, good evening im mehdi hasan. Donald trump is facing multiple indictments, and another indictment of the former president is expected as early as next week in Fulton County, georgia. Several witnesses including the states former Lieutenant Governor now indicated theyve been called to investigate and a grand jury on tuesday. In washington, d. C. , jack smith, the doj Special Counsel prosecutor, has called for a new case to start on january 2nd loss in five months from now. So what happens if trump is convicted and sentenced to prison especially the side of an election . What will his supporters do . My nbc news colleague asked one of them at a rally in New Hampshire on tuesday. If donald trump were to be found guilty by a jury, where do you see this going . Civil war. Because we cant live together obviously. Now you might just dismiss that as the rantings of occultists trump superfan. This country is nowhere near civil war. Thats hyperbole. Have a listen to florida congressman matt gaetz speaking on trump and self at the Iowa State Fair yesterday. I cannot stand these people are destroying our country. They are opening our borders, they are weaponizing the Law Enforcement against patriotic americans who love their nation as they should. We love standing with you, but we know that only through force do we make any change in a corrupt town like washington, d. C. Only by forest can we make change in d. C. Thats what he said. Still not enough for you . And listen also to what Michigan Republican state representative matt maddox whose wife is a cochair of the Michigan Republican dream one of the 16 Fake Electors who was criminally charged last month. Listen to what he had to say this month at a gop fundraiser for an Audio Recording obtained by the new side messenger. If the government continues to weaponize the departments against conservatives and the citizens that are then the tax neighbors, whats gonna happen in this country. Someones gonna get so passed off to gonna shoot someone. Its whats gonna happen. Or were gonna have a civil war or some sort of revolution. Thats where this is where this is going. After that audio was released, maddock issued this statement to the messenger, saying he was simply exercising his right to free speech in the privacy of his own home. We reached out to Mannequin Selves for comment but have yet to hear back. Now i dont know about you but stuff like that sends a chill down my spine. Elected republicans casually discussing implicitly threatening civil war. Shootings, the use of force. Now you might say again lets just talk, talk is cheap, but its not just talk. Political violence is not just something abstract or something might happen at some point in the future. Its happening right now, it has been happening, and increasing, especially since the violent insurrection at our nations capital. A new study from reuters this week says that there is been 213 cases of Political Violence since january 6th, 2021 in which at least 39 people have been killed. Quote, the biggest and most sustained increase in Political Violence since the 1970s these incidents of Political Violence began rising in 2016 youll be shocked to hear around the time of trumps first bid for the presidency. Its Trump Supporters who are pushing the civil war narrative and its largely Trump Supporters engaging in the Political Violence and domestic terrorism. In fact, we know that three Trump Supporters have been killed in clashes with Law Enforcement on or since 16. Ashley babbitt the man the woman who was killed and shot and killed by capitol Law Enforcement as she tried to force her way through a barricaded door that was protecting members of the house from that mob. Abbott, and air force veteran from california, wasnt ardent trump supporter. Her social media pages were celebrated the then president. He has praised babbitt, calling her an innocent and wonderful woman. Who is ricky schiffer, a man who was killed by police after he failed a nail gun at an fbi building certainly after the bureau executed a Search Warrant at the ex president s maralago residents. He was a prolific poster on social media, truth social in support of the former president. In the days after the fbi search, he posted multiple times about wanting to engage in violence, one post even told people in the arm for. Continent was Craig Robertson, and it was sean killed during an fbi raid earlier this week. On wednesday morning after a pilot pointed a gun at agents. The fbi was trying to Serve Robinson with a search and arrest warrant, threatening to kill fbi biden and manhattan d. A. Alvin bragg. He was a selfdescribed maga trumper, and was wearing a hat emblazoned with the name trump. Now we cant prove that trump inspired these people to commit or threatened to commit acts of violence but what we do know is that these three people echoed trumps reddick and believe they were fighting on his behalf against his enemies, in the legislature, and the judiciary and Law Enforcement. They were radicalized. And they are not alone. One recent study from Professor Robert pape at the University Of Chicago found that april 6th, 2023 to june 26, 2023 americans agreeing that the use of force is justified to Restore Donald Trump to the presidency increased from 4. 5 dissent and percent of the equivalent of an estimated shift from 12 million to 18 million american adults. In a moment, i will speak to professor Barbara F Walter from the University Of California who is an expert on civil conflict. Author of the book how civil war start. She says were closer to civil war than any of us would like to believe. So is it any wonder that during friday during a hearing regarding a protected order in the dojs Election Interference Case against trump, judge Tanya Chutkan issued a stark warning to trump about witness intimidation. Chuck and told the internees the even ambiguous statements could be considered an attempt to intimidate witnesses and would then trigger the court to take action. She is clearly worried and we all should be. I mean, can you imagine if any other president ial candidate and a recent decades, bush, romney, obama had multiple supporters using in getting killed by Law Enforcement committing Violent Crimes . Those candidates campaigns would been over before they began. But with trump, we shrug. We accept it as just the way things are now. We should not. We cannot. We have to call it out. We have to condemn the violence and the incitement of violence. We have to take steps to prevent it from escalating out of all control. The threat of civil war of domestic conflict is no longer hyperbole. And so we just cannot afford to normalize Political Violence, and the threat of Political Violence in this country just because donald trump benefits from it and the Republican Party seems totally fine with it. Here to discuss with me frank pig lucy, former assistant director of Counter Intelligence at the fbi in an Msnbc National Security analyst. Barbara falter, Professor University of california san diego, one of the leading or experts in civil wars and extremism. Shes the author of the book how civil war. Certain katie phang, author and host of the Katie Phang Show right here on msnbc. Thank you for joining. Its barber let me start with you. When most americans hear the word civil war, they have a mental image of a 19th century battlefield, gettysburg. And i think were nowhere near anything like that happening again. But can you explain to those people why as you say the u. S. Is a lot closer to civil war than most would like to believe . Im most civil wars do not look at all like our first civil war. That was very unusual in which you had these two large powerful armies going after each other. In fact the majority of civil wars especially in the 21st century or more of what we call insurgencies. They are unconventional wars fought by multiple different militias. They use terrorism tactics, they dont try to engage the military, instead they take violence off into civilians, opposition leaders, judges who might be sympathetic with the opposition. That is the norm for civil wars and we have been seeing an uptick in this type of violence not for a number of years. So when you hear about mass killings, which are often portrayed in the media as idiosyncratic or isolated or the result of someone who is unhinged or a bit crazy, they are often not isolated. Many of them have ties to militias. Most of them since 2008 have been part of the farright, and they are often times targeting minorities. African americans, latinos and jews. So, frank the man shot and killed by the fbi in utah this week didnt just make threats against President Biden. Robinson friend several top Law Enforcement officials overseeing court apparent cases against donald trump, including manhattan d. A. Alvin bragg. Usag Merrick Garland, and Laetitia James from new york. Its not a coincidence frank that he threatened to go after all of trumps legal and judicial enemies. Says rcr of the pipe bomber who sent pipe bombs to the exact same people trumps demonizing at the time. The postings on social media on truth social and facebook, Craig Robertson clearly showed the linkage, and im sure were gonna be learning more about the linkage between him and trump. Is it selfdescribed maga trump, the trump path, where is the quintessential trump outfit of a blue shirt, red tie, the tie to trump couldnt quite clearer. And lets be clear about something else. Craig robertson was not exercising his Free Speech Rights when he swung a rifle, swung a gun toward fbi agents who are attempting to execute an arrest warrant. After repeated warnings and commands that he failed to comply, with us not free speech. It wasnt free speech that the El Paso Walmart shooter who echoed in his writings the mantra of trump about brand invaders. Wasnt free speech. Wasnt free speech at the Buffalo Supermarket with the young man who adopted the thinking of the white replacement theory. Yeah sure, we have Free Speech Rights, but they are dangerous when they incite violence. You played a clip of matt gaetz, what we are going to see moving forward is what i am going to call proxy, pressure by proxy. Trump knows hes in big trouble of the starts spreading violent rhetoric again. Hes gonna have the people around him do it for him and be ready for more of that. Thats a challenge for Law Enforcement. In the face of the study a just shown from the University Of Chicago, or millions of americans today support the use of violence to get trump back into office. We are heightening entering a very heightened threat environment. Course we got this concept of stochastic terrorism we talked about in the show before, where people go and take matters into their home hands, not directly pushed by terrorists all leader, but hearing things they want to hear, and taking violent action depending on the rhetoric. Katie lets talk about the, radicals weve talked about the rhetoric, generally Donald Trumps rhetoric, in the context of political debate. Now we are in a courtroom and judge chutkan seems to recognize the threat that donald trump could pose as this trial goes onwards with his inflammatory statements, with his threats against witnesses. Trumps lawyers promised that his client would adhere to the judges ruling. Heres what the man had to say in South Yesterday in iowa. Lets have a listen. The whole thing is a fake, put it out because they cant win an election the fairway. Ill have to take a listen at the orders and the man who has no intention of following, hes already been retrue thing if thats when we call it as people posting in his sights attacking the judge. Weve seen the jurors were told by the judge, to stay an ominous forever is what the judge said earlier this year. What do you do when the defendant is a former president s of and is able to incite violence in this . Way if youre someone like someone like judge Tanya Chutkan who made it perfectly an exquisitely clear to Donald Trumps counsel and to donald trump that if he crosses the line, she will hasten the trial. I found that to be exceptionally creative. Why . Because most people would expect a gag order. Most people would expect her to shut him down. The extreme way to look at it is look, and order is something that is issued by a court of law. All must abide by that order. When you violate that order, you can be held in contempt of court. You do it enough and you do it egregiously enough, you can find yourself in a jail cell pending trial. But chucking also did something again and i found to be extremely creative. She said to him, i am putting you on notice that if you violate the terms of this order, if you look like youre intimidating witnesses, and lets be clear, this idea like frank said, this proxy war that is gonna be waived by supporters of donald trump that were seeing already, that can count as well. If she says i can hasten this trial date for fear of you continuing to violate this order, then he is going to be looking at his date of reckoning a lot sooner than he wants. And that is something that she can control. If there is a gag order that is put in place, weve seen it before, weve seen it been effective, but in this instance, theres a fear that your varying towards someones first amendments, rice especially 70s it can Political Campaign candidate right now, she says you know what tiktok tiktok, were Gonna Go To Trial, were Gonna Go To Trial sooner than you want so that you can actually face your day of reckoning. Lets see how trump responds to that. Barbara a moment ago i played that clip of florida congressman Matt Gaetz Standing next to trump, van that only threw for skin you bring change in d. C. How much does rhetoric like that republicans saying the quiet part out loud how much does that worry you, how much does that fit with your thesis . We have a name for people like that. We call them violent entrepreneurs. They trigger normalize violence, they trigger, they convince people that this is legitimate action. And what most people dont know is that they tend to stop in surges in civil, wars is not what most people think, its not people who are oppressed and discriminated against. They dont have the capacity to rebel. If you look at over the hundreds of civil wars and insurgencies that have taken place over the last 100 years most of the ethically placed civil wars are people who who used to be dominant in a country better now in decline. And they are knitted klein demographically. They are the ones who have the most to lose. They are the ones who feel this deep sense of loss of status. They are the ones who feel resentment towards the people who are coming up in their country and they also feel like its their legitimate right to hold on to power and that they are justified to use whatever means possible. And their politicians are telling them its okay. Make America Great again is often code for make America White again. Frank, what can democrats, the doj, the dhs the, government, seems like any actually take, it seems like theyre immediately accused of targeting their political opponents there. Immediately accused of going after all conservatives, all republicans. How do you stop this movement is being incited by Top Republican leaders . Its tough. Its an old but new revamped threat, the threat of domestic terror and it needs to be highly prioritized right now. Because quite frankly its more imminence than the threat of international terrorism. Not saying take your eyes off the ball on international terrorism, but weve got to prioritize domestic terrorism. What is a look . Like against things like this. The department of homeland security, aiding and guiding and training local and state Law Enforcement to identify how this happens, where it is, the development of sources or crimes are being investigated, getting out the difference between someone whos actually aspirational and is ready to execute on the path to violence. That needs to be happening in a hurry to the extent that is not happening enough. The fbi director i know is between a rock and a hard place, but hes got to be more vocal with the public and transparent about the nature of the threat. Weve got to get people ready