Transcripts For MSNBCW Alex 20240703

President Trump Editing for dictators, he could not get enough of them. There is a very public friendship between trump and putin, but there were other examples to. There were his love letters to new york korean dictator kim jongun. There was his reporting willingness to protect saudi crown prince, mohammed bin salman, aka mbs, even after mbs ordered the killing of an american journalists. And then there was the former president in the philippines, rodrigo duterte. During the trump administration, president duterte went on a brutal extrajudicial killing spree. He ordered the murder of thousands of people he claimed were suspected drug dealers without any trial, without any due process. Duterte was right in the middle of the campaign of bloodshed when President Trump Praise Duterte for what trump said was an unbelievable job on the drug problem. So, yeah. But trump gave detect a more than just praise. He also gave him highly Sensitive Information about u. S. Nuclear submarines off the coast of the korean peninsula. According to a transcript of a call between trump and duterte in april of 2017, the two leaders were discussing the north Korean Nuclear threat when trump called the Filipino Strongman about two active nuclear subs stationed near north korea. We have to submarines, the best in the world. We have two Nuclear Submarines. Not that we want to use them at all. I have never seen anything like there, we dont have to use this. But kim jongun could be crazy. So, we will see what happens. According to buzzfeed news, Defense Officials were livid about trumps disclosure, saying, quite plainly, we never talk about subs. That was the first time we learned that trump had spilled secrets about nuclear summaries, but it was hardly an isolated incident. That same year trump had a highlevel meeting to discuss a north Korean Missile launch, not in the Situation Room at the white house, but on the Outdoor Dining terrace at maralago. Trump was dining with the japanese Prime Minister when he got the news of the missile launch, and the club was filled with random people who do not have security clearances. And instead of going somewhere private to discuss the missile launch, trump decided to take the classified briefing with desert. A Maralago Club member even posted photos of this classified briefing to facebook with the caption, wow. Center of the action yep. That same year, trump hosted the Russian Ambassador and the Foreign Minister at the white house, which would have been controversial enough on its own, had we not later learned that President Trump also divulged highly Classified Information to those two russian officials as well. Also that year, trump went on fox news and appeared to disclose Classified Information about a previously unknown cia data breach. The cia, i just want people to know. The cia was hacked and a lot of things taken. That was during the obama years. That was not during us. That was during the obama situation. All of that all of that took place during trumps very first year in august. That stuff alone was year one. It did not end there. There was the time trump tweeted a classified drone photo of an iranian space facility. There was a time he sat down for an interview with Journalist Bob Woodward and ended up revealing the existence of a secret u. S. Nuclear program. And it was the now infamous moment where trump allegedly waved around a classified iran war plans, in front of biographer while demanding that someone bring him a coke. Now, today, the New York Times and abc news are reporting and yet another instance of trump giving way americas secrets. According to these new reports, after he left office, trump gave away yet more Classified Information about Americas Nuclear subs, this time, to an australian billionaire. The billionaire is a man named anthony pratt, who runs one of the Worlds Largest Cardboard Companies and is a club member at maralago. According to this new reporting, trump pratt highly Sensitive Information that could endanger the u. S. Nuclear fleet, including the supposed exact number of Nuclear Warheads usa marines routinely carry and exactly how close they supposedly can get to a Russian Submarine without being detected. According to sources who spoke with abc news, that australian billionaire then described trumps remarks to at least 45 others, including six journalists, 11 of his company s employees, ten australian officials, and three former australian Prime Ministers. So, not a discreet person, this cardboard mogul. Now, nbc news has not independently verified these reports. But it appears the reason we are learning all of this now is because special counsel jack smiths team has reportedly interviewed that australian billionaire, that cardboard and theyve put him on the list of 80 witnesses who could classify testify in the maralago classified documents in may, which raises a whole bunch of questions about the evidence jacks it has amassed in this case that we dont even know about. Yet. Joining me now is former u. S. Attorney for the Eastern District of michigan, barbara mcquade, who also is the sisters in law post, and devlin barrett, author of the trump trials newsletter. Devlin, im reminded of a piece you wrote in november. The headline is always stuck with me. Ill pull it up now. Investigators say see ego, not money, as trumps motive on classified papers. I thought of that headline when we learned this news about trump bragging about Nuclear Submarines and divulging Secret Information to random cardboard moguls. How do you see this Behavior Dovetailing with your thesis . I think, to your point, there are examples of this. It is not just one instance. These are not one of. This is a thing he tends to do, which is sort of talk about areas and get into conversations with people that the security professionals, the intelligence officials, dont want him to get into. I will say, there was one weird Silver Lining in some of this. And to go back to the point you made about him waving around the iranian document, as far as we can tell, he often get significant details wrong here. So, one of the in conversation, i mean so, one of the strange elements of this whole situation is that this incident could obviously be used as evidence of contempt and potential harm by jack smith in the trial. But it also may not necessarily be chargeable if the information he is relaying to people is not correct. So ironic that you can actually count on the information somehow being wrong, and therefore, its not as much of a security breach. I do have to ask you, though, as a reporter, the instances of trump giving away secrets i mean, these are just the ones we know of. There were so many in the first year in office. This behavior continues in his post presidency. It seems like, devlin barrett, it is impossible for us to truly have a handle on how much he is talking out of turn. Right. And you see so much of his public persona is just sort of, for lack of a better term, riffing, and for someone who gets the president ial daily brief for years and years, riffing can be quite dangerous or problematic. You can see many examples of this. Obviously there, is a significant concern here. And, to your point, there are 80 people listed as potential witnesses in this case. You have to think about what are the odds that this particular australian is the only person who is going to tell a story like this about private conversations about the former president. Yeah, that is exactly, right barb. The fact, as we are learning about this person because of jack smith. And he has a list 80 people long. We know about we have sort of bread crumbs. But what is the fact that this anecdote has not been relayed before . It has been kept under wraps . It wasnt in the indictment. What does that tell you about the strength of jack smiths case, at least as we can ascertain that from the outside . I think this is just one example of many pieces of evidence that we are going to hear about at the trial that are not currently known. This story, that weve heard about from this australian billionaire, seems to me something that would be offered under rule of evidence for 404 b even though it is not relate to the charges in the indictment if they can prove things like intent or modus operandi, or absence of a mistake. So, for that absence, it could be that they want to hear this story from this australian billionaire, and maybe about the way donald trump would be very reckless in handling Classified Information. Because that will tend to prove that he was very reckless in handling the dodges with which he was charged. Can i ask, though, one of the things that jack smith declined to do was persuade dissemination, charge barb. And the thing is, whether with malign intent or not, the fact that he is in fact disseminating this to random cardboard moguls, why not pursue a Dissemination Charge if you are jacks mitt and the doj . So, prosecutors have to think about, number one, can i file this charge in and number two, should i file this charge . So, it is absolutely a crime to probably disclose Classified Information. And we dont know all the reasons. But i can tell you something that could be at play here. Number one, when there is an oral communication, it is much more difficult to prove. Because you have to prove that what the australian Billionaire Heard is accurate, that he is reporting it accurately and that it was, in fact, classified. And so it may be that donald trump was making it up. Maybe he was puffing. Maybe he got the facts wrong, as we heard here. The other thing about it is, if you need to prove that up, they might need to prove up that those facts are true. If they are classified pieces of information, may be that the government is more concerned about safeguarding that information then it is about winning any particular count. There were times when i was working as a National Security prosecutor when i had cases or counts i wanted to bring that the Intelligence Community put the kibosh on it and said, no, it just is not worth it. Because you cant reveal this Classified Information to the public. So, you are just going to have to let this one slide. To that end, devlin, trump has accessed Classified Information once again as part of the Discovery Process in the maralago trial. He wanted to have a scif as secure facility essentially set up at maralago, which would have been ironic, since that is effectively the crime he is being charged with, classified documents at maralago. Do you have a sense of the degree to which that classify Discovery Process is proceeding . The judge ordered a number of safeguards for trump in this process, or safeguards against trump sharing this Discovery Information as part of the Discovery Process. Ease is it chugging merrily process . How the Cisa Process Is sorry to use the acronym is for seeding in this case . So sensitive or the Originating Agencies consider them so sensitive that they have yet to find a good location to store them in florida. So, part of the Trump Lawyers are making the argument that this dynamic is a reason why they need to push back some of the Court Deadlines in this case. But it gives you a sense of how meaningful some of these documents are, that the agencies who made them dont even want them kept in the state of florida. There is about five of them that they want to just stay in d. C. But they are trying to find, essentially, a military or intelligence base, in florida, where they feel comfortable and its safe enough to put him there. And that just speaks to a lot of what we are talking about, which is that some of this stuff is just very, very sensitive. Barb, we know that judge cannon has effectively put litigation on hold wall, basically, she considers trump s motion to delay this case, this trial, until after the 2024 election. Can you explain what is going on here . And how optimistic you are that judge cannon will abide precedent or the law . Or how sympathetic she may be in terms of Donald Trumps defense . I think this issue is going to be a good test of her impartiality. She has come under some fire based on some prior rulings that she has made that were favorable to donald trump. But here, is donald trump entitled to more time . I think we need to know more facts about this and how long it is going to take for them to be able to review these few sensitive documents that devlin has discussed. But the idea that they need a little extra time is not measured in days or weeks, but six months. They have to go from may until all the way past november. That strikes me as just a bridge too far. And so, i think we will be looking to see whether she asks pointed questions, whether she determined exactly how much time they need, and whether it needs to push that trial date. And, if so, increments of 30 days, 60 days, not six months. What happens after November Of 2024 . Barb mcquade and devlin barrett, thank you both for your time, reporting, analysis and wisdom. I appreciate it. Thank you, alex. There is not more ahead tonight, including ron desantis. Poll numbers might not be rising, but his height might be. We will have more on that coming up. But first, new details on what Donald Trumps Gilded Manhattan Triplex an alleged scheme to deceive lenders. That is next. Stay with us. Next stay with us detect this living with hiv, i learned that i can stay undetectable with fewer medicines. Thats why i switched to dovato. Dovato is a complete hiv treatment for some adults. No other complete hiv pill uses fewer medicines to help keep you undetectable than dovato. 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Today, a new York Appeals Court rejected Donald Trumps latest attempts to delay his civil fraud trial, allowing it to continue full steam ahead next week. And now that we have wrapped week one of this trial, we have some riveting new details courtesy of Trump Organization comptroller jeff mcconney, who took the stand admitted evaluations of trumps properties were fraudulent, not by accident, but by design. Now, we have known for a while now that trump was allegedly inflating the value of his apartments and golf courses and so forth. Attorney general Letitia James presented that evidence to the judge in this trial, who has already found the trum organization guilty of fraud. But today we were given a detailed look at the extent to which trumps business hyped the value of his properties, and it is staggering to see. Take maralago. Last week, judge engoron fled the whopping 300 . According to financial documents, maralago was worth between 426 million and 612 million, all based on the premise that it could be sold as a private residence. Today, we learned that that was a complete farce, and that is because the deed for maralago clearly states it can only be used as a social club. And if trump cannot sell maralago as a private residence, then it would likely be worth a whole lot less, to the tune of 18 to 27. 6 million, according to palm beach counties appraisal. Then there is trumps Iconic Rococo apartment in trump tower is today, prosecutors asked mcconney about the value of that very shiny penthouse, which was, according to trump, with 180 million. And yet, a similar manhattan apartment, with extras, including a Waterfront View and which was allegedly owned by a foreign royal, that similar apartment was more than 100 million cheaper than what trump valued his at. Now, mr. Mcconney, the Trump Organizationomptroller claimed his 180 Million Dollar estimate was based on Square Footage and that trumps blindingly gold apartment was so expensive because it was 30,000 square foot. But that estimate, according to the judgin this case, is also an obvious lie. Trumps triplex is really around 10,000 square feet, which is, by the way, thousands of feet smaller than the similar Apartment Worth 100 million less. Joining me now is kristy greenberg, former deputy chief for the Criminal Division of the Southern District of new york. Kristy greenberg, thank you for joining me here. There is exaggeration and theres boldface lying. We surprised by the audacity of these inflations . A lot of this was laid out in the judges order last week. And it is interesting because theyre the judge said, look, this is a documents case, on that one count, on just the perpetual fraud. It is a documents case. This is plainly false just given the magnitude of these numbers and how different they are. This is egregious. And you used these documents in business. So, therefore, you are liable for that other count. But now we are getting into, it the trial, other counts. Insurance fraud, falsified business record, falsified financial statements. And there you have to show intent to defraud, and that these are materially false statements, that somebody, whether it is a lender or ensure, whatever, lied and them to give them unfavorable terms. And there, this defense that they are peddling which is, well, valuation, it is more of an art than a science but this is matt. Like, these numbers dont add up. They are nowhere close to any of the other appraisals that are comparable. It cant be the case. And it seems like they are going to have an experts say that there is no such thing as an objective valuation because, and therefore you can never have an intent to defraud with valuation, and its ludicrous. Especially when you are saying that this maralago is worth so much money because it can be sold as a private residence, and the deed says it can never be sold as a private residence, right . Right. And thats where you have the judge saying, we are in Fantasy World here. We are not in real world. Where deeds dont matter. Where Square Footage can be inflated by 10,000, 20,000 square feet, where objective numbers are not being calculated property. It defies logic. I do wonder if there is a brand premium that they attached to the value of some of these properties, saying, because it has the word trump on it it is worth 30 to 50 more . Now, that seems more fungible, right . Like, depending on what you year of trumpism that we are talking about, then maybes worth more before the president ial election that it is after the fact . Is that something where there is any merit to the argument that the name matters . And the inability to paid a specific value is not inherently fraudulent. Or, pegging a specific value to it is not inherently fraudulent . I think the issue there is, when you have a singular property, and he is playing both sides of it so, when he is talking to the irs, that property all of a sudden has low valleys. So, his liability goes down in taxes. But then, that same property, when he wants to get a favorable term on alone, is a high value. So, you cant have it both ways. I do wonder also if the reality of what has happened to Trump Properties are basically distressed assets at this point. There is videotape of people taking the name trump off of buildings across the country, whether that reality comes into play here, right . Is that something that the prosecution could argue . Or is that too subjective to be admissible in a court of law . There is well, here, there is a ten year period that went up until 2021 yes. We are at that point where there was certainly backlash, and that kind of thing is considered. Again, i do think there is something to it, that there is some wiggle room here that, when you look at some of the appraisals, yeah, they are off by some magnitude. But its not to hundreds of millions of dollars, which is what they were doing. And it is clearly very intentional. That is what the testimony of this trial is revealing of it. He wanted to inflate his assets to be more wealthy, so he could be on the forbes list. I do want to ask you, because today, i believe, the Appeals Court has basically halted the judges order to cancel the business certificates for some of trump s new york companies. Trump is saying this is a massive victory for him. The Attorney Generals Office is saying, we were always fine with this. We have not lost anything here. Who is right . Yeah, its just to say. That means they are just delaying this for a while. And essentially, lets this trial play out. The the six claims, as well as additional trying to figure out what the discouragement is. What itll gotten gains are going to be clawed back . What penalties apply . And this seems to be along those lines of trying to figure out what the penalties that apply would be. And so, i think it makes sense to stay, it seems like a solid decision. It is certainly not a win for him a bit. It kicks the can down the road a little bit. When youre only tactic is delay, it might seem like a. When kristy greenberg, thank you for the second of his financial madness for. Me appreciate it. Ahead for us tonight, now that Kevin Mccarthy has been given the boot, who is Donald Trumps next topic for speaker . And speaking of the boot, just what was going on with ron desantis his foot where when he was on bill maher . We are going to talk about that next. The ball is out and theres a pileup. Lets go get in the pile ugh, ill deal with this tomorrow. You wont. Its ripe in here. My eyes are watering. Im a busy man. Look how crusty this is. Shameful. Ugh, its just too much. Not with this. Tide. Tide can tackle any pile. That a tackle pun . Just clean the pile, ron. Okay. This too. That was easy. When stains and odors pile up, its got to be tide. The citi custom cash® card automatically adjusts to earn you more cash back in your top eligible spend category. Hi. You dont have to keep tabs on rotating categories. This is the only rotating i care about. Or activate anything to earn. Your cash back automatically adjusts for you. Can i get a Cucumber Water . 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Not even a light jog for their money. Right now, in an average of polls, support for desantis stands at 14. 7 . That is down from upwards of 40 back in january, which is just a shocking waste of money and resources, given that desantis has spent many billions of dollars since he announced his candidacy and has really only sunken lower and lower in the polls. And that sinking may have something to do with the how shall i put this . The lifting that seems to be setting the internet on fire this week. Social media theorists believe that Governor Desantis is now wearing some sort of secret heel concealed in his footwear, in an attempt to look just a little bit taller. Now, nbc news has not confirmed this. Nbc has not even investigated it. But its a compelling theory, if you look at all the posts. I will say that his motivation here is historically grounded. Americans liked all president s. Every single president since jimmy carter has been five foot 11 inches or taller. Donald trump is six foot three inches, biden is six foot. And desantis is maybe, i dont know. Maybe five foot nine inches . No one seems to know for sure. But here is what desantis looked like without heels, it seems, and before he announced he was running for president , not super tall. Not towering over people. But here is a photo taken this february with tiger woods. And boy, does Governor Desantis look a lot taller. We know that tiger woods is six foot one inches because it says so right here on the official pga door website. So, could it be . This is its not an insignificant number of inches here. More than a cowboy boot alone could account for. Are their secret heels in Ron Desantiss boots . As an occasional high heel waiver myself, i find it tricky to take the stairs and heels, which is maybe what is happening here in this video. Could those secret heels be affecting Governor Desantisgait . Here he is last week on real time with bill maher, getting ribbed for cowboy boots and a suit. No Vaccine Mandates allowed in the state. We are going to get to, that we are going to get to that. [applause] i know, but people do Wear Cowboy Boots with a suit. Thats right. Another reason to be proud of it now, listen, if people want to appear taller or slimmer or more svelte or less felt in fact, many people, most people, even, dont take issue with a man in heels. Except for governor ron desantis, who has made attacks against Transgender Americans a central part of his campaign. He has censored Drag Performances and pride events in the state. He has criminalized transgender people for using the restroom that matches their Gender Identity. He has penalized provided to give genderaffirming care, and has even banned the instruction of Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity in public schools. Here is the thing. Governor desantis should be able to wear his heels, as should Everyone Else who wants to wear them. Even if it wont make any of them president. When we come back, we will take a look at what down trump has done to his own partys crop of president ial candidates, and how he has consolidated power ahead of 2024. That is next. Liberty mutual customized my Car Insurance and i saved hundreds. With the money i saved, i started a dog walking business. I was a bit nervous at first but then i figured its just walking, right . [dog barks] oh. No its just a bunny calm down taco. Sit duchess. Stop sesame no no. Archie walter dont, no, ahhhh. Ahhhhh youre lucky youre so cute. Only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Bladder leak underwear has one job. I just want to feel protected especially for those sudden gush moments. When your keys are in the door and your bodys like, its happening if youre worried about your protection, its not the right protection. 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That evening, i actually email the chief of police, and it said, based on what i am hearing, it sounds to me like these people have all been kidnapped, that they were all victims of a crime. That was a clip from the brandnew msnbc documentary Marthas Vineyard versus desantis, which premiers at ten pm 10 00 pm this sunday on msnbc and streaming on peacock that documentary explores a heinous incident in september of last year when Florida Governor ron desantis was flirting with a run for the presidency. As a political stunt, men, Women And Children who have just arrived from venezuela, people who were in this country legally were lured onto flights paid for by the government of florida and sent to Marthas Vineyard in massachusetts with the false problem this promise of a jobs and housing. 49 of the most vulnerable people, exploited and endangered, so desantis could show the maga base how tough he was an immigration before he ran for president. And for what . Desantiss attempt to win the republican nomination is absolutely flailing. He is now trailing nikki haley in new hampshire. His campaign is burning through cash. And donald trump is hoovering up all the attention around the 2024 election and pretty much everything else. Joining me now is Patrick Gaspard ceo of the center for American Progress action fund and former dnc director. Patrick, thank you for being here tonight. Thank you, alex, for having me. Alleged criminal behavior, which is that trumps influence reaches a post presidency peak. Trump is at the apex of his power. As a creature of politics, i wonder if you can explain how this has happened. Alex, it is an incredibly difficult thing to wrap your brain around, somebody has been indicted four times, impeached twice, broken nearly every norm in the country, failed dramatically the economy absolutely upside down. And yet, inside of his own party, there is a new Permission Structure about what constitutes the norm and what is at the center of the party and what animates that aspirations for the future. Yeah. We saw that play out in the speakers contest recently, when they booted Kevin Mccarthy for allegedly not being maga enough, not being conservative enough. If you look at all the contestants for the gop primary price, you get up on that stage, all of them affirmed on trumps behavior and, instead of creating any count ability whatsoever, they double down on the notion that he should not have been impeached, that they would have defended him during that moment of crisis. They seem to have turned a blind eye to the scenes of january 6th. And none of them, not only do they not attack him for the sins that he has been indicted for, but they dont even bring up the attacks he launches against military leaders in this country whose assassination he has called for. General mark milley. So, they have moved the goalposts. Theyve changed what is acceptable inside that partys elite infrastructure, and that gives donald trump the path to dominate in a really cultish environment the other part of it that i think is really distressing is the way they have embraced the cruelty of donald trump. We played that tape of the desantis documentary because it is so exemplary of a man who believe that using human beings as ponce is not a liability, but a strength, showing people that you can deny them their own humanity is a strong mans defense for why he deserves even more power. And that, to me, seems like a very staggeringly Bad Development in republican politics. Is and yet none of them have been able to wield the cudgel of cruelty as effectively as donald trump. Why do you think why do you think donald trump has been able to dispatch with all of them so expeditiously . One, you cant out maga the king kong of maga. And lets remember something, alex. When you run for the presidency, particularly when you run as an early front runner, all eyes are on you all the. Time and people that come across you on the trail have to have the impression that you enjoyed being around them, where is the governor of florida treats Voter Contact as if its a communicable communicable disease. He seems to have an allergic reaction to. It and people feel that. But heres the thing. You just went through a litany of Extremist Actions that ron desantis has taken on. Here is why it actually matters in the numbers that you actually just put up their. The things that he did to Marthas Vineyard actually rebounded against him in new hampshire. Lets look at this. Back in july when he enjoyed 26 of the support of self identified moderate republicans in new hampshire. He was ahead of an almost neck and neck state and now that 26 of moderate republican support for him has plummeted to 6 . The same issue nationwide. If you look at the track of the quinnipiac well, he was trailing trump nationally by six points, he was dominating him with self identified moderate republicans. Guess what . Those people are actually turned off when you attack young people and treat education as a pawn in the culture wars, when he attacked mickey mouse and chased disney out of your state to the tune of A Billion Dollar loss to that state when you attack vaccination and you attack this notion of the things that kept us safe during covid, so if identified moderate republicans get turned away from you. And there are enough of them in that party that a could have created a Counter Coalition against trump. But instead, they are now looking towards nikki haley, theyre looking towards scott, they are looking towards chris christie. And moderate republicans are starting to move back to to joe biden there it is. To joe biden, who all of this will benefit him in the fall of next year. But lets remember that republican women were repulsed by the Dobbs Decision of the supreme court. And this governor from florida has signed a sixweek abortion ban in florida. Right. Folks pick up on that, and they are repulsed by. I dont know is not that good at how to talk about reproductive concerns more broadly. Joe biden . Nine billion dollars in Student Loan Forgiveness this week. Jobs report shows 336,000 jobs created or grown in september. Not a bad week if you are president biden, getting ready to go up against that clown show on the other side that clown show. Patrick gaspard, thank you for your time tonight. I really appreciate it. Thank you. We have much more this evening, including trumps topic for house speaker, and why it is up to moderate republicans we just talked about them to stop them. Michelle goldberg joins me on, that coming up next. And it could strike at any time. Think youre not at risk . Wake up. Because shingles could wake up in you. 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She was always out of breath. Thats when i decided to introduce the farmers dog to her diet. Its just so fresh that she literally gets bubbles in her mouth. Now shes a lot more active, shes able to join us on our adventures. And were all able to do things as a family. Get started at betterforthem. Com heres why you should switch from chrome to duckduckgo. Duckduckgo is a browser you download to your mobile and desktop devices. Unlike chrome, the Duckduckgo Browser has privacy builtin. It comes with a private alternative to google search, which doesn■t spy on your searches, and it blocks cookies and creepy ads. And theres no catch. Its free. We make money from ads, but they dont follow you around. Nice i am actually kind of join the millions of people taking back their privacy by Downloading Duckduckgo On Mobile and desktop today. Amazed sometimes that people donald trump talking him last week. On january six, did you speak with him before, during, or after the capitol was attacked . I would have to go i spoke with him that day after. I think, after. I dont know if i spoke with him in the morning without, i just dont know. I would have to go back and i mean, i dont know when those conversations happened. But what i know is i spoke to him all the time. That was ohio congressman jim jordan, unable to answer the question of when he spoke with President Donald Trump on january 6th. Jordan defied a subpoena from the january 6th House Committee so he would not have to testify about it, and now he is the chair of the house weaponization committee, spearheading the so far futile effort to find evidence of political insiders using federal power to punish conservatives. Congressman jordan is also attempting to interfere with the investigation into trumps effort to overturn georgias Election Results by launching a congressional investigation into the District Attorney down there, fani willis. And all of that has helped jim jordan secure the backing of donald trump, in jordans bill to become the next speaker of the house. Today, on truth social, trump gave the congressman his complete and total endorsement. House republicans are meeting next week to decide whether to put trumps guy in charge, which is why, as Michelle Goldberg points out in her latest oped in the New York Times, it is now up to moderate republicans to save the house. If only they can muster up some bravery to do so. Michelle goldberg joins me now. Michelle, thanks for being here. And the question is thank you. If not now, when, moderates . If not now, when . Is this the moment . Are you optimistic . No, im not optimistic. And the reason i wrote the column was not because i actually think that this is likely to happen, but because a, its what should happen, and its actually, i think, a more reasonable ask than what we heard from both republicans and a lot of pundits in the last which is, why didnt democrats save Kevin Mccarthy . A lot of hand wringing, that the democrats did not step up and save the speakership in exchange for a very explicit guarantee of nothing whatsoever. Republicans moderate republicans which is a relative term, would not even have to vote for jeffries. I think that if you had moderate republicans come up with some sort of relatively moderate candidate, they could make a deal with democrats. And they would sort of be in the catbird seat, right . All they need to do they dont have to vote for someone from another party, they dont have to vote for someone who disagrees with them on all the major issues. In fact, what they could do is find someone, who basically, is one of them, and elevate them. But, again, i dont hold out that much hope of them having the courage to insert the same sort of political power that matt gaetz and his faction have exerted. Do you think it is purely a matter of the terror that would be inflicted upon them by the far right maga base of the House Republican conference . Because, politically speaking, they are on pretty solid ground, right . If you are a moderate republican looking for a more consensus candidate, if you have democratic support, there are a lot of moderates in the house if you go back to you or joe biden dominated swing districts, it probably works out well for you. So, is it just the threats of the tweets and the fox news hits . I dont know what it is besides just pure cowardice, and kind of a Milquetoast Orientation to politics. But you are absolutely right. You have a fair number of republicans, certainly enough to swing the house, that come from districts that voted for joe biden, sometimes, by double digits. And so they are not going to, presumably, want to be going into 2024 with a house led by this kind of people for trumps figures in jordan. Thats what but this has been something that has been confounding throughout the trump years, hes the inability of people to stand up to them, even when it is in their own political interests. How much, michelle, do you think Trump Suggestion that he might have to unify the conference by becoming temporarily, of course, speaker of the house how much you think that that is going to inform the ultimate election of a new speaker . I dont think that that was ever very likely. And i actually think that that would have been, in some ways, the best thing that could have happened to joe biden. Because, if donald trump had been speaker of the house, it would have he would have been a sort of incumbent and would have reminded people every single day what it was like to be ruled by donald, trump and people like him less the more they see of him. I do think that there is going to be it is still hard for me to see how i mean, we live in a dark time, where jim jordan becomes the speaker. And so i would imagine that Donald Trumps endorsement is dispositive for a lot of people. But it is still hard for me to see how this caucus unifies on any of these candidates. I dont, myself i also dont think trump will be the next speaker of the house, for however long. But i wonder if he radicalizes the party, in a way. Just huge sheer presence encourage encourages them, like the pied piper, to march towards the music. I think it might encourage some people to march towards jim jordan. And again, Kevin Mccarthy was a kind of slabish Slavish Lakia Down Trump Kevin Mccarthy had other priorities or other agenda items in mind, besides just serving donald trump, whereas i think jim jordan, we really see the house become completely a subsidiary of the maga movement. It can always get worse. We will leave our viewers on that note. Its friday evening. [laughter] happy friday. Michelle goldberg, thank you for joining me tonight. I appreciate it. Thank you. That is a show for this evening. And now it is time for The Last Word with ali velshi, who is in for lawrence. At least youre not tempting fate by saying you should always get worse right, because all we have to say is cant go worse than this. Considering that politics are becoming so predictable is somewhat numbing these days, in the worst way. Ruth marcuss suggestion that donald trump as speaker would at least keep it interesting. I dont need house to be more interesting than it is. You live in interesting times. Somebody else, right. You live in interesting trey times, the rest of us can live here. Have a good time, see you next week. Right now in america there are two dame trumps,ot