Donald trump. The way to do that is to actually go after donald trump. That would take some courage between now and then. Yeah, that is that wishful thinking, to expect these guys to show up with courage and nikki haley as. Well alicia menendez, great to see you as always. Enjoy the rest of your evening off. And we will see you tomorrow, my friend. Thanks, ayman mohyeldin. Good evening, and welcome to ayman. Tonight, new developments in the Georgia Election case. Our first indication of when trump might surrender to authorities. And as trump allies push to move that case to Federal Court, legal experts are actually saying that would be a huge mistake. One of them, former Deputy Attorney general donald ayer will join us live to explain why. And in a landmark victory, 16 young people sued The State Of Montana over the climate, and guess what . The planet won. I am ayman mohyeldin. Lets get started. But first, we want to begin with some Breaking News on Hurricane Hilary. The National Weather service forecasters are saying that that has just been downgraded. Hurricane hilary is now a category two hurricane with estimated sustained winds at a maximum of hundred ten miles per hour. Rain and wind ahead of the storm are already affecting parts of county, that is the eastern part of san diego county. And riverside county, just north of imperial county. Those areas could end up bearing the brunt of the storm s rain. The very latest from the National Hurricane center it continues to warn catastrophic and lifethreatening flooding is likely. We are going to bring you quick updates throughout the night on the trajectory of that storm, and certainly, if we get any more news we will bring that to you as soon as possible. But switching away from Hurricane Hilary for a moment, and focusing tonight on some new developments and quite frankly, a new timeline in the Georgia Election interference case. This week, the disgraced ex president and several members of his inner circle were hit with Felony Charges in connection with their efforts to overturn the 2020 president ial Election Results in georgia. The Fulton CountyDistrict Attorney, fani willis, says that the Arrest Warrant has now been issued for all defend its, which have until Friday August 25th to surrender voluntarily. According to new reporting from nbc news, three senior Law EnforcementOfficials Say they expect trump to surrender no earlier than this upcoming thursday. That would be the day before that deadline. Arraignments are set to take place of the week of september 5th, with a proposed trial date of march 4th. Thats just one day before super tuesday. News reports that attorneys for trump or expected to meet early next week with the Fulton CountyDistrict Attorneys office, in order to negotiate the terms of the ex president s a bond package. News of that meeting comes just after trump canceled a monday press conference, you remain remember, he was supposed to unveil socalled evidence of fraud in georgias 2020 president ial election, setting the advice of his lawyers. Though, it doesnt look like thats happening. One look at his 41 count indictment, and you can kind of understand why trumps attorneys advised him to hit the brakes on at that press conference, if you will. Now, sweeping 98page documents really give us a most competitive look at how trump and his allies basically schemed to steal the election, including the quote, Criminal Enterprise that they built to do so. And at the heart of williss case is one specific georgia statute. The Racketeer Influence and corrupt organization, or as it is commonly known if you watch any movies or Law And Order episodes, rico law. It is a powerful tool that allows prosecutors to bundled together what may seem like unrelated crimes or events committed by a host of different people. If those crimes are perceived to be in support of a common goal. Its also ironically a law that helped a bolster the career of one of the codefendants in this case, Rudy Giuliani. I do think that the work in my office and other parts of the Justice Department have changed the definition of the problem of crime in america. Were going to attack it as a business, not just as individual crime. We followed up with some civil rico cases, and at some point in the future, in which we will really destroy the power of the mafia. I was the first one to use the racketeering statute, for public corruption. So, the very same law that helped the former u. S. Attorney for the Southern District of new york lockup mobsters and grab the National Spotlight in the process, could now very well land him behind bars. With that same sense of irony hardly applies to donald trump. Former trump fixer Michael Cohen since once said his ex boss quote hes mafia type tactics to battle foes and advance his personal agenda. And im sure you may remember trumps socalled perfect 2019 phone call with volodymyr zelenskyy, which he then the president asked ukraines leader, with a dialogue straight out of a mobsters movie, quote, do us a favor. So while trump has been compared to a mafia boss many times throughout this year, this weeks indictment as the new yorkers Susan Glasser points out, marks the first time anyone has done so in a court of law. And its this rico statute, along with several other factors unique to georgia, that really make williss investigation perhaps the most challenging legal case for team trump. See, if the ex president does take back the white house in 2024, that job comes with a huge perk for donald trump. He has the ability to pardon himself of any federal charges. At least, thats what most scholars think, but that is still debatable. However, that power does not apply to state crimes. In georgia, unlike in many other states, theres even an added twist. Its not up to the governor of georgia to actually issue pardons, instead, that power rests with a fiveperson panel. To make matters even more difficult for trump, the board only considers applications for pardons beginning at least five years after an individual has completed their sentence. Theres another factor that makes georgia so unique, and its one that trump may not like. Transparency in the courtroom. State law requires that cameras be allowed in judicial proceedings with a judges approval. And that means that over the next few months, americans from coast to coast could have the opportunity to tune in as the Sprawling Conspiracy case unfolds live on tv. So, if donald trump can attempt to run both for president and from his legal woes, this latest indictment in georgia proves there may be nowhere left for him to hide. Here to discuss all of this, david henderson, so rights attorney, and the cnbc contributor, greg bluestein, political reporter for the atlanta journalconstitution, hes also an msnbc political contributor, and michelle goldberg, a columnist for the New York Times and msnbc analyst. Three great friends of the show. Great to have all three of you back. Its quite the week, both politically and legally. We will start with the legal stuff. David henderson, breakdown for us how we go is used by with us here and why the use of the statute could make this case the ex president s for the indictment and by some assessment the most damaging one. Ayman, i do think this is the most damaging one. I think the primary reason is because of fani willis herself. I say that because she is going after former President Trump the way prosecutors typically go after defendants. January 6th indictment basically says, for the good of the country, we have to do this, was funny willis is saying, look, in Fulton County, if you create a Criminal Enterprise and youre stealing, i dont care if its Stealing Test Scores for teachers, i dont care if its a gangs involved in violent activity, if youre trying to steal an election, i am coming after you. And its almost like having all six infinity stones, because it gives her an incredible amount of power inside the courtroom. We watched the though the january six proceedings, and if your lawyer like me, youre thinking this evidence is overwhelmingly bad. But how are you going to get you talk about it all in the case. A lot of it isnt admissible. But fani willis said it best herself, the rico statute allows you to tell the jury the entire story of what happened. Whereas over acts like Giuliani Attacking Ruby Freeman and shaye moss would normally be inadmissible, in a rico case, you can talk about all of it. And the reason thats important is because a jury doesnt need a good case, a jury needs a bad guy to convict. And there are an infinite number of ways that you can prove the former President Trump is exactly that when this goes to trial. Really quickly, david, how does this play out with 19 defendants . Obviously the 19 or not going to be on trial at once, or they . Well, fani willis says she intends to try them all at once. And i have to be honest with you, ive never seen a case like that before. I treat Child Advocacy and i never tell my students, try a case by yourself. Always have at least one other lawyer there or get your mom there if you have to take notes with you. That means youre talking about 19 defendants, 38 lawyers, thats 57 people. And 19 people objecting at any given point in time. But this takes me back to my original point, shes treating him like any other defendant, and her expectation is that shes going to squeeze people, people will flip, there plead, will drop out before this goes to trial, so that number will get lower down. So, to davids point about the fact that fani willis is really coming at this hard with the racketeering charge, this isnt the first time shes used this expensive law in georgia. She is widely considered an expert, shes even brought on somebody whos even more of an expert or consider to be more of a rico expert. How does the d. A. s history play into this specific case with this law . Yeah, shes telegraphed that she would seek rico charges from the very beginning, including her own background she brought on rico expert but she herself is a rico expert. About a decade ago, she brought rico charges against a group of School Teachers and administrators that were perpetrating an Atlanta School cheating scandal. And was successful in it. So she herself has used rico charges to go after street gangs, to go after cheating teachers. And now, potentially, after the former president. So she is kind of honed this craft over the last decade, and has the expertise in office to be able to pursue these charges. Michelle, as i mentioned, donald trump over the years has been often compared to a crime boss from people like Michael Cohen, from people that have observed him and the way he talks, even the way that he operates, as unnecessarily write things down, gives these orders, takes a step back, other people fall for him. What does it mean for someone like trump who has spent his entire business and political career behaving, speaking like a Mob Stir Mobster to be essentially called day mobster in a court of law . Dare i even say so, satisfying. Because we see trump indicted obviously three times before this, but to have trump and his operation, forthrightly referred to as a Criminal Enterprise, which hes always run his political career as a political enterprise. He ran the white house in many ways as a Criminal Enterprise. But there is something of affirming after having watched this kind of avalanche of lies and corruption and scandal and s kind of an anti authoritarianism. To have somebody call it what it is has been such a relief. And i think for trump, even these put aside the very real possibility that he could spend the rest of his life in prison, and adjust the fact that he is going to have to sit there every day, in one courtroom after another, somebody whos never been able to sit still, somebody who kind of cant has no attention span, who has never been able to be undistracted for any length of time. Day after day he is going to have to sit there on television probably, in the case of georgia, listening to the evidence against him. Its as if he had to sit through the January 6th Hearings. And i think its so important that the January 6th Hearings, we saw the effect not just david spoke about a jury. But in terms of the populace. We saw the effect that the January 6th Hearings had on the american population. And now we have an opportunity to recapitulate that, for people to remember just what he put this country through. Thats such an important point as well, because he plays so much to the public audience. Not specifically to the courtroom. So, it will be important that is counter waited by the fact that the American People will be able to see directly for themselves the case made against donald trump. David, let me ask you, just from a legal strategy here, in the dojs election interference case, trump is the only one facing charges in georgia. That is not the case. And because he cannot pardon if hes elected or if i republican president is elected in the next cycle they cannot pardon any of these folks you get convicted, if they do get convicted. Could the stiff penalties associated with rico incentivize these defendants to cooperate in this case, unlike perhaps in another case . Perhaps like in the documents case, where you have walt nauta and others that are codefendants . Absolutely. And this builds on Michelle Goldbergs point. That a federal prosecution wouldnt, not the least of which is, not only are you looking at time, but youre looking at time in the state pen. That tends to make people have an awareness about when its good to flip, about other kinds of car serration. Dont but i think that picture actually gets complex if you think about it, because so far none of these trials have gone to trial very quickly, and they take an incredibly long time to try. The case against the teachers with the Test Score Set a record in georgia, it lasted for eight months. So the real issue is not simply whether or not former President Trump is reelected, whether he can pardon himself, but can also make the argument that look, i cant be tried up in a trial that is going to last up to a year, which is more realistic, while im running for president. And i hate to say it, but i think he has a chance of succeeding with that argument. The flipside is, he is running for president , to raise money to pay his lawyers. If he is not reelected, i dont know how he can continue to pay these legal bills for any period of time, considering this case and all the legal battle hes fighting, because however that bill is now, its going to be eclipsed once we actually start getting to trial. Because lawyers cost a whole lot more when you are in court. Yeah, the gift continues. Greg bluestein, i mask, you follow georgia politics a lot more than i do. But everyone has been following georgia politics for the last couple of years. You have some new reporting on how brian kemp, the governor down there, and other Top Republican officials they are basically brushing off calls from Trump Supporters to overhaul the states pardon rules in light of this indictment. I think most americans would find that to be egregious just by looking at, it changing the rules just for trump. But what are the ex president s supporters asking for . And how is the governor responding . Yeah, there is such a high bar in georgia to issue a pardon. First of all, as you mentioned earlier, the governors governor doesnt even have the direct power to appoint a board of pardons and false, and then to be eligible you have to serve your complete sentence and then wait five years and be in good standing. So, that means that even if there was some sort of power to pardon trump here in georgia, you have to serve the sentence and wait five. Youre so, theres already calls to review and revamp those pardons legislation. First of all, it would take a constitutional amendment to do significant changes to pardons. And the governor and key State Lawmakers have said they have absolutely no appetite for this. There is also a separate call through a special legislative session to review District Attorney fani willis and potentially try to sanction her or even asked her from office and, again, key Republican Leaders in the Georgia Legislature in georgia government say they have absolutely no appetite for that either. In fact, there was a State Senator who made that, call to sign a petition and, as of right now, there is only one line maker on the petition. That is it. Michelle goldberg, i have to ask you, we were sup