Transcripts For MSNBCW Alex 20240704

Oliveira, do not enter a plea he needs to still lock in some legal representation, with both trump and his valid walt nauta pleaded not guilty to their scheme to delete Security Footage that of maralago. A wall that classified documents case continues to move forward, so too does jack smiths other case, the one in washington d. C. Todays Special Counsel prosecutors revealed when exactly they hope the court will schedule that court. Jack smiths team told the court they want to begin the 2020 election case against trump on january 2nd. Prosecutors argued in the filing that starting the trial on a second day of the new year before any of the nominating contests would vindicate the publics strong interest in a speedy trial. Now we do not know whether the court will agree to that date and trumps legal team will almost certainly push back, but if the government heeds accords governments wishes here then wow, donald trump has a very busy dance card in the month of january. Take a look at this. Potential Criminal Trial on jaunary 6 and then 40 days later, the fourth anniversary of the capital insurrection. January 6th. Nine days after that is the Iowa Caucuses which is the first contest of the 2024 president ial primary, and then sometime around that likely the very next day, trumps legal team is scheduled to be in court for his second Defamation Case against journalist e. Jean carroll. And the less than two weeks later trumps legal team is due in court again for a Class Action Lawsuit brought over his role in a grift involving video phones in the early 2000s. Just so were clear here. In the same fourweek period, donald trump could be facing legal jeopardy for alleged attempts to overthrow democracy and conning people into buying crappy video phones that really looked a lot like portable dvd players. He is truly one in 1 million america. And, whatever the judge decides, the Special Counsels team is wasting no time in preparing for an early trial just minutes after requesting that early january trial date, doj prosecutors issued a separate filing saying that the 2020 election case may include a small amount of classified information. They asked the judge, tanya chutkan, to discuss this matter at a hearing at the end of this month which is interesting information. Keep in mind that all of this is happening the day before a very important hearing in this case against donald trump. Tomorrow judge chutkan is gonna hear arguments from both a defense and the prosecution about whether to grant a protective order here. And that order would prohibit trump from Sharing Evidence in this case with the public. Now, so far there is very good reason to believe that trump would want to do just that. Donald trump spent the last week very publicly attacking the prosecutors in this case and other cases. His comments have not been subtle. Here was last night in an interview with newsmax. Fani willis the prosecutor in georgia. What are your thoughts of this woman . She is not a capable woman. Jack smith, hes like a deranged individual, like a deranged human being. Hes a sick puppy. Those kinds of comments, those kinds of comments are a real challenge for trump. He cannot seem to stop saying them, and his legal team, it is also a challenge for them, because they cannot seem to convince him to stop saying them if he wanted to. But those comments are also a challenge for the judge overseeing this case. A judge who has to balance trumps legitimate First Amendment rights as a president ial candidate with the reality that trump is already very much targeting the judge and the prosecutors in advance of a Criminal Trial. And he appears to have a predetermined strategy here, which is to talk as loudly and as much as possible to shore up his defense. Joining me now is chuck rosenberg, former prosecutor and senior fbi official, also glenn thrush, correspondent for the New York Times who covers the justice department. Thank you so much for being with us tonight. You are an important acid here in msnbc in terms of understanding the nuance of the law. My question is, how difficult a position is judge chutkan in right now, in terms of balancing what seems to be flagrant abuses of the position of a defendant in a criminal case and trumps legitimate right to talk about what may be a very put potent weapon going into a president ial contest . I think you framed it absolutely right alex. Weve never had as a criminal defendant somebody who was also likely to be a Major Party Nominee for president. So judge chutkan has to balance those First Amendment rights. His interest in campaigning, his right to speak about the campaign and the promise for office with the needs of Criminal Trial which include a lot of restrictions on a lot of defendants in a lot of ordinary cases around the country. As you know, there are restrictive rules in this particular Federal Court that limit what a defendant can say, limit what lawyers can say and give a judge the right to oppose strict conditions on them. A whole separate question of course is whether mr. Trump will abide by any of those restrictions. Hes not very good at that, as we know. Glenn, i dont think i am getting ahead of myself. I dont think trump has any inclination stop himself as evidenced by his own lawyers. John lauro, one of his attorneys in this case was a doing the sunday shows doing the things youre not supposed to do, so if your lawyer is doing that, you can imagine youre not getting legal advice to the contrary. Up to this point, trumps general position has been to flout authority, and i have a hard time imagining its gonna be any different in this scenario . This is a morass. There are two reasons why the judge issues a protective order. To keep the jury pool from being tainted so the defendant cant be there talking about information it makes it very hard to joyous a jury pool, and the matter of seeking to intimidate witnesses through his clear public statements, which is also something weve seen in the maralago case. The one thing we know is that jack smith the Special Counsel doesnt want to get caught into this trap, into the trap of being a revisiting of these very lenient bond terms. Trump was virtually no conditions were imposed on his bond, because smith understands the potential problems with this. I think the judge is also in that case. So the question is, is it okay for him outside the courtroom to beat the hell out of the judge, to demean a prosecutor without necessarily violating the protective order . It might very well turn out that as long as he stays within the confines of not discussing the substance of the case or witness intimidation, that saying these seemingly outrageous things about the arbiter in the case and his main opponent legally might be within the lines. But trumps disruptive. The entire january 6th incident and the indictment that was filed against him is one litany of Progressive Disruption and to expect it to and at the Courthouse Door is just not realistic. I completely agree and then the question is what sort of punishment awaits him on the other side . Chuck, short of throwing him in jail which seems an impossibility while he awaits trial, as it finds . Is that the recourse that is on the table here . There are different ways to think about it. I agree with glenn, i dont his bond would be revoked. I think the practical difficulties of putting any former president with secret Service Protection is enormous. But there are remedies. You touched on one, alex. A judge can hold anybody who doesnt obey a lawful court order in civil or criminal contempt. But theres Something Else unethically auto mention it. Look at what happened in the federal case in the Southern District of florida. The government superseded with additional counts including additional counts of obstruction of justice. So if mr. Trump crosses that line, i think the government is just gonna have to just accept the fact that theyre gonna be criticized and denigrated. But mr. Trump crosses the line and starts going after witnesses, intimidating, threatening, or harassing witnesses, thats a separate federal crime. And the government has the authority to go to a grand jury and ask it to indict mr. Trump for those additional crimes. Look, it may be the case that nothing stops him. And maybe the case that nothing slows him down, but there are remedies for the government and for the judge. Yeah, adding more charges to what he already has mounting. That could be an incentive. We may see, we may not see. Glenn, i have to ask you about i will call it in easter egg, i dont if you think about it the same way. This notion to maybe some classified document involved in the discovery. Do you have any sense of where we may be going on that . Not, that was pretty interesting i must say. I dont know quite with that would pertain to. We have enough mystery with the Unindicted Coconspirator number 6, were all puzzling trying to think through that could be. This was actually quite a surprise, the fact that during the smaller of classified documents indicates that its not a big issue. The one area i would say i scanned through the indictment to look for potential areas where that might be the case, there was some discussion about meetings in the white house involving National Security, meeting with milley in one of the infamous oval office encounters with various doj officials. So there was this bleed over between those meetings and some of the doj meetings. The other issue is, in the indictment, smith also refers to the director of National Security and other folks involved in the intelligence community, giving trump counsel that all these various schemes were illegal. So there is some brushing of shoulders with areas that could be potentially classified, but your guess is as good as mine. It would be ironic if it was mark milley who was the Subject Of Administer document waving around that is not worked its way into the maralago case. Chuck, does the entrance of classified material in this case potentially slow things down given the fact that trump S Defense Team is looking for any reason to delay these trials and will presumably make an argument to delay the classified certification, to process, could that slow us down in an unfortunate way here . Theoretically, but really alex it shouldnt. The classification procedures act, the act to use when you have classified documents that the government wants to use at trial can be a little bit cumbersome, but if youre talking about a small number of classified documents, it really shouldnt act as a break in these proceedings. By the way, i think glenn is right. My sense is that when Senior National intelligence officials come to the white house to brief the president , they often bring with them memos or power points, sometimes charts or maps or diagrams. Those are often locked as highly classified, in part because they go before the president , and if those senior officials who were briefing mr. Trump and who were telling him that he had lost the election, there was no interference from venezuela with the voting machines, if they are giving him classified information, some of it may be in writing and subject to the classification procedures act. Fascinating that it may all go back to fraudulent claims about International Interference in the 2020 election. Chuck rosenberg, and glenn thrush, thank you for much your time tonight. We have much more still to come this evening. Brand new propublica reporting on little luxury items lavished on Justice Clarence thomas. Youre not gonna believe the news. Plus republicans plow full steam ahead on the Biden Crime Family boondoggle. There is a why in here somewhere and we are going to get to it with claire mccaskill. Thats coming up. 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Detect this i stay undetectable with fewer medicines. Ask your doctor about switching to dovato. Oh stuffed up again . So congested you need sinex saline from vicks. Just sinex, breathe, ahhhh [sniffs] what is wow baby daddy. Sinex. Breathe. Ahhhhhh i heard you yesterday refer to them as a crime family and that this is organized crime. So make it easy for us, what was the crime . Well the crime is the Trading Policy for money. Which policy . What we are going to get into that. For months, months, House Oversight chair james comer and his republican allies have been suggesting they will finally be able to get into the evidence about the Biden Crime Family. The Biden Crime Family. And now, the House Oversight committee has released a memo showing more than 20 million in payments from entities in russia and ukraine in kazakhstan to the biden family and their business associates. But there are no direct payments to joe biden. Theres no evidence that joe biden was even involved in any of this. In other words, they still havent gotten into that. This is now the third memo the fails to show evidence linking President Biden to his sons private business dealings. But the Oversight Committee says it doesnt have to show payments linked to biden to prove he is corrupt. Joining me now is claire mccaskill, former democratic senator from missouri. Claire, thank you for being here. Im trying to make sense of my position here. Because they havent actually got into the substance of this very incendiary claims that they are making about the biden family and then another part of me thinks, at your own peril ignore the machinations of the rightwing. Where do you stand on this . First of all, what hunter biden did was dumb and had the great appearance of in propriety, may not have been illegal, but joe biden didnt do it. And by the way, we have a long history of Family Members playing of president s to try to make money. Going all the way back to fdr, we had Richard Nixons brother. We frankly had billy carter who was taking money from libya. So what drives me crazy about this is the blinking red light around Jared Kushner. Why does the senate not start a hearing . Lets just briefly walk through what Jared Kushner did. He was put in to run a hodge par folio in a government where he had no experience. Running Foreign Policy in the middle east peace process. He has no experience. What does he do . First he becomes best buddies with the crown prince of saudi arabia. He gets trump to go to saudi arabia for his first trip. He has the crown prince in the white house dining room. He does all that. And what happens the minute Trump Leaves Office . He starts for the first time a private equity fund. He goes over and asks the crown prince for Two Billion Dollars. And you know what the Committee Said that runs the Sovereign Wealth Fund for saudi arabia . They said, this is a really bad idea. They did their Due Diligence and failed miserably in every test of Due Diligence. And Management Fees were excessive. They recommended against making a Two Billion Dollar investment. Of course, the crown prince came along and overruled him, and gave Jared Kushner Two Billion Dollars. Now compare that with mnuchin who was treasury secretary, he was the crown prince to try to trade off his trump connections, and instead even though he had run an investment company, he only gave him one billion and paid him less in Management Fees. This is a huge scandal. I do not understand why the senate is not doing a hearing on all of the trump grift. And im not even talking about the money they made off foreign governments while they were in office. I absolutely hear you. Im sorry, im fired up on this i feel we have to talk about. I think you wonder if the answer to that question is if you are looking at hunter biden, why not look at Jared Kushner is the reason democrats for example not leading the charge on that is because there is a tacit acknowledgment in that what hunter biden was doing was sleazy if not illegal . And that democrats may be in large part in deference to the white house or love to do that. Do you think thats factoring in here in the strategy not touching Jared Kushner . I dont understand that strategy. Thats a good way to make every headline about hunter biden and make everyone forget about what the trump family did. Massive grift while they were in office and even bigger Grift Trading off the influence of the name trump after they got out of office. I really think that what hunter biden did, i disagree with what he did, i dont know if his father disagreed what he did. I know that he was tormented by the death of his other son and the addiction of hunter, but i do know this. I know that the more we give them an open Playing Field to try to pretend like joe biden did something wrong, because of what hunter did, the bigger mistake we make. We need to explain to the American People first to joe biden did nothing wrong. They have no evidence he did anything wrong and secondly, dont look over here, look at the real sleaziness that occupy the white house the last time republicans were in charge. And claire, i absolutely hear the urgency nor voicing the need to explain, because i think many people like democrats have ptsd from swift vote veterans, or donald trump trotting uphill climb to bill clintons moral infidelities, literally the women who were involved in all of that and debates to scare hillary clinton. Those tactics seem absurd. They were patently false in some respects, and yet they were resident. And yet i kind of wonder if the hunter biden as pamela ridiculous that it is trying to tie to joe biden, Republican Voters seem convinced about it. Theyre using it to defend the actions of trump visavis his criminal indictments, and i think if you wonder for might be some problem with independents . I worry about it. I think all those other times it relatives tried to make money of the presidency, it didnt really hurt the president s. Bill clinton had a problem with hillarys brothers. Billy carter was a problem. Richard nixon, he had a different problem, the same kind of problem that trump did, he did illegal stuff. I dont think its really going to hurt joe biden but i dont think we should allow them to get away with this. I just dont think we should allow them to get away with it. It is wrong what the kushners did, what ivanka and jared did, is wrong with all of them did, and we need to talk about it more. Claire mccaskill, i am glad we had this conversation. I needed to get your perspective here. Thank you as always for your time this evening. My pleasure. Still more to come tonight. The drip, drip, drip of revelations about luxury gifts that Justice Clarence thomass receivers billionaire friends. That drip, drip, drip is turning into a flood. Thats coming up next. tense music one aleve works all day so i can keep working my magic. Just one aleve. 12 hours of uninterrupted pain relief. Aleve. Who do you take it for . Inspiring music start your day with nature made. The 1 pharmacist recommended vitamin and supplement brand. Looking for a smarter way to mop . Introducing the new swiffer powermop. An allinone Cleaning Tool that gives you a mop and bucket clean in half the time. Our new cleaning pad has hundreds of Scrubbing Strips that absorb and lock dirt away, and it has a 360degree swivel head that goes places a regular mop just cant. So, you can clean your home faster than ever. Dont mop harder, mop smarter, with the new swiffer powermop. Rsv is in for a surprise. Meet arexvy. the first fdaapproved rsv vaccine. 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If you have hepatitis b do not stop taking biktarvy without talking to your Healthcare Provider. Common side effects were diarrhea, nausea, and headache. No matter where life takes you, biktarvy can go with you. Talk to your Healthcare Provider today. The Football Team at the University Of Nebraska is so popular that it has sold out every seat in its more than 85,000 seat stadium at every home game since 1962. And that is what makes this so significant. This is a photo of Supreme Court Justice Clarence thomas and his wife ginni in the end zone at a game in 2019. At that game the thomass got to meet the team and they got to walk out of the playerstunnel before kickoff which is pretty awesome. They then watched the game from a luxury sky box access to which normally cost 40,000 a year. The thomases had all access passes but they did not have to pay a thing for them. Everything was paid for by businessman david sokol. And so people didnt just get the thomasin the game in the Players Tunnel, in the sky boxed, he also flew them there in a private jet, and then after the game he flew them out to his private ranch in wyoming. Thats a picture of it for an all expenses fishing trip. Nothing better, all of it must be really nice but Justice Thomas disclosed none of this. Not the private jet or the Players Tunnel or the swanky ranch. None of it. And it does not end there. Propublica has identified at least 38 Destination Vacations, 26 private jet flights, eight Helicopter Flights and a dozen vip passes to Sporting Events that Justice Thomas and his wife received from wealthy friends who happened to have similar ideological perspectives as the justice. And this new story is deeply reported. The sourcing includes flight data and tax court filings, and interviews with more than 100 eyewitnesses. What on an earth here is a lifestyle that is very hard to fathom, especially for a Supreme Court justice. Crew members of this 126foot luxury yacht told propublica that they recall having Justice Thomas on board multiple times in recent years. A chauffeur in the bahamas recalled that his company once picked up Justice Thomas from a private jet and then drove him to the marina where this yacht docks. The and the private jet by the way are both owned by a Billionaire Oil baron called paul novelly, and because mr. Novelly sometimes rented this luxury of, we know that the marketplace for a week and this thing is 60,000. Justice thomas and his wife also had the honor of flung this custom 747 jumbo jet that has been retrofitted with Recliner Sets in Mahogany Dining Tables and also the Miami Dolphins logo. Got that privilege thanks to their friend Wayne Huizenga, another billionaire who used to own both the Miami Dolphins and the Florida Panthers and apparently is the jet to shuttle the thomas is tuned from gains because it was a really nice guy, especially if you work Supreme Court justice. But maybe the most exclusive thing Justice Thomas appears to have been comped for was a Standing Invitation to this place. The members only golf club, the floridian. It also used to be long to billionaire Wayne Huizenga and, he didnt charge admission. All of its 200 plus members were just invited by huizenga to eat and play and relax for free. The club has since been sold and now charges 150,000 just as the initiation fee. Justice thomas has been spotted there multiple times. Now, the Supreme Court effectively polices itself on disclosure for stuff like this and propublicas up front that not all of the hospitality they report on here may have required disclosure. All the wealthy benefactors involved say that this hospitality should not be judged so harshly because they are thomass friends. Propublica has not identified any legal cases these wealthy benefactors had before the court at the time they were winding and dining and flying the justice all over the place. Nbc news reached out to Justice Thomas for comment this morning but weve not yet heard back. In a statement replying to previous reporting, Justice Thomas said that he had been advised this sort of personal hospitality from close personal friends who did not have business before the court was not reportable. But it should say be said that optics matter here, because the publics faith in the court matters, the belief that the justices who sit on that bench are morally upright and are not for example in the pocket of anyone. So regardless of whether all of this had to be disclosed, it is still jawdropping that Justice Thomas chose to disclose none of it. The only reason we know about it is that propublica decided to investigate. One of their Senior Editors who has overseen all the recent Supreme Court coverage joins me next. Im saving with liberty mutual, mom. They customize your Car Insurance so you only pay for what you need. You could save 700 dollars just by switching. 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My jacket or jeans. In between washes. Even shoes. Febreze doesnt cover up odors with scent, but fights them and freshens over one thousand uses. Febreze fabric refresher. In early april, we found out about Supreme Court Justice Clarence thomass relationship with billionaire republican megadonor harlan crow, and all the lavish trips he had taken around the world on mr. Crows super yacht, trips that Justice Thomas failed to include on Financial Disclosure forms. Apparently that was just the beginning. Fifth we learned subsequently that Clarence Thomas failed to disclose that nine years ago le pen mr. Crow bought the home thomass mother lived in and still lives into this day. Then we found out that thomas failed to disclose that mr. Crow paid the boarding School Tuition costs for justice le pen thomass grandnephew, running a tablet may have exceeded 150,000. And today we learned of the dozens of Destination Vacations and private jets and otherwise high roller experiences that Clarence Thomas has received from other billionaires who have kept Clarence Thomas in a state of luxury. Weve learned all this thanks to dogged reporting from le pen that nemours propublica. Joining me is jesse eisinger, Senior Editor of propublica, who has overseen all the Supreme Court coverage. Congratulations on important boarding the must of been time consuming and difficult. Its invaluable. It is a public service. But secondly, i was struck by the scale of this. As a lay person that has not overseen all this coverage, is there any parallel in history to a justice taking this much from a group of wealthy individuals . Yeah, thats a great question, and thanks for having me. Its very flattering. We were flabbergasted by that, as well. Where does the guy find the time . 38 vacations in fewer than 30 years, on the court, that he is, and that is surely an undercount. We have lots of evidence that this is an undercount because we were extremely conservative about the travel, both the Destination Travel and the flights, 26 private jet flights. What we were struck with after the harlan crow stories were that we got tips that indicated that the scale was much greater, that the circle of benefactors was wider, and that there were so many more gifts and undisclosed travel, and that is what we have focused on here today, to emphasize that this is a scale that is unprecedented in modern court history, either from any federal judge or certainly from a Supreme Court justice. There is no precedent for this. What is also interesting is you have as evidence sort of Christmas Cards that ginni thomas sent out featuring some of these lavish trips with their billionaire friends. They werent hiding this. This was cocktail conversation. This was holiday Greeting Card material. And yet none of this finds its way onto the Financial Disclosure forms. Is it safe to say that this is evidence of consciousness of guilt, not in the legal sense but perhaps in the moral or ethical sense . It is evidence that they were brazen or thought that the most generous interpretation is that they thought they werent doing anything wrong or they really didnt care or thought they wouldnt get caught. And it is quite remarkable, and part of our massive trove of evidence from ginni thomass own cards, the pictures saying they were hosted in this multitude of events and theres some delicious details in their, such as, hes got a buddy lawyer whos an attack dog, mark poleta, and poleta and his wife serenaded the thomas is with their own song at one of these festivities. So there are great details, but you are right, it was in the open, it was a kind of, it was there to be seen and hasnt been for decades. This is a kind of remarkable thing in and of itself and a comment on how we have covered and perceived the court up until only very recently. Its so good that you brought up that mark poleta anecdote, his friends literally serenading them. I have, i think they love me, friends, none of them serenade me singing lyrics they have written in advance off of their iphones. That doesnt happen. I think in most circles of friends. We all need better friends. Who will fly me around on the private jets. But you make the point, and i think its important here, that these were people that were not friends with him before he was a Supreme Court justice. This is relevant. The adoration, the fealty, the deference to him, almost as if he is a king in this situation. To me that just strikes me as an unhealthy, unbalanced relationship. And or one that, one wonders what Clarence Thomas is getting out of, it beyond the ego stroking. They dont have business before the court, but it just seems wildly asymmetrical. Did it seem that way to you . Absolutely. Thats an extremely important point that you have just raised. Crow, novelly, huizenga, and sokol are all friends that thomas made after he joined the court, and we have the top ethics official in the Obama Administration that had served another administrations saying that he actually told people, the wealthy friends that you have, the wealthy friends that you had before you join the government, you are not allowed to make new rich friends. That is something that he actually said to people to emphasize their ethical responsibilities. And here thomas is flouting that it is extraordinarily brazen way. There is a question of why. Why are these ultra wealthy conservative donors Enveloping Thomas in this life of luxury than he couldnt afford on a Public Servants salary . And im going to leave it to others to speculate, as you said in your introduction, we havent found cases that these men had before the court directly, but there is a way that thomas has become ensconced in a world, a protective world of adulation, where all of his ideas are echoed back to him. Maybe they are given to him or they are discussed in ways that, and we dont have evidence for this, but it certainly is supposition that this is a chamber of, as you say, adulation and ideological closure that protects him from the outside world and envelops him in luxuries at the same time. Enveloped in luxury like a thick cashmere blanket, which i think has been in the offering along the way. Jesse eisinger, thank you on behalf of people who carry about the integrity of this court. We appreciate all the reporting. Good job. Thank you so much. Still ahead this evening, the Deadly Wildfires in maui right now have been leaving dozens dead and they have been destroying priceless parts of hawaii in history. We are going to talk about what has been lost to those flames. Coming up next. To swiffer wetjet, and its awesome. Its an allinone, that absorbs dirt and grime deep inside. And it helps prevent streaks and haze. Wetjet is so worth it. Love it, or your money back. With amazons Back To School deals, you can save money by spending less of it. Makes sense oh, i see what you did there what . What . I dont get it. Hehe. First, theres an idea and you do something about it for the first time with godaddy. Then before you know it, it is a life changer. you make your first sale. Small business first. Never stopped coming. we did it and you have a partner that always puts you first way. no way start today at godaddy. Com. rsv can be a dangerous virus. [sneeze]. For those 60 and older. Its not just a cold. And if youre 60 or older. 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Today President Biden issued a federal disaster Officials Say at least 53 people have died, making it one of the deadliest u. S. Wildfires in decades. And lahaina, one of the hardest hit towns in maui, historically and culturally significant sites have effectively been reduced to ash and rubble, and that includes the famous 150yearold manion tree planted in 1873 to commemorate the first Protestant Mission to lahaina, 50 years earlier. It is now severely burned, but thankfully it is still standing. The historic baldwin home museum, and 1830s era house once home to a medical missionary who vaccinated the island against smallpox, and is believed to be the oldest home in maui, that is burned down. The walls of wylo it shirt, a Teen Twenties house of worship, where many of the early Kings And Queens of the Kingdom Of Hawaii are buried, that was engulfed in flames, which you can see in that picture right there. And then behind a heritage museum, which sits in a Historic Courthouse and houses ancient hawaiian artifacts, has been destroyed by the wildfires. Joining me now is a professor of anthropology and ethnic studies at the university of hawaii at manoa,. Professor, thank you for being here. I imagine this is a difficult time for hawaiians, as it is for all of us in america, just watching it unfold, and our condolences to you and anyone you know on the island. For us on the mainland here, we talk so little, and honestly, no so little, about hawaiis precolonial history. What does it mean to have these artifacts and the structures destroyed by the wildfire . Thanks, alex, and first id like to lift up all of those who have been impacted by the Fires On Hawaii and maui, and our thoughts and prayers and appreciate all of the goodwill that is going towards the islands. With regards to the past, the Pre Colonial Past Of Hawaii and the significance of the hyena, and those objects there, its central to understand how important lahaina has been in our history. Its the center of both political and religious power of the maui chiefly lines. Precolonial times, our islands were organized into chief terms. The maui lineage is prominently related to the [speaking in a nonenglish language] line, and king [speaking in a nonenglish language] unified the islands and the island of mali in the 16th century. His daughter became a powerful lizard deity cult , who became an important protector of waterways, and her monica, her power, is what was allowed king kamehameha to unify all the islands of hawaii. So the place of lahaina and the power there is really felt across the islands. To lose those representations of those history is really an important moment for all of the people of maui, for hawaii, and the world, to think about what it means to carry on history and what forms. Yeah, and when we talk about how we carry our history forward, i think thats a huge question is it concerns what is actually unfolding in maui today. This is a story in many ways about change. Climate change, about change in terms of agriculture and agricultural practices. I wonder if you think there is enough of a conversation about how indigenous communities recover in the after effects of colonialism, industrial agriculture, and then of course how they are poised, whether the effects of climate change. All of those factors seems to have converged here. What is the discussion on hawaii about how to protect what i think is truly sacred land . Thanks for that. The conversation among the, native hawaiians, in dialogue with Indigenous Peoples across the world has always been that of making sure that our knowledge, our practices, our struggles are seen. Because struggles for our sovereignty, for the continuity of our people on the land is really about our efforts to maintain in our language, our , our responsibilities to steward the land in the right way to make sure it is there for future generations. This is knowledge that we carry on from those times of [speakin g in a nonenglish language] , before [speaking in a nonenglish language] , and trying to bring forward into the present unfortunately, as you noted, those centuries of change have led to a kind of, in some ways, loss, in some ways departure from the practices of good stewardship of land. The knowledge is still there, though, and i think many of the carriers of that, including those iain lahaina, who, despite the fact that they have just lost structures, such as you noted, the museum, is an important Cultural Center in , and spiked back they have lost those physical structures and perhaps the objects there, they are nevertheless still committed to making sure that the world knows the struggle to maintain these histories, the practices on the land, to restore the land in meaningful ways. Fish ponds and the terraces have been prominent in hawaiian efforts to return us to a way of being in proper relationship to the place. It is a beautiful way of being. Its truly a magical place. We wish you and all of hawaii a swift recovery, with all the knowledge and grounding in history that one can have at this critical juncture. Thank you so much for your time, professor. Thank you. That is our show for this evening. Now it is time for the last word with lawrence odonnell. Good evening lawrence. Good evening lawrence. He says they face challenges they never faced before. When the power went out and some of the hydrants lost the electrical powered pumps that would pump from the hydrants. So the hydrants that they would rely on to fight the fire couldnt deliver the water when they needed it. The challenges were stunning and kept surprising peoples this fight went on. Wow. Our thoughts are going out to everybody who was affected by this, and of course the people on the frontlines. Thats an extraordinary story, lawrence. I hope we get to put closure to this chapter relatively soon. Alex, tonights United States senate tonight here at the last word. Sheldon whitehouse is gonna join us, talking about Clarence Thomas, which he has always told us. That story was gonna get worse, and it did. Sherrod brown will be joining us and Senate Hopeful katie porter also. It sounds like a full lineup, lawrence. I will be watching. Thank, you alex. Today, a stark raving lunatic called someone else a stark raving lunatic, which is one of the things you have to expect from a stark raving lunatic