my friend jack goldsmith, Harvard Law School, writing in the New York Times this kind of prosecution would be dangerous for the democracy and things like that. He says that trump might actually be acquitted and that would send a bad message. I have to say that im very proud to see jack smith doing what hes doing. I expect fani willis doing the same thing because the cost of not doing something, the cost of not prosecuting, of letting a president , as president used the powers of his office to basically launch a coup and keep himself in power, that is something that every day of every week, our prosecutors have to stand up against. When i was doing the george floyd murder, we certainly had people whispering the same kinds of stuff in our year. You might lose, what will happen . What will the signal be to america if you lose that prosecution of the murder . But i was proud to see our Attorney General in that case do the right thing and indict anyway because it was the right thing to do. Here it is obviously, lawrence, the right thing to do. Bradley moss, George Stephanopoulos had to valiantly Chase John Loyal for several minutes since the Sunday Morning interview on the very simple question of going to the point of donald trump denying that he said to mike pence that you are too honest. That provoked Harvard Law Professor<\/a> Laurence Tribe<\/a> to support his theory about the fake electors. Lawrence tribe is going to join us tonight this is one of the lucky bookings that preexisting this story. He is going to respond to somebody who is listed now as a coconspirator in the case of the january six who was in his memo apparently trying to lean on professor tribe. We will see if that works, when he joins us. That is what they call in the business a chefs kiss, great book, and cant wait to see it. Can we. Have a good show. The Breaking News<\/a> this evening is friday at ten pm. That is when the judge in the newest prosecution of donald trump will convene the first hearing in that case yesterday. Judge Tanya Chutkan<\/a> asked the lawyers and the case to agree on two possible dates and times that they would all be available for hearing this week. Jack smiths team of prosecutors made it very easy on the judge, saying that they would all be available at anytime. Wednesday, thursday, or friday. And then Donald Trumps<\/a> lawyers replied that they would not be available on thursday because one of them has to appear in the case against donald trump in florida on thursday. The Trump Lawyers<\/a> then asked the judge to schedule the hearing for Monday Or Tuesday<\/a> of next week. At 5 24 pm this evening, the judge issued an order saying that the court hereby schedules a hearing on the parties perspective protective Border Proposals<\/a> on this august 11th, which is friday, at 10 am. The primary business of that hearing is to consider with donald trump and his lawyers will be allowed to say publicly about the evidence in the case they will be handed over to them by jack smith and his team of prosecutors. Its a standard issue to be dealt with in cases like this that include green jury testimony, which both sides have already agreed cant be made public by donald trump and his lawyers. Donald trump is pretending the jack smith is trying to take away his First Amendment<\/a> rights. We will be joined tonight by a panel of legal experts, no cattle, keys fleming, and bradley moss, he will consider the Trump Defense<\/a> arguments. Also joining us tonight, as we said, Laurence Tribe<\/a>, to respond to some of what Donald Trumps<\/a> Criminal Defense Lawyer<\/a> has been saying, and to respond to reporting in the New York Times<\/a> tonight about that memo. In a moment, we will show you some video of Donald Trumps<\/a> speaking in New Hampshire<\/a> today, claiming the jack smiths motion for a Protective Order<\/a> on the evidence in the case as an attempt to take away Donald Trumps<\/a> First Amendment<\/a> rights. Donald trump doesnt tell the crowd it his criminal Defense Attorneys<\/a> have already agreed to most of the restrictions the jack smiths Protective Order<\/a> is asking for. That would mean, that according to donald trump, his Criminal Defense Lawyer<\/a>s are also trying to take away his First Amendment<\/a> rights. These thug prosecutors, these deranged guys, filing a court order, taken away my First Amendment<\/a> rights, so that i cant speak. Listen to this. In other words, ill be the only politician in American History<\/a> not allowed to speak. Because of our corrupt system. Leading off our discussion tonight, neil catio, former acting solicitor general, and host of the podcast, courtside with neal katyal. Glenn blabbing, a in cobb county, georgia, and bradley moss, an attorney representing people working in the defense community. Neil katyal, trumps First Amendment<\/a> rights. Is jack smith trying to take away his First Amendment<\/a> rights . Trump is right, he is the first politician, or at least the first president to be accused of several serious federal felonies. Theyre two different indictments. The idea that this has to do with his First Amendment<\/a> rights is bogus through and through. I think the jack smith debunked it in a filing earlier this week before judge chutkan. What he said is, im not trying to undermine your First Amendment<\/a> rights. Youre like to speak, but theres a difference between speaking and intimidating witnesses. Trump was warned about this, lawrence, at his arraignment. An extraordinary moment last week with the judge. The judge said, look, you cant go and try to influence jurors, things like that. He said he understood. And then within 24 hours, here is threatening basically intimidating witnesses might, pence, saying if you come after me, oh come after you to the whole world and so on. This isnt the way in any other Criminal Trial<\/a> can operate. If you look this defendant get away with it, then every other defendant can get away with it. There is no First Amendment<\/a> right here. If trump is right that it is his speech, its his social media post, what he says about pence, it is verbalized throughout speech. It is impermissible every day of every week because intimidation of witnesses often occurs through speech, and yet it is punishable and separately protecting the orders, other things like that. What the government is seeking here with the Special Counsel<\/a> is absolutely reasonable. I think the trumps arguments are going nowhere. Instead of spending all of this time sending tweets and chatting with the press, i think that his lawyers should spend some time formulating east argument. If donald trump is indicted in georgia, well district to Tony Fani Willis<\/a> be asking for a similar Protective Order<\/a> in that case . I think we will have to wait and see what, if anything, the former president says about that particular case. I think that certainly if the pattern that we have come to no rings true, i wouldnt be surprised if she and her team made steps or filed motions to ensure that she was protected, her family, her staff, obviously the witnesses in the case. Bradley moss, as we showed last night, Donald Trumps<\/a> lawyers, we put it on the screen, there and its on jack smiths Protective Order<\/a>, Donald Trumps<\/a> lawyers agree with most of the Protective Order<\/a> as written by jack smith. Of course donald trump will be able to go to New Hampshire<\/a>, anywhere else, and say that im not guilty of those charges all day. Hes allowed to talk about the case. The Protective Order<\/a> simply says that you cannot talk about this evidence that the prosecutor has obtained, that it is handing over to Donald Trumps<\/a> lawyers. Correct. These materials that hes going to get as part of discovery are supposed to be used as part of the trial. It is supposed to be used in the context of the criminal proceeding, in terms of determining whether or not he is guilty of these offenses. What donald trump wants to do and the doj made a pretty good point of this in their supply brief. They dont want this tried out in the court he wants this tried in the media. He wants this Volunteer Attorneys<\/a> that can give documents, and they can filter it and wandered through various media outlets. They can sullied the Public Opinion<\/a> of what is going on with those cherrypicked pieces of evidence. This is supposed to happen like any other trial. Youre supposed to be a normal defendant like any other defendant. Hes not supposed to be any better or worse. That is what the Justice Department<\/a> is trying to ensure here. We have more news tonight on jack smiths grand jury that indicted donald trump last week in washington d. C. Nbc news is reporting that members of the grand jury were seen at the courthouse today. It was not clear whether they were Hearing Testimony<\/a> from witnesses. Politico is reporting in a closeddoor interview on monday with Bernard Kerik<\/a>, investigators asked multiple questions about the save america pacts enormous Fund Raising Haul<\/a> in the weeks between election day and the January 6th 2021<\/a> attack on the capitol according to his lawyer. He was present for the interview and share details with politico. It is a laserfocused from election day to january 6th. He said that the interview as described by politico is the clearest indication of smiths focus after last weeks historic indictment, and arraignment will six alleged coconspirators including Rudolph Giuliani<\/a> was identified in the indictment. None of them have been charged. The continued presence of the courthouse of the grand jury overseeing the matter suggests that additional charges might still be forthcoming. Well catch all, what does it tell you about jack smiths investigation but theyre questioning Rudolph Giuliani<\/a>s assistant, Bernard Kerik<\/a> on monday, somebody who of course has already done three years of federal prison time for financial crimes and might be unwilling to do more prison time. Jack smith, lawrence, it has already tiptons hand in telling us that he is ready to bring a new set of charges and new defendants if you find new evidence. That is what has happened in the stolen documents at maralago investigation, what we call a superseding indictment. Similarly here, he is investigating for some time the save america pack, whether that pack and donald trump violated federal laws by raising money off of claims of voter fraud that they knew to be false. And so i do think i suspect thats whats going on today. Obviously we dont know, grand juries operate in secret. We were just reading tea leaves. If i had to bet, i would say that thats whats going on with respect to carrick coming in right now. He was alleged to be involved in that whole scheme. What message does it send to the Trump Defense<\/a> lawyers that the grand jury might still be Hearing Evidence<\/a> of the case, fbi, prosecutors are still doing interviews like the one, not only are you not possibly done, your client might get a superseding indictment, but you better be ready for his various coconspirators. All those people listed in that original indictment, they either could get indicted pretty soon, or number two, they are going to start considering flipping. Theyre going to start considering trying to save their own skin and cooperate with jack smith and provide all of that Insider Information<\/a> that the doj does not yet have. That should concern them. It should particularly concern donald trump. Georgias Fulton County<\/a> District Attorney<\/a> fani willis also continues to subpoena witnesses to testify to her criminal grand jury considering possible indictments of donald trump and his associates in an attempt to overturn the president ial election in georgia. The Atlanta Georgia<\/a> constitution reports governor jeff duncan has received a subpoena to testify as a witness before Fulton County<\/a> grand jury that could continue indictments against former President Donald Trump<\/a> and his allies this month. He told the atlantic journalconstitution that he has light yet to receive a date to meet with grand jurors, but added on social media that he would share the facts as i know them, around this investigation, and in hopes of figuring out what really happened. Brett cleans fleming, what does that tell us about fani williss investigation that she is still sending subpoenas for witnesses to testify to the grand jury on dates that have not even been set yet . I think for a host of reasons, most of all safety reasons, hes trying to maintain some level of confidentiality. Both for the witnesses that she is subpoenaing, as well as the grand jurors, the d. A. s office, as well as folks across the courthouse. I think that that is the right thing to do so that she can ensure not only the integrity of the case but obviously the safety of these folks. On meet the press on sunday, Donald Trumps<\/a> Criminal Defense Lawyer<\/a> said the Donald Trumps<\/a> phone call to georgia Secretary Of State<\/a> brad raffensperger, which is included in jack smiths indictment of donald trump, wasnt threatening, and it did not ask the Secretary Of State<\/a> to commit a crime. Why did he threaten the Secretary Of State<\/a> with a criminal charge . That was not a threat at all. What he was asking for is for raffensperger to get to the truth. He believes there were an excess of 10,000 votes that were counted illegally. What he was asking for with as the Secretary Of State<\/a> to act appropriately, and find these votes that were counted illegally. That was an aspirational ask. He is entitled to position even state government. That does not involve obstruction of federal government. Fleming, how will that defense work if trump is indicted by fani willis in Fulton County<\/a>, georgia on State Charges<\/a> . I think its something we have to wait and see. Obviously if we get to the point of having indictments and possibly even a jury being struck, all of that will come into evidence. Lets remember, we have now had several members of the Special Grand Jury<\/a> here that tape and be able to decipher it or interpret what was said. Theyve also heard from secretary raffensperger himself as he was subpoenaed to testify before the Special Grand Jury<\/a>. Those issues of credibility are going to be very key when and if we get to the point of having a jury decide how that message should be interpreted. Neil katyal, well have this unusual prospect eventually have to Criminal Trial<\/a> juries evaluating that very same thing, the phone call to brad raffensperger. It is mentioned in jack smiths indictment in washington, d. C. If there are indictment on State Charges<\/a> for donald trump in georgia in that trial there, it will obviously be the centerpiece of that trial in georgia. We will eventually have to different Jury Judgments<\/a> rendered on that phone call. Yes, that is right. I think that some people might be thinking, isnt that some sort of Double Jeopardy<\/a> to have that happen . The answer did to that is no, because our constitution recognizes that where there are crimes against dual sovereigns, here the state of georgia, as well as the united states, it is absolutely appropriate that there would be to prosecutions. Particularly so here because trump is hoping that he or another republican will win in 2024 and trying to end jack smiths prosecution, or drop the appeals, things like that. And so the Georgia Prosecution<\/a> has the safeguard, one that the founders understood well against these kinds of self healing wounds. It is unfortunate to me that like my friend jack goldsmith, Harvard Law School<\/a>, writing in the New York Times<\/a> this kind of prosecution would be dangerous for the democracy and things like that. He says that trump might actually be acquitted and that would send a bad message. I have to say that im very proud to see jack smith doing what hes doing. I expect fani willis doing the same thing because the cost of not doing something, the cost of not prosecuting, of letting a president , as president used the powers of his office to basically launch a coup and keep himself in power, that is something that every day of every week, our prosecutors have to stand up against. When i was doing the george floyd murder, we certainly had people whispering the same kinds of stuff in our year. You might lose, what will happen . What will the signal be to america if you lose that prosecution of the murder . But i was proud to see our Attorney General<\/a> in that case do the right thing and indict anyway because it was the right thing to do. Here it is obviously, lawrence, the right thing to do. Bradley moss, George Stephanopoulos<\/a> had to valiantly Chase John Loyal<\/a> for several minutes since the Sunday Morning<\/a> interview on the very simple question of going to the point of donald trump denying that he said to mike pence that you are too honest. That provoked George Stephanopoulos<\/a> to ask, is donald trump prepared to testify under oath in court about that . Of course, he refused to answer the question. Never answered the question. He ran away from it with a bunch of words that had nothing to do with the question. It is pretty clear that at this stage, the Credibility Contest<\/a> in that jury in washington, d. C. Between mike pence who has notes of that conversation, and donald trump, that doesnt seem like itll be much of a contest. No, it really wont, not only does mike pence have notes, but he testified under oath. He subjected himself to that. He lost his legal challenge. He complied with the state at that point. He provided the testimony under oath. He hasnt done any of this. Donald trump hasnt done it. Donald trump will never testify at this trial, unless he literally has to throw his lawyers off of his arms as they try to stop him. Theres no way he takes that stand because he knows that his lawyers know that hill up perjuring himself. So this is a political game. Its all political talking points. Hes made some pretty dangerous comments on truth social about mike pence that might get him slapped down by the judge. Credibility wise, pence has in spades. Thank you all very much for starting off our discussion tonight. Have a good night. Thank you for having us. When we come back, Harvard Law Professor<\/a> Laurence Tribe<\/a> will join us with his analysis of the trump First Amendment<\/a> defense and his reaction to reporting in the New York Times<\/a> tonight that one of the memos originally written about the fake electors scheme was using Laurence Tribe<\/a>, quoting him in that memo. That is next. 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Get way more into what your into when you stream on the xfinity 10g network. Breaking news at this hour from the New York Times<\/a> and the Headline Secret Memo<\/a> laid out strategy for trump to overturn bidens win. The New York Times<\/a> has reported on a memo that was cited in jack smiths indictment on donald trump. This is a memo that was never found by the january 6th committee. It is from an attorney named Kenneth Chesebro<\/a>, and it says that the New York Times<\/a> reports a copy maintained by the New York Times<\/a> shows for the first time that the lawyer Kenneth Chesebro<\/a> acknowledged from the start that he was proposing a bold controversial strategy that the Supreme Court<\/a> likely would reject in the end. Even if the plan didnt ultimately pass legal muster at the highest level, mr. Chesebro argue that it would achieve two goals. It would focus the attention on claims of voter fraud, and quote, by the Trump Campaign<\/a> more time to win litigation that would deprive biden of electoral votes, and or add to the trump column. He cited writings by the Harvard Law Professor<\/a> laurence h. Tribe to bolsters argument that the deadlines and procedures in the electoral count act are unconstitutional, and that state electoral votes need not be finalized until congresss certification on january 6th. He had worked as his Research Assistant<\/a> as a law student, and later helped him and his representation of Vice President<\/a> al gore during the 2000 election. Calling his former mentor a key biden supporter and Fervent Trump<\/a> critic. Mr. Chesebro cited what he described as mr. Trumps legal views, along with writing as by several liberals as potential fodder for a messaging strategy. It would be the height of hypocrisy for democrats to resist january 6th as the real deadline or to suggest that trump and pence would be doing anything to he wrote, joining us now is professor Laurence Tribe<\/a>, teaching constitutional at Harvard Law School<\/a> for five decades. Mr. , triborane the middle of tonights Breaking News<\/a> story. I know youve had time to read it. What is your reaction to what you have discovered about yourself in this memo that the times has reported on . I have to say, i did not recognize myself. I havent often been fodder for anything. What Kenneth Chesebro<\/a> did was take stuff that i had said in the year 2000 about florida, and florida law did not set a deadline just before midnight on december 12th. It allowed counting all the way up until january 6th. The date of the joint session, and in fact, maybe even beyond. That was about florida law. Remember, tim russell said that the 2000 election came down to florida, florida, florida. This was in florida, florida, florida, it was wisconsin, georgia, pennsylvania, a number of other states. I never said anything remotely like when mr. Chesebro cut and pasted with my words to make it sound like i had said. I never said or suggested, or would even be caught dead thinking that congress did not have power through the electoral count act to dictate how the process is supposed to be conducted on january 6th. And so he was scouting around my little security, today quoted in the New York Times<\/a>. Its called anatomy of a fraud. It does turn out that the fraud was Kenneth Chesebro<\/a>, he dreamed it up. Hes a lot smarter, unprecedented, it turned out, but a lot smarter than john eastman. I dont think he couldve come up with all of this. Basically he plotted how to take a little snippet here, another snippet there, and three a kind of made up a lot of known law which would not only be rejected by the Supreme Court<\/a> 19 i, think that just did not make any sense at all. And so i guess im flattered to be fodder, i suppose. It just shows how fraudulent it all was. And how no reasonable lawyer could possibly believe in. This isnt like giving legal advice. Lawyers can give advice. When lawyers helped to build the machine, to tear down the republic, and the government, and to prevent the transition of power by making factually false statements, statements in that memo, the newly discovered one, and one that had also featured in the indictment. The memo that the chesbrough wrote On November 16th<\/a> when it had become clear that even the lawyers for trump said that they have lost arizona, and therefore by their own count, they had lost the election. In the November 16th<\/a> memo, he laid out the groundwork for this elaborate plot to use phony electors meeting in places that werent legal to meet, Signing Certificates<\/a> they were fraudulent. The entire thing was factually false and legally infinitive, but completely empty. Thats the house of cards. We almost lost our republic over it. Thank god for people like who persuaded them if he couldnt go along with the plot. Your former student mr. Chesbrough is listed as a coconspirator, not by name, in jack smiths indictment. He says when he is offering this, i dont want to call it a legal opinion, but when hes offering this tactic. He says of course the Supreme Court<\/a> will knock it down. The Supreme Court<\/a> will not uphold it. It will buy us time. That is a political tacticians advice. That is not a lawyers advice. Thats right. He basically said we can buy time. What is it time for . Its time r president to exercise the power that he doesnt have and send things back for a tenday delay on the 6th Of January<\/a> up until four days before the inauguration, sending them back to the State Legislatures<\/a> can exercise some magical power regardless of what Congress Says<\/a> and regardless of the slates that have already been certified by the governor, to name new slates. Thats basically buying time to make the coup work, buying time so that perhaps with the violent pressure we have put on mike pence, with that hang him buying times that we can pressure him to violated the constitution. It is really staggering, and the people like my friend and colleague jack goldsmith, who say that its not a good idea, bringing this indictment, its very difficult. I couldnt agree more with neil katyal it for this indictment to not have been broad would really give up on the democratic experiment for good. If a president can use all of his powers, even when he loses an election, to get some creep like chesbrough to use his law license to help him staged a bloodless coup. If it doesnt work, have blood spilled in the streets, if that is our faith, then were not going to be able to have a self governing life. We will be living under tyranny. I dont want to lend i dont want to live under a tyranny. I dont think any of your viewers do. If, mr. Chesbrough testifies in this case or becomes a criminal defendant at some point in this case, and if jack smith once your testimony, in this, case in relation to that my mother you are cited in, would you testify in this case . Would you comply with that . Of course i would, any subpoena, any request for testimony. The reason that i wrote the piece that i did, i thought that all of us as citizens that had any information relevant to these charges have a duty to come forward and present it. That is exactly what i did. I would be honored to say it under oath. I want to go to one piece, the shortest version of the trump criminal defense. We will listen to it now presented by john lauro. The First Amendment<\/a> purse defense. Lets listen to it. Every single thing that President Trump<\/a> is being prosecuted for involved aspirational asks. Asking State Legislatures<\/a>, asking state governors, asking state electoral officials to do the right thing. In fact, even asking Vice President<\/a> pence was protected by free speech. None of that is illegal. Professor tribe, your reaction to that . It is hard to know where to start. That might work with some of the Base Listening<\/a> because words were used when sir raffensperger was told to just find me 11,780 votes, or maybe you will be prosecuted. That is an ask. Give me your money and you were all shooed, you against that is aspirational. Please give me your money or else do you, i mean, all fraud, all blackmail is committed with words. Conspiracies, they are agreements to undertake a coup, those used words. There is speech involved but its not protected speech. The indictment is extremely carefully written to not even make anything of the president s incitement at at the ellipse. Theres no way i couldve imagined taking the First Amendment<\/a> out of this case more thoroughly than jack smith managed to do by his carefully crafted indictment. Professor tribe, we would like to squeeze in a commercial break if you could stay with us, we want to come right back to this discussion. And when we do come, back we will get professor tribes analysis of the very strange order issued by the only judge presiding over a trump Criminal Case<\/a> who donald trump has not attacked. In fact, donald trump appointed that judge. We will show you why he likes very even more this week than last week. It is next. Im 65. And really smart later im 70ish. Consider an aarp Medicare Supplement<\/a> Insurance Plan<\/a> from unitedhealthcare. With this type of plan, youll know upfront about how much your care costs. Which makes planning your financial future easier. So call unitedhealthcare today to learn more about the only plans of their kind with the aarp name. And set yourself and your future self up with an aarp Medicare Supplement<\/a> plan from unitedhealthcare. Start your day with nature made. 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Now, we just freak, wipe, and were done with mr. Clean clean freak, conquering messes is that easy. Clean freaks mist is three times more powerful, and it works on contact. Clean freak, just freak, wipe, done. Today on, twitter frequent david im david goldberg, a bilingual Elementary School<\/a> teacher and president of the california teachers association. As we start a new school year, theres something new happening in californias public schools. Jessie theyre called Community Schools<\/a>. David where parents and families, students and educators are Making Decisions<\/a> as one. Damien its a real sense of community. Leslie we saw doubledigit gains in math, in english, and reading scores. David its an innovation thats transforming our public schools. Narrator californias Community Schools<\/a> reimagining public education. Guest on this program, wiseman, suggested the possibility that a federal judge appointed by donald trump who was presiding over the federal Criminal Case<\/a> against donald trump in florida, got her latest idea by watching tv. Andrew eisman points out that the day before the judge issued a very strange order in the case, The Fox Propaganda Channel<\/a> had a discussion of how unusual it was for jacks mitt to represent evidence to a grand jury outside of flora judge Aileen Mercedes<\/a> cannon who was appointed by donald trump told jack smiths prosecutors and Donald Trumps<\/a> Defense Attorneys<\/a> to file briefs to, quote, address the legal propriety of using a narrative District A Grand Jury<\/a> proceeding to continue to investigate and or seek post indictment hearings on matters pertinent to the indicted manner in this district. Donald trumps Defense Attorneys<\/a> didnt ask the judge to do that. Nobody did except for possibly people that she might have heard discussing it the day before on a trump supporting television show. Professor Laurence Tribe<\/a> is back with us. Professor, your reaction to that order by judge can . If my reaction is that i could not for the life of me figure and what she was doing its not a thing, theres no rule, no practice, nothing the suggests you cannot use another grand jury where some part of the legality might have occurred in order to generate information for a criminal investigation. It is kind of like what aileen cannon did the first time when she Out Of The Blue<\/a> inserted herself into the process of sorting the documents and overseeing the search. I had no idea where she got the idea, as you point out. It was not ever suggested, even by trumps lawyers, who make the craziest arguments. They never suggested that there should be a new way to address this non issue. Andrew weissmann deserves great congratulations. He had his Sherlock Homes Cap<\/a> on. He was looking around, and they figured out that the only possible play she couldve gotten the idea was on fox news, where an ex lawyer for the ex president came up with this bizarre question that really is not relevant to anything. We she just showed her true colors, she was obviously trying to delay things for trump. In a way, it may have backfired, because as that trial gets postponed, the space has opened for the very important trial, the one that could go forward quite differently with one defendant, the codefendants, including chaz brown, giuliani, there will probably be indicted separately. The one big trial for trying to overthrow the country and overthrow the democracy, it will not go full speed ahead well aileen cannon figures out had a clear the lane thinking that you will do a favor to donald trump trump. She is creating space for the trial that happened fastest under the most competent of judges, 20th can, to go ahead. If its poetic justice. It is an interesting tale of two judges. As we saw tonight, judge chutkan is moving as fast as she possibly can in her courtroom in washington, d. C. Well giving fair time to the defense. She is a former defense lawyer, she is trained in the important values of due process. She is a judge with an impeccable reputation, and unlike aileen cannon, who does not really seem to know what shes doing, this judge knows exactly what shes doing and is terrific at it. But Harvard Law Professor<\/a> Laurence Tribe<\/a> and potential future witness of the prosecution of donald trump in washington, d. C. He doesnt need me, i assure you. He probably wouldnt need you anyway with the memo. We could make it very clear without a witness with the real words of the memo where. Professor tribe, thank you very much for joining us tonight. Thank you, lawrence. Coming up, Breaking News<\/a> from ohio tonight is a very big victory for Abortion Rights<\/a>. That is next. 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Tonight, the associate of press is projecting that voters have rejected a republican backed measure that wouldve made it more difficult to change the states constitution, setting the stage for a major Abortion Ballot<\/a> in the fall. If issue one passed tonight. The proposed November Ballot<\/a> amendment to Enshrinement Portion<\/a> writes in ohios constitution wouldve needed the support of 60 of voters. Since issue one has failed, and been defeated tonight, Future Constitutional Changes<\/a> will continue to only need a simple majority of 50 plus one, just as it has been for more than a century in ohio. President biden issued a statement tonight, saying that today, ohio voters rejected and Special Interest<\/a> to help the states constitutional amendment process. This measure was a blatant attempt to weaken voters voices, and further erode the freedom of women to make their own Health Care Decision<\/a>s. Ohioans spoke loud and clear, and tonight, democracy won. Joining us now, democratic congressman Chantal Brown<\/a> from ohio. She is a member of the House Oversight<\/a> committee. Thank you very much for joining us tonight. Congratulations on this win. A very big majority of ohio voters are saying that they dont want the constitution changed this way. Good evening, thank you for having me, lawrence. I want to thank the volunteers and voters that showed up and just really showed out in this critical election to defeat issue one. This was a Voting Rights<\/a> issue, and should never be a bipartisan issue. I have to, say the Broad Coalition<\/a> of support that came out and rejected overwhelmingly rejected, and rightly ejected this issue from the very beginning. It is super exciting for me. This initiative from the very, start it was sinister, it was shady, shameful, and it was put forth by corrupt Special Interest<\/a>s. They invested millions of dollars to attempt to mislead, misrepresent, and misinform their citizens of ohio. They were paying attention, and im proud to say that we are approaching 2014 midterm numbers. We have nearly 2. 8 million voters, and 2014, the Midterm Election<\/a> had 3. 1 million voters. I think that is a demonstration of the enthusiasm for ohioans to have their voices heard, and to protect the one vote, one person, one vote Majority Rule<\/a> that has been the precedents that has been set for ohio, as you pointed out, for over a century. You had a very large early vote turnout, now tonight we are seeing returns in some republican areas that the republicans are losing in this vote tonight. I will say. This this was, as i pointed out, this shouldnt be a partisan issue. We are seeing support from both sides. Democrats and the republicans. It is a rejection of people being the freedoms being taken away. This is the ability to make their own Health Care Decision<\/a>s. This wasnt simply an Abortion Rights<\/a> proxy, but the ability for the people to make their own Health Care Decision<\/a>s. You are going to see democrats, youre going to see republicans, youre going to see who youre going to see. Thats who were seeing done come together tonight making their voices heard on the ballot box. Im very proud of the ohioans who, again, they showed up and made their voices known. Its a very critical, and history making election, we also wanted to point out that their history has proven ohio and the path to victory, i hope that the maga republicans are taking note, and will make note of this as it relates to the rest of the country. A university poll, showing 58 in ohio, supporting the amendment that will be on the ballot in november to put Abortion Rights<\/a>, Reproductive Rights<\/a> in the state constitution. That is right. Again, when you think about 58 , lawrence, that is going to be the Broad Coalition<\/a> of support. Thats not simply going to be democrats. Its not going to be purely republicans. Its not just women, not just men. That is going to be a Broad Coalition<\/a>, and its going to be what weve seen come out today. A lot of the people on the republican side of the aisle will be prolife and the naturally, some of the people on the democratic side of the aisle will be prochoice what i will say is that 58 58 is a majority. And we won a day with the defeating issue. One it would have raised that threshold to 60 , making it very challenging for the state like Ohio To Enshrine<\/a> the rights to protect the freedoms that we currently have to make our own Health Care Decision<\/a> so we want to make sure that we show up again and prove the naysayers wrong when it comes to this november initiative to protect womens rights to make their own Health Care Decision<\/a>s. Weve seen with the 60 Vote Threshold<\/a> and ohio is lucky ohio congresswoman chantal, thank you very much for joining us tonight. Thank you for having me, lawrence. Well be right back. I brought in ensure max protein with 30 grams of protein. Those who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks uuuhhhh. Here, ill take that woohoo ensure max protein, 30 grams of protein, 1 gram of sugar. Enter the 10,000 powered by protein max challenge. Remember the things you loved. Before asthma got in the way . Fasenra is an addon treatment for asthma driven by eosinophils. Its designed to target and remove them and helps prevent asthma attacks. Fasenra is not for sudden Breathing Problems<\/a> or other eosinophilic conditions. Allergic reactions may occur. Dont stop your Asthma Treatments<\/a> without talking with your doctor. Tell your doctor if your asthma worsens. Headache and sore throat may occur. Tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. Get back to better breathing. Ask your doctor about fasenra. My cpa told me i wouldnt qualify for the erc tax refund, so i called innovation refunds. Their team of independent Tax Attorneys<\/a> will work with your cpa to determine if your company is eligible. [whip sound] take the first step to see if your Small Business<\/a> qualifies. My most important kitchen tool . My brain. So i choose neuriva plus. Unlike some others, neuriva plus is a multitasker supporting 6 key indicators of brain health. To help keep me sharp. Neuriva think bigger. Limu emu doug what do we always say, son . Liberty mutual customizes your car insurance. So you only pay for what you need. Thats my boy. Now you get out there, and you make us proud, huh . Bye, uncle limu. Stay off the freeways only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. [bones cracking] tense music one aleve works all day so i can keep working my magic. Just one aleve. 12 hours of uninterrupted pain relief. Aleve. Who do you take it for . Congresswoman Chantal Brown<\/a> gets tonights last word when a big victory for Reproductive Rights<\/a> in ohio tonight. The 11th hour with stephanie ruhle, starts right now. Tonight, the judge in the 2020 election case, shuts down Donald Trumps<\/a> attempt to delay a crucial hearing, saying i will see you in court. While jack smiths grand jury meets again, signaling the criminal investigation is not over. An ohio voter overwhelmingly rejects republican efforts to make constitutional changes more difficult, and to the potential National Implications<\/a> ahead. Then from the potential tech giant cage match, to the real fears about a. I. We are here to break it all down. The 11th hour gets underway on this tuesday night. It evening once again, i am stephanie ruhle. Live from 30 rock, we begin this evening with the drama in d. C. As Donald Trumps<\/a> legal team starts with the department of justice yet again. The judge overseeing the trump 2020 election case, Tanya Chutkan<\/a>, has rnd","publisher":{"@type":"Organization","name":"archive.org","logo":{"@type":"ImageObject","width":"800","height":"600","url":"\/\/ia802705.us.archive.org\/33\/items\/MSNBCW_20230809_050000_The_Last_Word_With_Lawrence_ODonnell\/MSNBCW_20230809_050000_The_Last_Word_With_Lawrence_ODonnell.thumbs\/MSNBCW_20230809_050000_The_Last_Word_With_Lawrence_ODonnell_000001.jpg"}},"autauthor":{"@type":"Organization"},"author":{"sameAs":"archive.org","name":"archive.org"}}],"coverageEndTime":"20240707T12:35:10+00:00"}