Transcripts For MSNBCW Ayman 20240703

Ties with israel. And in fact, israel has stayed largely neutral, in the war in ukraine or, in what is perceived to be partially because it is trying to maintain its relationship with moscow. And, so russia clearly has some allegiances, on various sides of this conflict, and it remains to be seen how, and whether it is going to try to insert itself, diplomatically, to play either a productive, or a counterproductive, role in bringing an end to this. Violence yet, not to mention it still has relationships with iran, and that also complicates everything even more. Iran, be accused of being the backer of hamas, and being a proxy to both hezbollah and hamas, and other militant groups in the region. And, obviously because of what is happening in ukraine, israel, sorry what has happened between russia, it has relied heavily on iran for some support, on that front with ukraine. Dan, do we have a sense of what intelligence capabilities the United States is prepared to share with israel, Going Forward . I think that already, of course, the u. S. And israel have a very close intelligence relationship, so theres nothing that we withhold from israel. As you will. But, in this situation, given the scale of this attack, israel will probably be asking for a lot of technical help, certain types of satellite, or other technical means that can help them respond militarily, to this attack. Again though, there is this question of, why this wasnt anticipated. The other thing you will, here and we are already hearing this in congress and elsewhere, with u. S. Officials. They were also be ready to provide israel certain munitions, certain ammunitions, which they will need as the conflict proceeds, and everyone sort of seems to be bracing for something that is not gonna be over soon. So, that could mean munitions for the iron dome, the Missile Defense system, for example, and some other very specific ammunition, that israel might be asking for, in the coming weeks. All right, dan chops thank you for both to starting off this. Our up, next were gonna get reaction from israels former ambassador to the United States, Michael Please stay. With us stay. With u because i switched to everyothermonth cabenuva. For adults who are undetectable, cabenuva is the only complete longacting Hiv Treatment you can get every other month. Its two injections from a healthcare provider. Now when i have people over, hiv pills arent on my mind. Dont receive cabenuva if youre allergic to its ingredients, or if youre taking certain medicines, which may interact with cabenuva. Serious side effects include allergic reactions, postinjection reactions, Liver Problems, and depression. If you have a rash and other allergic reaction symptoms, stop cabenuva and get medical help right away. 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Farxiga astrazeneca may be able to help. Heres why you should switch from chrome to duckduckgo. Duckduckgo is a browser you download to your mobile and desktop devices. Unlike chrome, the Duckduckgo Browser has privacy builtin. It comes with a private alternative to google search, which doesn■t spy on your searches, and it blocks cookies and creepy ads. And theres no catch. Its free. We make money from ads, but they dont follow you around. All right, welcome back when. Join the millions of people taking back their privacy by Downloading Duckduckgo On Mobile and desktop today. Israels ambassador to the United States, michael herzog, said in a statement earlier today, this is war, we will fight to win, and deter the terrorists from any future attacks. For more on israels response to todays attacks, is former israeli master to the nine states, michael. He was also a member of the israeli at their parliament. Ambassador thank you so much for making time for us tonight. Just to pick up, on the point that i was reading there, from the current ambassador, ambassador herzog, what will victory look like Going Forward . It will look like, the victory look, like a man, the restoration of peace and quiet, along our borders, and all of our borders, the return of our hostages, that have been taken. Punishing hamas, certainly, to a great extent, so that this can never happen again. That is what victory would look. Like it is it is not like declaring. Victory it will be a long, struggle and a painful struggle. But israel is determined to raise that struggle and determine the. When i know this has been extremely difficult day for israel, and certainly it is it still in the early stages, of assessing how Something Like this happened, and as someone who has served in his early, government and has served and are you shocked, are you surprised by the tactical capabilities of hamas, to pull Something Like this . Of i am surprised, i am not shocked. I think hamas has had a lot of help, from its iranian allies. And it has had it, for a long time. I am disappointed, that we were not able to predict this, in any serious way. We were caught off guard, and certainly when the smoke clears, when the smoke clears, there is going to be investigations. And israel, unlike many other countries ayman, no one is above responsibility. People will be held responsible, if it was found that there were serious intelligence, and tactical failures, in this operation. Why do you think israel was not able to predict this . You know, israels intelligence capabilities are among the best in the world, certainly the best in the region. But, why do you think that israel was not able to predict such an operation . I dont know. I dont know if anybody, knows right now. What we do know, is that we have millions of israelis sitting in bomb shelters, including my own family, my grandchildren. We have hundreds killed, thousands wounded, dozens held hostage. That is our real focus right now, it is not fingerpointing. There will be time enough, after this conflict ends. But right, now our focus is on returning our hostages, restoring safety to our families into our communities, in our neighborhoods. And, ensuring that hamas, or any other proxy of a, wrong never does this again. Can you share with, us since you brought up your family, can you share with us what their condition is right now . What is the latest on what they are hearing on the, ground instead, israel with the committees that at some point had been infiltrated, by hamas militants, and as we understand, parts of those committees have been taken over, and there were ongoing gun fights from Israeli Security forces, and hamas militants. Thats what i understand as well. From talking to my own children, migrant grandchildren, they are in bomb shelters, sirens are going off, over tel aviv. I live in southern tel aviv, so sirens are going off there, and there have been rockets fired, thousands of rockets fired at israel so far. And, school has been canceled, no ones going out, and we have been in the situation, before but rocket fire, we have never been in a situation like, this where there are still active terrorists, who are unaccounted for, who are apparently still operating within israeli territory, holding hostages, and our army has been a major. Oh my associates have been called up, and continuing to form, and we are preparing for what could very well be, a prolonged conflict. And, i am hardpressed to imagine that the head of hezbollah will sit quietly. I am far convinced convinced that hamas, in the west bank or even radical elements from within the israeli arab population. So, this could be a very prolonged conflict. And, for many of us, people who follow this conflict, very closely. And im not alone in this, it was predictable. My own feeling was that iran was very much frightened of the saudi israeli peace treaty, that is being discussed, very much right by the prospect of a nuclearized saudi arabia. Very much frightened by the prospect of return to donald trump, to the presidency. And was looking for an opportunity, to just destabilize. So i mean, israel is divided, deeply divided, political issues. But, the United States, not wanting to be untangled again in the middle eastern conflict, and iran saw an opportunity. In this, i think, was evident too many people, myself included, and we were braced for precisely this type of outbreak. So, i think you are using the word, a prolonged confrontation. Youve talked about the possibility of other fronts opening up, both internally and externally, in israel. I just want, you if i can, specifically ask you about iran. We know that iran has supported hamas. But, to what extent do you believe, or do you know of certainly, maybe from your time in office, that iran was directing, and perhaps tactically involved, in these types of attacks against israel . How much of this is iran backing hamas, and how much of this do you believe iran dictating, and courting hamass behavior . Excellent question. German timing government, i had the task, and i dont say it as of actually being in charge of the gaza situation. And, i learned and the mens amount about it, and found that well, hamas doesnt take its orders directly from tehran, it is greatly supported financially, and tactically by tehran. 95 of all the rockets being fired in israel today, i actually made in iran, smuggled into israel through gaza through the desert. The other 5 are engineered by iran, through the help of iranian trained palestinian terrorists in iran also has a wholly owned, and operated terrace group, known as islamic jihad, in gaza. That puts pressure on hamas, to undertake these type of operations, to vicious terrorist attacks. So, iran is deeply engaged, and iran, as far as i can see, has every interest in destabilizing the middle east, to prevent the signing of an agreement between saudi arabia, and israel. Or, to preempt a situation in washington which may not be to its liking. Let me ask you about the current israeli Prime Minister, for a moment, who has made it a mission of his to reverse the approach towards peace in the region. The israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, has boasted about how there is always this thinking, that if israel pursued peace first of the palestinians, and of the broader arab world, theyll be able to achieve. He made it a Central Point of his governing, or governance, i should say, government, to go out and make peace with the broader arab world, and then come back and try to make peace with the palestinians. Do you believe that calculation was a mistake . Now that we are seeing this type of attack, that ignoring the palestinian issue, not addressing the fundamental root causes of the Israeli Palestinian conflict, have led to this moment . Well keep in mind, that it wasnt just Benjamin Netanyahu made that conclusion. It was also the arab leaders, who made that conclusion, that they werent going to wait around for the palestinians to agree to a peaceful offer, because the palestinians, the Worlds Record for being offered peace but being turned down. An hour, were back to ancient history, but it is 1930, seven 1947, 2000, 2001, 2008, they were all for a twostate solution, and turn it down. And it was violence, and arab leaders said enough was enough, we want to move ahead and develop our countries to take advantage of his really technology, and open the region in that way. So, it wasnt just Benjamin Netanyahu, and i think its a large, large segment of the israeli population. You know, i am not in government anymore, i dont have to represent anybody, but i will tell you that a large majority of his release, would like to see some type of progress towards peace with the palestinians. But, precisely this type of this is attack, by hamas, shows israelis that if we ever reached say, a Two State Solution, we are the palestinians were in charge of the state on the west bank, and it would fall to hamas within days. We have a Palestinian Leader who is on the 18th year of his fouryear term, he wont stand for reelection, because he knows hamas would win. So, he had a palestinian it becomes the same type of situation, hamas stands with cooperation, to have the situation in gaza. It is existential for the state of israel. I mention, i live in south tel aviv, i see those areas, i see the outskirts of from my rear window. We were not within we were in rifle range. And so, the drivers are actually to be more deeply convinced, that that type of progress toward, that type of solution, which is not going to be a solution, it could be our disillusion, is not in israels interest. I do have a belief. This is a last point, that by making peace with arab nations, i hope with saudi arabia soon, it will create an environment, the conditions, in which progress toward some type of a solution, our least a better management of our conflict, with the palestinians, could be achieved. Let me ask you finally, just about the return to status quo. I mean, the comparisons that have made fun of the day, is that this is israels 9 11, not just on the side of the intelligence failure, but on the fact that everything Going Forward from here on out, in israel, will not be the same. Obviously, fundamental to that is the relationship that your country has with the palestinians, the ongoing occupation in the west bank, and those conditions. Some have said, that the situation there is part of the reason why there is this ongoing conflict, and if you dont resolve, that you will never have a final peace agreement, in the broader arab world. Do you share that assessment . You have is really members of the, government and certainly members of the coalition, calling for annexation of the west bank, and some say, completely going against an invading and recreating another like 1948. Hummus, is not interested in a twostep solution, it is not just in peace. Hamas determined to destroy the state of israel, to kill every one of, us to kill our families. These the people who drag siblings out of their cars today, and shot them on the road. These are not people seeking peace, this is a vicious, medieval, terrorist organization. And, you could make a Two State Solution tomorrow, and it wouldnt in any way impact hamas, it would probably actually go to hamas quickly. I have been around an awful long time, i was an adviser to the biden administration, 30 years ago, and we signed the oslo cords. Hamas let launched a series of terrorist attacks, and killed many many israelis, including a close member of my own family, it is the Peace Efforts to actually bring out of the terror. I think once, again we are seeing a peace ever between saudi arabia, has brought out this terror. Now that, along with other internal factors and. Gaza keep in mind hamas has its own internal politics, and we have been following very closely the rising opposition to hamas oppression, within the gaza strip. This could be a response from that as well. To but the point being is, apples and oranges. It would be great to be able to make some type of progress, for peace to the palestinians. Anybody who thinks that that peace process, could have a diverted what happened today, what is happening right now, is deluding themselves. All right, former israeli massive United States, michael thank you so much free time, i greatly appreciate it. Thank you. Coming up, some new reporting on how the u. S. Plans to respond to the attack against israel, stay with. Us el, stay with. Us with mr. Clean clean freak, conquering messes is that easy. Clean freaks mist is three times more powerful, and it works on contact. Clean freak, just freak, wipe, done. Tourists tourists that turn into scientists. Tourists taking photos that are analyzed by ai. So researchers can help life underwater flourish. Family is just very important. Shes my sister and, we depend on each other a lot. Shes the rock of the family. Shes the person who holds everything together. Its a battle, you know im going to be there. Keytruda and chemotherapy meant treating my cancer with two different types of medicine. In a clinical trial, keytruda and chemotherapy was proven to help people live longer than chemotherapy alone. 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Tell your doctor about all your medical conditions, including Immune System problems, if youve had or plan to have an organ or stem cell transplant, received chest radiation, or have a nervous system problem. It feels good to be here for them. Living longer is possible. Its tru. Keytruda from merck. Ask your doctor about keytruda. He hits his mark center stage and is crushed by a baby grand piano. Youre replacing me . Customize and save with liberty bibberty. He doesnt even have a mustache. Only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. In this moment of tragedy, i want to say to them, and into the world, and to terrorists everywhere, the United States stands with israel. We will not ever fail to have their back we. Well make sure that they have the help there citizens need, and they can continue to defend themselves. All right, so President Biden there, flagged by secretary of state Anthony Blinken earlier today, making clear that the u. S. Is working with close contact with the israeli government, as the crisis continues to unfold. Join me now are former jet under president obama, and former director of communications, and Spokes Person at the u. S. Mission at the united nations. Also under present obama, its great to have both of you with us. Joel, i will start with you. First of all, you heard, perhaps in my previous segment here, the former israeli ambassador, michael oren, talking about this pivotal moment, in israel. Just give me your sense of, where the situation goes from, here and whether or not it fundamentally changes, or upends the dynamics in the region. Amen, its great to be with you. I and i will tell you, without a doubt, this is a different moment, without a doubt every family in israel right now is touched by, this has been devastated by this. They are still in fear, in fear of the ability to walk out into the street, children not being able to go to school, not being able to go shop, cousins being called up, cousins of mine being called up to serve. And so this is a moment with israel that they hadnt experience in decades, and what this is going to do is mobilize all of israeli society. There is now a significant around for whatever action regarding hamas and gaza. And so, were going to be looking, and i think everybody is sensing, we want to be looking at a very devastating assault on gaza, in the coming days, but first and foremost of course, the israelis are as the ambassador mentioned, very concerned about those hostages, those who were stolen from their homes, from social events, taken into gaza. And, so it is a very complicated effort as well, but every Single Family in his your right now, is devastated, and living in fear. The language that was used by the former ambassador was prolonged. You are saying the situation, on what israel might want, would be devastating. What does that look, like specifically . I mean, you certainly know from your time in government, we have been in this room before, not in this. We have been in this road, where is phyllis cared operations, war is inside gaza. They have gone after hamas, the senior leaders. They have carried out ground incursions, ground innovations. What is going to fundamentally change this time, militarily, if israel, as you say, does in fact exact heavy Military Prices . You know ayman, there are a couple of data points that stick out. I was in the Obama Ministration during the 2014 war, and at that time, about 5000 rockets were sent into israel, over about 50 days. And now, that many were spent in the in the span of 24 hours. So the devastation, the frequency, and the speed has accelerated, significantly. And, my fear is that we are also going to see a similar kind of dynamic, coming from israel, and that is going to be something that potentially, we could see a reoccupation of certain parts of gaza. Israel has not wanted to occupy gaza since it left, when evacuated 2005, the israelis dont want to be in gaza. And in fact, they asked the palestinians to govern gaza, and then hamas has been a spoiler. Remember, hamas knocked out the palestinian authority, has killed thousands, killed palestinians, took over power there, and has launched a tax ever since. And so i fear that what we are going to see is more devastation, and potentially a reoccupation of parts of gaza, which, again we lead to extend everyone injuries in bloodshed, and maple other actors in. And that is really the real risk here, of this continues to evolve. How about the situation that happened today. The words that some have used, unprovoked, but that kind of defies what the reality is on the ground. When you see the conditions that have been taking place, in the occupied west bank, in east jerusalem, and in around the gaza strip over the past several not just year, but years. It is hard to look at this and say this happened in a vacuum. Right, its important to look at the factors that lead up to this. And so In Particular, as you noted, four years youve had really high tensions, you have absolutely had violence between hamas and israel. Of course, this is unprecedented. But, this has come up very often, particularly around holidays and such. But, tensions have been running especially high, since last december, after Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu came into office, and put together a quote, to quote President Biden, in extreme cabinet. And, that cabinet is extreme, and they have taken a very hardline, very tough, very provocative policies, when it comes to things like pursuing raids in the west bank, and killing palestinians, most of whom have been militants, but also civilians by the way. Personally rates at. Allowing jews to pray, at mosque, and violence that has happened, there especially during holidays. And also, the expansion of settlements, that have been expanded much further than i think we in the u. S. Government, that we thought would happen. And so, measures like that have created this foundation, for fueling this tension, for Making Tensions very high. Now all that said, none of that justifies the behavior on the part of hamas. But the question here, that is very important, is that people need to start to wonder, to question, whether or not the policies of the netanyahu administration, ultimately endanger israeli citizens, because of that. So, i brought in that question now to you, to you joel. And that is, do the policies need to change . Not just for the israeli government, not just of what has happened inside the west bank. But, across the region, since the status quo is not producing a desired outcome, do we need to have a paradigm shift, in terms of how we are looking at the Israeli Palestinian conflict . Yeah , without a doubt, the reality is that what we have been doing, we the collective we, has failed. I had a conversation today with a close friend in washington, and we were talking about this. And just thinking, this is not working, what has been happening, where the capital is pursuing is clearly feeling, from American National security perspective, average right now has hit a dead end. And so, the question now, and to your point, the answer is without a doubt, a deeper engagement on the palestinian issue, regarding peacemaking, must take place, that agreements solely with individual countries, for example, while crucial, are not the answer alone, to the conflict. All that said, two and i will just reinforce this, this was an unprovoked assault, this was a terrorist attack, it is an ongoing terrorist attack. Hamas is no friend of the palestinian people, with the kind of held that there were to bring on to the palestinians in gaza. The way they have treated the palestinian authority, in killing and kicking out authority in gaza. Without a doubt, hamas is the primary culprit, of the violence right. Now but i will say it again, we have got to figure out a different approach to dealing with the palestinian issue, it has to go broader, it is failed up to this point. And without a doubt, we are going to see more cycling, more violence, and i hope, and the religious cousin of mine said, we hope that maybe this will bring a different approach, and a different way forward, because these devastating moments, really are ones where we should look inward, and try to decide, can we do things differently . But right now, i am very concerned, about how much more violence were going to see, in the days. All right joel please stay with. Were Gonna Squeeze in a quick break, and his conversation with you on the other, side just a. With us with u especially for those sudden gush moments. When your keys are in the door and your bodys like, its happening if youre worried about your protection, its not the right protection. Always discreet protects like no other. With double leak guards that help prevent gushes escaping from the sides. And a rapid dry core that locks in your heaviest gush quickly for up to zero leaks. And it contours, to everybody. Now this, is protection Always Discreet the protection we deserve known as a passionate artist. Known for loving the outdoors. Known for getting everyone together. No one wants to be known for cancer, but a treatment can be. Keytruda is known to treat cancer. Fdaapproved for 16 types of cancer, including certain earlystage cancers. 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It is not just an intelligence failure, that we are looking with today. This is a criminal nation of a diplomatic and political failure, that goes back years. Of course. I mean, it goes back decades. You know ayman, im sure you remember, there was a time period 20 years ago, only maybe 30 years ago, where middle eastern, my counterparts in the middle east, when i work in the u. S. Government, used to say that in order to solve all of the province of the middle east, that you just needed to solve the Israeli Palestinian conflict. And i genuinely believe that, at that time. Now, this is before the arab spring, and this was before iran was as entrenched in its support for terrorism as it is now. But, things have changed since, and of course. But that said, it has fallen, to the wayside. And i was at the white house from 2010 until the end of 2012, and i remember very well when the Obama Administration pushed very hard, to achieve some kind of peace, steel and negotiate, and it fell apart. And to be honest with you, since then, it doesnt really feel like there has ever really been a very serious, concerted effort. And there are many reasons for it. And, it falls on both sides. It is the palestinians, the Palestinian Leadership is weak, it is corrupt it is feckless, and by the way it doesnt have control over hamas anyway. And, the israeli leadership, certainly the majority of that time period, has been under netanyahu. , and has been under extremely, difficult and extremely and obviously, it pushes policies that are extremely hardline, tough, and provocative. And so, the u. S. Is always kind of caught in the middle. And so, it has been a very difficult, top complicated issue. I think that the value you see, in the deals that have been made with the gulf, is that on one hand, you see different incentives, leading those deals. And so, a lot of it has been security cooperation, or economic incentives, trade, technology, things of that kind. And, that is a lesson, to deploy for future negotiations with the palestinians. I think that the saudis say, that the reason a deal hasnt been made yet between them and israel, is because they want to see improvement on the palestinian front. Now, i think that is going to be, those talks will be postponed. But that, and thats also valuable, to have leaders in the gulf, and saudi arabia is the hegemon of the middle east, really, if were going to be honest. I think it is valuable for them, to push that agenda. So, i think that, with all of this said. Yes, it has not been prioritized, it needs to be prioritized. But, at the same time, there have been all of these reasons, why it has been so difficult to achieve it. And, why the attention has moved elsewhere. Joel, final thoughts to you, very quickly, though i apologize i, know this can go on for a while. But, with this escalation, with this particular chapter, is this the end of the Two State Solution . You have rightwing israeli ministers, calling for the annexation of the west bank, even before this happened. And, you have today, members have the parliamentary bloc that is leading this government, calling for, castro to be carried out. We already see the israeli government, cutting off electricity, announcing theyre not going to deliver anymore goods or supplies into the besieged territory, it is a situation that is only going to get more dire, and worse. Yeah, there is no Military Solution to this conflict. Lets put that on the table, full stop, no Military Solution to this conflict. And, the only practical one is a Two State Solution. And, regardless of how this unfolds, and it will be a very, hard in the coming days, and there will be devastation. There would still, only be one way to ensure security in the long, run for the palestinians and israelis. And that is the peace agreement, based upon two states for two peoples. Getting their, though is further apart and further right now, than it ever has been. But those alternatives that you described, are not solutions, they are commitments to future future terrorism, and devastation. And they are commitments to future war. And so, that is the big picture, nobody has ever offered of a Military Solution to this, because that is just absolutely in feasible, and inhumane. And, as we all know, just not going to ever bring peace to these people, who deserve peace, in this region of the world. All right joel reuben, thank you to both of you, greatly appreciate. Up next, were gonna take a wider look at the implications this attack could have, on the region, stay with us. 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Breztri may increase your risk of thrush, pneumonia, and osteoporosis. Call your doctor if worsened breathing, chest pain, mouth or tongue swelling, problems urinating, vision changes, or eye pain occur. Cant afford your medication . Astrazeneca may be able to help. Ask your doctor about breztri. When we can certainly make all of the difference, just eight days ago, National Security adviser jake sullivan, spoke at the atlantic festival, lift listing off a number of positive elements in the middle east. Claiming, quote, the region is quieter today than it has been in two decades. Well, todays attack changes that prognosis, drastically, i would say. Im joined now by the Senior Fellow for middle east studies, at the council on foreign relations, and Lauren Whitney the editor for access, it is good to have both of you with. Us ray, i think maybe the central question everyone is asking, to what extent iran may have been involved in this, both tactically and perhaps even with the capability, is that it has given hamas, over the past several years, as being his major financier, and back. Are you or someone you watch this very closely, what is your reading of how much of a fingerprint iran has in this attack . This remains difficult to ascertain, at this point. Well we do know is that in the past year, and certainly the past several months, the [inaudible] the rhetoric of the has we are now seeing. So, and then of course, there are is the relationship with iran and hamas, that has been suggested at, least that hamas is sending millions of dollars in assistance, and potential missiles and. And i think that iranians probably had for knowledge of this attack, but i am not quite sure if the order, i think hamas is the and this is some you are starting. To that has, but nevertheless, i think they have been supportive of this measure. They probably knew was coming, and they have, as you mentioned supporters of starting with lauren, you know we, have been having this discussion against the backdrop of what will everyone was expecting to be this historic breakthrough, a saudi israel peace deal, that would have changed the region. The former israeli ambassador to the u. S. , michael oren, believe that that was a motivating factor, in hamas carrying out this attack, to try to change that dynamic. Give me your thoughts on whether or not you see it that way, that hamas will be interested in sabotaging that. They havent done something that with the abraham accords, but why would they do that now, potentially with saudi arabia. And to, is this enough to derail the situation . What are the demands, as we understand, from the saudis, for a comprehensive peace deal with israel. Was there, for israel to make some kind of gesture or to offer something towards Palestinian Statehood . It is unlikely that israel would do that, given the current climate. Yeah, absolutely. In terms of what those talks, they certainly will be postponed. Whether or not they end, i think remains to be seen, its going to be very very hard for the saudis, In Particular, under pressure from much of the arab world, that doesnt have relations with israel, as well as other muslim majority countries, to enter into a deal with israel, and not give anything for the palestinians. So, that is certainly something that, washington In Particular will also be concerned about, because there was some movement in gaining for this, quote unquote, mega deal with saudi. And, in terms of whether it was a motivating factor, for hamas. I mean, they said as much, in, part of their statements, that were coming out today. Whether it was the motivating. Paak factor, i am not so sure. I think occupation itself, probably was likely the big motivating factor. But that being said, they themselves, sort of warned against these normalization agreement, that we have seen over the last few years. And, it certainly, it is going to have an impact on the saudi u. S. Talks that have been going on. Ray, your thoughts on the psychological factor in this. I mean, i think for those of us who study history, and the comparison to 1973, it was that element of surprise in the Egypt Syria Track against israel. It changed that an image of the middle east for years, certainly the soil audi change its top in that war. How just today, how does this surprise attack change israels psychology, about its deterrence capabilities, but also how it is perceived by its adversaries . Well first of all, this is a failure, in terms of intelligence. By the way, also of american intelligence. Its really had access to communications in hamas, as to americans and others, and there is an ability to present this attack, it will be. Only studied they will have the death in how we, the difference between this isnt is in a barkan a war in 1973, and very successful in this is not part of hamas is this event it seems to destruct as was indicated by the last few years. So, this is very much an effort to prevent, and a piece of it remains to be seen, so much of this depends on how the situation has a of road and in this situation. This particular episode at this corner, at least we have not seen for the with the. And so am afraid. All right, lauren, whitney, thank you to the both of you, please stick around, we have more breaking news, at the top of the hour, as we continue our extended coverage. Extended coverage. I learned i can stay undetectable with fewer medicines. Thats why i switched to dovato. Dovato is a complete Hiv Treatment for some adults. 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