This is not someone in a maga hat at cpac last year. It is a random new yorker in the year 1985. 1985 was the year that Rudolph Giuliani made a name for himself. It was the year that giuliani pioneer the same prosecutorial tactics that now very much look like they could be his downfall. But let me back up just a little bit. This is carmine the cigar galante. He was allegedly the boss of one of new yorks most powerful Crime Families. And in the 70s, galante flew a little too close to the sun. He was shot point blank at an Italian Restaurant in brooklyn. Allegedly the motivation of his assassins ways that galante had to decided he should be the head mob boss. But the other mob bosses didnt want to agree. A Guy Named Anthony Indelicate whackwhacks palm print but mr. Indelicato whackwhack was almost definitely not the person who decided the fate of carmine the six car. Whackwhack may have been part of the group that but he would not have mr. Indlicato ways what is referred to in the mafia as a capo a middle Ranking Member of a mafia family. And the young u. S. Attorney in the Southern District of new york, Rudolph Giuliani, did not want to just go after the capos. As he later told time magazine, the old practice of locking up a capo or two just speed sped the succession along. Instead mr. Giuliani wanted to strike all levels of the mob family saying it was not an unrealistic goal to crush them. So giuliani went for the people at the top. The indictment of the National Commission of Organized Crime according to the fbi, this nine Member Ruling Body is cochaired by the men who are the bosses of new yorks five organized Crime Families. The Genovese Family headed by fat tony salerno. The Gambino Family headed by big Paul Castellano the lucchese family, ruled by Tony Ducks Corallo the Columbo Family Run by jerry langella. And a Bonanno Family headed by phil rastelli. The case that made then u. S. Attorney Rudy Giuliani a National Figure was not about any one criminal or any one crime. It was about how all of these crimes drug deals and extortion even murder how all of that was ultimately controlled by the people at the top in the form of a Criminal Enterprise. In this case, a ruling body body with a mob boss from every family, a ruling body called the commission. They are said to run the most powerful Crime Families in new york. In fact, in the nation. And according to the government, they make up the commission. The ruling body of a potent Criminal Enterprise Dealing in drugs and extortion, loan sharking, Labor Racketeering and murder. The Mafia Leaders were rounded up in an overnight sweep. And today u. S. Attorney Rudolph Giuliani announced the indictments. This is a great day for Law Enforcement. But this is a bad day probably the worst for the mafia. The commission has existed in new york for more than 50 years at that point, without anyone being able to touch it. What gave giuliani the ability to go after the commission itself, rather than just the commissions footsoldiers, like whack whack, was giulianis pioneering use of a relatively new law, the racketeer influenced and corrupt Organization Act of 1970. You might know it more as rico. Before 1970, prosecutors were limited to seeking indictments for specific acts, such as the commission of a crime to or to Finding Witnesses who would testify about a criminal conspiracy. Rico changed that. If you could prove that there was an enterprise or an organized group of some kind, conspiring together to commit multiple crimes, then you could charge for that conspiracy. Its back in 1983, i think ron, when ron came to visit me to talk about putting together a rico case. At that point, we all thought that there was a possibility of putting together a case on the commission of the mafia. But it was on the Drawing Board at the time. And there were an awful lot of people, including people within Law Enforcement that thought that that was totally unrealistic, ridiculous, could not be done. Rudy giuliani did it. The top bosses in new yorks most powerful mafias were given 100year prison sentences. And the case may giuliani famous. And he used that fame to ultimately run for mayor of new york and, well, you know the rest of the story. But now a version of the same law georgias rico statute a version of that law could be Rudy Giulianis downfall. Of all the indictments former President Trump faces, one of the things that makes yesterday yesterdays unique is how many other defendants they are our. Because it is a rico case, trump was indicted along with 18 other codefendants. 19 people 19 all charged with being part of a Criminal Enterprise. Just like how giuliani charge charged the commission in the 1980s. And last night, Fulton County d. A. Fani willis made it clear that she intends to try this whole Criminal Enterprise together. Do i intend to try the 19 defendants in this indictment together . Yes. Now, we have seen plenty of highprofile cases against individual defendants play out in court over the past few years. The trial against trumps former Campaign Manager paul manafort, for example. We know how those trials work. But what about a case against 19 people . But what about a rico case . How will this all work . And now that all 19 of this these individuals are facing serious jail time, how soon until someone in this case flips . Because make no mistake, as much as trump is surrounded by coconspirators here, in both a federal case in the georgia case, even someone like Rudy Giuliani is ultimately just a capo in this Criminal Enterprise. The big boss the endgame here is Donald J Trump. And the question tonight is, does the rico law that Rudy Giuliani built his career on does that ultimately ensnare Donald J Trump . Joining me now is joyce vance former u. S. Attorney for the Northern District of alabama, and laura jarrett, senior Legal Correspondent for msnbc news. Laura and joyce, great to have you with us tonight. Laura, let me start with you tonight. I want to start with the news we have about mark meadows because mark meadows today is filing for a change of venue. He has filed with the Northern District of georgia to move fani williss case against him to Federal Court. Do you think such a move is likely . Whether or not it will be successful will be up to the judge. Let me just say, its not frivolous. Its not crazy. Whether or not he will win, we will have to see. But the argument is, what he is being charged with is a new indictment and has to do with new indictments actions he was taking while he was chief of staff. The Removal Statute says, if you have a coverable argument there, you get to remove it. Now, if the charge was that mark meadows originally allegedly robbed a bank, you would say, thats crazy. That has nothing to do with him being chief of staff. Right. Raging phone calls, putting pressure on State Officials he is saying that those are not per se criminal. Of course, prosecutors would disagree with him. Soliciting someone to violate their Oath Of Office they would say that is criminal. But again, it would be up to the judge. But i think this is going to the closer one than, perhaps, someone like Rudy Giuliani might right. And we are going to talk about giuliani in a second, joyce. To laura jarretts point we will talk about the merits of this is criminal behavior on the part of mark meadows. But moving this case the Federal Court has, i guess, the advantage of a different and presumably more sympathetic jury pool. How meaningful do you think that that will be for someone like mark meadows . So, i think sometimes we get too comfortable talking about juries as though they are a voting pools. We think about juries how does that county vote . In my experience as a prosecutor, peoples political beliefs really dont impact their jury service. Judges do a great job of telling them that they have to decide cases based on the evidence of the law that they are instructed on and that they hear in the courtroom and that they need to leave at the door any biases that they might have, including their political affiliation. We know juries are really good at doing that. So, while meadows and some of the other defendants trump may perceive some advantage in moving into Federal Court, where the jury pool exceeds Fulton County it goes up into georgias Northern Counties on the east. It touches alabama. So, some very conservative parts of the state. They may perceive an advantage. In reality, there may not really be a big one there. But even if there isnt an advantage, i think joyce would agree with me that, what this shows is the opportunity for a delay. This indictment hasnt even been baked for 24 hours, and already they have a removal motion going, and other defendants might do that. So i think it just shows you how fraught this is going to be to do with 19 people 19 defendants there is a Motion Practice that is going to go on for months. The idea that this is six months in the making is just not realistic. Yeah, joyce, i should mention that Rudy Giuliani, who we spent some time talking about at the start of this program, is also suggesting they should be moved to Federal Court. Is it a foregone conclusion that trump and everyone else involved in this is going to try to move it to Federal Court . To set aside the jury piece of it, how meaningfully could that delay this thing . So, laura is dead on the money. Motions practiced here will be all about delay. And it wont just be motions to remove. We will see a lot of them. They will be individual. They will have to be decided on their individual merits. Because these defendants will have different sort of status as to whether or not they can claim that they were a federal official or acting under the orders of a federal official, which is necessary to trigger removal. They will have different defenses. It will be a mess. And that will only be about one type of motion. Some defendants will file motions to dismiss, saying that the charges against them simply fail to stay the federal crime. It should be diminished on that basis. So, six months will pass in the blink of an eye, i suspect, while these pretrial motions are litigated. Whether this case ends up in Federal Court is a wide open question. But i think laura again is right to say that its not frivolous. And although the judge if the judge reads the paper, whatever the defendant sends to the federal judge is supposed to be a short, plain statement this one is not. Its rather lengthy and convoluted. The judge may well look at it and say, i cant read this and make a determination that it is okay to just send this back to state court. So, we need to have an evidentiary hearing. And that, of course, involves more delay, before we even decide which courthouse this case will move forward. In. Yeah. I do wonder i mean, when you talk about other various codefendants having different status, laura meadowss lawyers are making the case that what he did was arranging phone calls, made visiting official facilities, down at the state, in cobb county prosecutors are going to take issue with that. But i wonder, when we talk about flipping and sometimes the fact that sometimes when you have such a large pool of codefendants, the goal of the prosecutor is to leverage all of these people against each other. Do you see this giant number of codefendants as a potential pool for flipping just to be i dont know. Of course can we call it flippage . Im not sure. Of course. These are people who have very different Incentive Structures and then a person, say, like walt nauta who sort of has this unusual sort of loyalty and relationship with the former president. I dont know that kanye wests former publicists wants to face 5 to 20 years in prison. Im not saying she is going to get five to 20 years. She could easily get probation. But do do you want to gamble . That . She is part of the this is a serious charge i just think the incentives in this case a very different. And there are a wide range of people who are not Household Names who may decide that this is not something they are willing to bear and put their family through. But joyce, what about the Household Names . Because we know as tonight, there is reporting Rudy Giuliani is in dire financial straits. His apartment is up for sale. There are mounting legal bills which are not going away any time soon. Is that the kind of Leverage Prosecutors need to suggest that someone in trumps inner circle you would think that is who prosecutors would want to go for in particular could be turned to be a cooperating witness . Tell me how it works, joyce. Right. So, the people that you want most as your cooperating witnesses are the people who bring you the most value in terms of what they can testify to. And that may or may not be Rudy Giuliani in this situation. But something thats interesting with these folks whose names that we recognize is that many of them are lawyers. They appreciate what it might mean to spend two, three, five, 12 years in a georgia prison. They might be highly motivated to make sure that that is not the outcome that awaits them at the end of this trial. So, i think its not unreasonable to assume that we will see some of these people file their legal motions, see if they can get pulled from the herd if they have a defense that is unique to them, or some other ability to escape this sort of a prosecution, and then if they realize they really are right in fani williss sites, they may reach the point where they decide that it is going to go ahead and negotiate a deal to offer up whatever they have. It is a calculated risk, by the way, to litigate before you do that. Because typically, the first people to cooperate get the best deals. But some of these folks may feel like they have potential defenses that they want to run out, and let them play out before they decide whether or not to plead guilty and cooperate. Okay. There is a lot more to talk to both of you guys got about. So, please joyce vance, and laura jarrett, do not go anywhere. When we come back, new revelations about the Fake Electors scheme that are in fani williss indictment and why another shoe might be about to drop. But first, we know who the named Unindicted Coconspirators are, but what about the unnamed and Unindicted Coconspirators. Who could they be and what they they could do to the same case is coming up next stay with us. For a surprise. Meet arexvy. the first fdaapproved rsv vaccine. Arexvy is used to prevent lower Respiratory Disease from rsv in people 60 years and older. Rsv can severely affect the lungs and lower airways. Arexvy is proven to be over 82 effective in preventing lower Respiratory Disease from rsv and over 94 effective in those with these health conditions. arexvy does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients. Those with weakened Immune Systems may have a lower response to the vaccine. 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