Who investigated President Bidens mishandling of classified documents, a man named robert hur is grilled by House Members on the capitol. Concluding nothing President Biden did was worthy of prosecution, but that did not stop republicans in congress from making a fourhour circus out of mr. Hurs testimony today. Thats because todays hearing wasnt actually about matters of law. It was about scoring political points. The only reason Joe Biden Accidently taking classified documents with him when he left office, and the only reason that matters at all is because donald trump woefully, willfully, purposely took documents with him when he left office and then tried to obstruct justice to cover it o all up. These two cases are not the same, but just dont take my word for that. Here is Special Counsel hur reading from his own rt on the matter. Unlike the evidence involving mr. Biden, the allegations set forth in the indictment of mr. Trump if proven would present serious aligating facts. Keep going. Ctcongresswoman, im happy t let you c read the words of of report. Well, its your report so i think its more fitting you read those. Most notably after being asked to return documents and avoid prosecution mr. Trump did the opposite. He also obstructed justice. Well get into hurs apparent reluctance there to read the negative parts about donald trump o even if they were partse wrote. But congresswoman Madeleine Dean in the exchange forced mr. Hur to highlight the most important conclusion in this whole thing. In one case bidens you have what seems to be a legitimate mistake followed with full cooperation with law enforcement. And the other, trumps, you have what appears to be criminal the intent of obstruction of justice. And as to illustrate the chasm yesterday we got even more evidence just how intentionally criminal Donald Trumps actions appear to be. The witnesses f in the classified documents investigation, one of the witnesses came veforward. And up until yesterday we knew this witness only as Trump Employee 5. Cnn is now reporting that his name is brian butler. He was a longtime employee at maralago, and he witnessed some incredibly damning things like the day that trump flew from florida to bedminster, new jersey. Trumps body man and his codefendant, walt nauta, asked mr. Butler to get nauta a big suv, an escalade. Butler then saw nauta and trumps codefendant, Carlos Deolive yra load them up and load those boxes onto the plane. Mr. Butler said that all took place on june 3, 2022. Later that same day one of trumps lawyers provided investigators with what he said was the entirety of classified documents that remain o in mr. Trumps possession as well as a sworn certification that falsely claimed on trumps behalf that he and team trump had conducted a diligent search of boxes and all responsive documents had been turned over. What brian butler is now asserting here is pretty explosive. Not only did trump apparently hideaway at least 105 classified documents the fbi eventually found, it sure sounds like trump managed to steal another 10 to 15 boxes of records, and we donts, know if the fbi ever go those records back. Who knows where those boxes are now. That sure sounds like obstruction of justice. What is equally concerning here is why brian butler decided to go public right now. Here he was explaining his decision. Well, i mean, its been almost a year since fbi agents showed up at my house when my wife was at home, and, you know, over the course of the last year emotionally its been a roller coaster. A couple of weeks ago judge cannon said shes going to release the names of the witnesses. You know, you go from highs and lows in this. And instead of just waiting for it to just come out, i think its better that i get to at least say what happened than it coming out in the news, people calling anyone crazy. Id rather just get it out there andt the hope is at least i ca move on with my life and get over this. Brian butler coming forward with this is brave. President trump has a tracks record of trying to influence or intimidate witnesses who speak out against him, and his followers have a track record of harassingec and threatening anye they perceive to be one of Donald Trumps enemies. So coming out in this Big Public Way is in itself a big deal. As the months go on, the list of trumps transgressions, if not the list of his actual crimes, those lists continue to grow. And yet for now the maralago classified documents case is on hold. Andis instead of talking about trial in congress, the focus is instead on President Biden and not just howd he handled classified documents, which as a legal matter is already settled, instead the focus is on bidens age and whether hes fit to be president. The former Special Counsel himself played a huge role in that. The report made broad and seemingly unusual characterizations about bidens age. And now one of the people one of the Congress People who questioned hur today was congressman adam schiff. Remember that before becoming a congressman, schiff spent years as the assistant u. S. Attorney for the Central District of california,e meaning hes no stranger to how a prosecution like this shouldby run. He knows the rules, and he does not think the former Special Counsel has followed them. Politics played no part whatsoever in my investigative steps. You understood nevertheless mr. Hur, you cannot tell me youre so naive as to not think your words wouldnt create a political firestorm. You understood how they would be manipulated by my colleagues here on the gop side of the aisle and former President Trump, did you tot . Congressman, i understood the regulations of the Special Counsel. A confidential report by the Attorney General mr. Hur, what is in the rules what is in the rules you dont gratuitously do things to prejudice a subject of an investigation when youre declining to prosecute. You dont gratuitously add language you know will be useful in a Political Campaign. You were not born yesterday. You made a choice. It was a political choice. It was the wrong choice. Mr. Chairman, i yield back. Joining me now is congressman adam shif of california. Congressman schiff, its great to see you. You i think made a lot of made an impact today shall we say in your questioning of the former Special Counsel, and i just wonder what your assessment was after you asked him i think quite credibly whether he actually believed this was not a political document or he did not make any Political Considerations when assessing President Bidens memory. Did you believe him . Be no, i didnt believe him a all. You know, he tried to claim this was a confidential memo, but he was also forced to acknowledge he knew it would be made public, the Attorney General made it clear it would be made public. And the idea that he was required to give either this personalized, prejudicial bias and broadside to the president though it wasnt necessary in his report is absurd. He could have commented all he wanted as the president s recollectionhe as to this documt or that document. That would have been appropriate. But heav understands having don dozens and dozens of depositions witnesses are expected if they dont remember something clearly they should i dont recall. To make this Political Puck shot at the president during a midst of a Political Campaign when he knows how it would be used, a graveit abuse of prosecutorial authority, and he knows it. I also feel he wanted to issue a backhanded not quite indictment of the president. He refused he got into a big back and forth with congresswoman jamilla jayapal. Why did he refuse to exonerate him . I think you saw in the clip you played his reluctance to even read portions of of his report critical of donald trump. My sense was what he decided to do was lacking the evidence to make a recommendation to charges the president , he would do the next best thing, which is give them a political bludgeon, attack the president s memory, paint an unflattering portrait of him. That in many ways was more damaging than any observation he might have made about the facts or the chargeability of those facts. And so i think he has a tough time criticizing trump. He doesnt want to alienate someone who might be president , doesnt want to alienate the republican party, and i think this is his effort failing to find facts to charge or recommend charges to gratify the trump crowd. What do you make of the fundamental issue on display here or the fundamental conclusion that i think is worth repeating over and over again, the vast, vast gulf that separates what president g bide did versus what former President Trump did on the matter of Classified Document Retention . Do you think democrats made a forceful enough distinction, as it were, given all that republicans had stored up, the political bludgeon, as you call it, to try to muddy the waters, try to impugn President Bidens reputation, his age, and his fitness for office . I think, yes. Madeleine i think did a great job. Ted lou also went through, itemized a number of the charges against donald trump, the actions of trump, and concealing materials and trying to get people to lie about it. And talking about scrubbing the server that had Surveillance Footage on it. In all theseerments just Night And Day with President Bidens not deliberate effort to retain documents with his full cooperation with his lengthy interviews. It was a sharp contrast. I think democrats made that contrast. I also think its not some neutral, objective nonpartisan prosecutor. This is n someone who was a republican appointee who really found it difficult even though as you say it was his own words to read from his report in ways that would be critical of donald trump. And so i think the public got a sense of who he is, wheres hes coming from, that this is not a arbiter. Independent what republicans and former Special Counsel robert hur has to say about it, i do wonder how much of an impactw thats going to have wh the American Public as tee wed into p an election season wheree may not get of the federal criminal trials, they may not happen before the election. We have a witness coming forward andwi saying not only did donal trump retain boxes at his residence, he may have obtained 10 to 15 boxes more and sent them to points north or whatever. Do you think that had the impact it necessarily should, or there were some false equivalents made between bidenui taking things despite the fact it wasnt criminal, and what trump did. Do you think the trance gegzs of that case have lost the impact in the court of Public Opinion . I dont think they lost the impact, but as for the indictments some time ago i think its valuable to remind people of the itegregious facts. And i think mr. Butler coming forward particularly as you say given that the trial doesnt look like its going to go forward before the election to say, hey, the president was involved in hiding these classified materials. I was asked in a strange, suspicious way to help load these boxes of documents on the same day it turns out the president s lawyers are meeting with the Justice Department to go over these classified materials. Lord knows what happened today all these documents or some of these documents. I thought mr. Butlers statements also about having this billionaire foreign person talking about russian and other submarine capabilities or u. S. Capabilities, the Aastonishment Thates the president would talk to, you know, some wealthy and i dont know if this is a donor or just wealthy patron at maralago, shows you what a National Security risk that whole maralago enterprise was. Donald trumps willingness to discuss, Show Photographs and things to different partiesot tt were potentially classified materials. You know, its terrifying to think of him getting classified briefings now, and i really hope the agencies dumb down so they dont share anything with the president they dont want shared with the world. Yeah, only material published in the Washington Post and the new york times. That he probably wont read either. Congressman adam schiff, thank you for making the time tonight. Really appreciate it. Thank you. We have a lot to get to this evening including what a doctored photo of The Royal Family means for american politics. Plus, potential president ial spoiler. Rfk jr. Announced his short list for running mate includes, surprise, a very prominent antivaxxer. What that could mean for november coming up. Xer. What that could mean for november coming up and there was one time he said, well, were all dirty, we all move boxes. And i said, look, i didnt even remember what i was moving until i was a at the plane and thats why i remember moving boxes. Were all dirty, we all move boxes. Not you, not me. Unless theyre empty amazon boxes. The man speaking there is butler, a long maralago employee who quit three months. He was referenced in the criminal indictment as Trump Employee number 5. While nbc news has not independently confirmed mr. Butlers role here, the fact he has come forward now is telling. Any day now the judge in this case, aileen cannon, may released the identities of unnamed potential witnesses like witness number 5, which puts at least a dozen others like mr. Butler at risk. Judge cannon has yet to rule on whether shell release the names of those witnesses for the prosecution. She held a hearing 11 days ago on the matter, and as far as that trial date, that is still very much tbd. Joining me now to discuss all this is msnbc legal analyst lisa rubin. Its so wonderful to have you on set here to explain my continued confusion about what exactly is happening down in florida. And other legal scholars. Whats cannon going to do here . I mean this seems like a very bad call just on its face, witnesses should be protected especially if the president has a history. Cannon clearly still has a leaning toward revealing their names. And she actually asked David Harbaugh of the Special Counsels office verbatim has there been any evidence these witnesses have been threatened, and his response was sort of incredulous, and he said to her, well, thats not the standard, your honor. We dont have to show a witness has been threatened in order to make a credible case to you that the revelation of their names would compromise the investigation as well as their Public Safety . Do you feel if see says no jack smith takes this to the 11th circuit . I do. Jack smith does take it to the 11th circuit because there are 20 to 25 other witnesses according to har baughs estimation that could be impacted, and its not just their identities wrn y. To be clear to you and our viewers. Its about the substance of their testimony as well. There could be communications between members of the Prosecution Team between and among them about some of these witnesses. And some of them are incidental. Lets say theyre talking about lisa rubin, a witness, and lower down in the chain theyre talking about alex wagner. You could end up having alex wagners name out in the domain even though its entirely incidental for the purpose in which the hibits were used in these underlying motions. That is the subject of this unsealing order. I do wonder when we talk about the most explosive elements of this interview with mr. Butler, i was shocked of his account of helping to load 10 to 15 Bankers Boxes, Bankers Boxes he said looked very much like the boxes storing classified documents weve seen photos of in the document. That those 10 to 15 boxes were loaded onto a plane and took off. To me, i find the Special Counsel first of all, they knew this months ago. Why not continue looking for them . What does that reflect on the part of jack smith . First of all, we dont know that they havent recovered them. It could be they have determined all of those boxes were returned to maralago or somewhere else, that they essentially follow trump around wherever he went. I had a conversation with someone on your team tonight about our shared recollection that when trump showed up in new york last year for a deposition in a new York Attorney general civil fraud case, he was seen outside trump tower with personal aides carting those very same sorts of Bankers Boxes. Look, there is a reference in the indictment to the fact that Carlos De Olliva and others shuttled those boxes to maralago. In the back of my mind this is all pure speculation, i should warn everyone at home. That it seems jack smith probably more than anyone else at the Department Of Justice has Noods The Aprieveiated calender within which hes working. Like he built a federal indictment on january 6th made for speed, lets get it done. That is very much up in the air. The maralago classified documents case seems very narrow, very clear. He didnt bother with the dissemination charge, for example, saying trump was trying to spread state secrets. He can use some of this as the intent of proof at trial. Jack smith to your point i think has adopted a surgical approach. Hes also determined based on his teams experience with judge cannon so far, further superseding the indictment is not to the trumps benefit. We wouldnt see some of the things come back and make a reappearance At Trial Incluldsing his testimony. I do think theres been a fatalest attitude about this. Theres a 50 chance joe biden is president of the United States come the end of november, which means this trial could actually happen. I do wonder what you think the time line might be for this given cannons seeming indecision to actually set a date. Look, i think a lot depends on what the Supreme Court does on president ial immunity. Trump has made multiple motions to dismiss in this case two of which will be dealt with later this week. But president ial immunity is not one of them. And depending on what the Supreme Court does, this case could go away or it could come back to judge cannon to determine even if he is immune for facts alleged to be official, does the stuff in this Indictment Count as acts for official immunity . I will tell you no. They are post president ial acts, they dont qualify. Donald trump on the other hand is saying because they emanate from his lawful possession during his presidency hes very comfortable to cloak himself into the bathroom of immunity. Does that mean he can go into the white house any time, steal a bunch of stuff i mean im not going to ask you to actually answer that, but that seems to be an argument to trumps merit. I appreciate you as always. Still to come this evening, why a badly, badly photoshopped portrait of British Royals has implications for american politics. Well explain coming up. N politics well explain coming up. Plus trump and biden cross a crucial president ial Campaign Milestone tonight. That is about the only thing their campaigns have in common, though. Well have more on their respective strategies coming up next. Their respective strategies coming up next in a few hours when all the votes are tallied in the Washington State primary donald trump is set to become the Presumptive Republican president ial nominee. And thanks to a primary win in georgia, joe biden is now the Presumptive Democratic nominee. So here we go General Election. President biden was not waiting to secure a certain number of delegates in order to shift into General Election mode. He released this ad over the weekend going after donald trump and taking on the age question head on. Look, im not a young guy. Thats no secret. But heres the deal. I understand how to get things done for the american people. I led the country through the covid crisis. Today we have the strongest economy in the world. I passed a law that lowers Prescription Drug prices, cap is it on 35 a month proceduresch for four years donald trump tried to pass an infrastructure law, and he failed. I got it done. So President Biden is running on the stuff hes done. And donald trump well, hes Firing Dozens of people at the Republican National committee including its political director, as his Campaign Takes operational control of that organization. And trump is calling into National Television programs and floating ideas like this. Have you changed your outlook how to handle entitlements, Social Security, medicare, medicaid . There is a lot you can do in terms of entitlements, in terms of cutting. Trump followed that up by announcing that his first act of president will be to close the border, drill baby drill, and free the January 6th Hostages. Okay now. Joining me now is tim miller, writer at large at the bulwark, and claire mccaskill, former u. S. Senator in the state of missouri. Thank you both for being with me here tonight to understand what is happening. Claire, let me first just ask you, you could talk about the infrastructure bill, you could talk about climate change, you could talk about lowering the cost of very common medications, you could talk about protecting the social safety net, or you could talk about freeing the January 6th Hostages and tiring the political director of the rnc. Which strategy would you take, claire . I kind of like our side of the fence here. I think bidens got a stronger hand, and by the way lets dont leave out the fact what donald trump mostly does is talk about how america sucks. He is constantly trying to convince everyone that were terrible, that were in decline, that america is awful. And i dont think thats what most americans believe or frankly want to hear. I think they want somebody who believes in the goodness of our country, somebody who sees that we are, in fact, in a Stronger Economic position than any of our other developed nations across the globe, that we are doing better than we were under donald trump. And i actually think that even though there are still lots of days left before the election, id much rather be joe biden at this point than donald trump. I think he does have the stronger hand. Tim, we are told repeatedly, largely by trump surrogates that the Trump Campaign is a well oiled machine, better run and managed than it was in 2016. It was a low bar in 2016 admittedly, but they did secure a bunch of endorsements, do seem to have more of an official campaign apparatus. Having said that, the nationalization of this campaign and Theict Fathat almost all of its appeal rests on the shoulders of donald trump, when hes out there saying things like im going to cut Social Security and medicare and talking glowingly about January 6th Hostages, i just do wonder how much the Campaign Stuff and the adeptness of his campaign actually matters if the principal is saying that kind of stuff. I do think its fair to say hes got some professionals around him right now that must be a little bit better than 2016 where he had several Campaign Managers and i think most of them were indicted at one point or the other including Paul Manafort who was kind of a russian spy or at least Back Channelling to russia during the 2016 campaign. Pretty low bar for improvement getting people around him. I think theyve stepped over that, but a lot of other things going against them they didnt have in 2016. Donald trump hadnt been indicted 91 times, didnt have a track record to compare against. It addressed both accomplishments but also it addresses the age contrast in a way, right . Oh, youre worried im too old, this other guy, this other old guy by the way said he was going to do infrastructure every week, and look who did it. I did. I think having a marginally Better Campaign team, i dont know if that off sets all the other challenges donald trump faces this team. I agree with you, tim. And i wonder what you thought in that ad it shows when biden talks about his ability to get infrastructure passed you see a faumbling image of which is actually tonally different than what weve seen so far. Weve seen him as a Pernicious Evildoer but bumbling and ineffective is a new bucket, and i wonder how useful you think that will be as biden tries to kind of claim a counter narrative in the trump years. All you have to do is play donald trump at some of these rallies when he goes onto these sentences that arent sentences and talks gibberish and doesnt know who hes running against and doesnt identify leaders with the right countries and in the middle of it all he loses his Train Of Thought and kind of goes sideways. He clearly has some cognitive issues. And i think the best thing that happened in the Biden Campaign they figured out theyve got to go after donald trump. They cant just sit in the oval office and be president ial and talk about bidennomics and talk about what hes gotten done. They have to go after donald trump. Theyre doing that now. And by the way, donald trump is helping them by going on a show where hes trying to appeal to donors and saying hes willing to cut Social Security and medicare. These are mistakes that Campaign Operatives cant fix. Yeah, you know, to that end, tim, youre bulwark buddy, sarah longwell, is the head of the republican accountability project, and the reporting is that they are going to spend 50 million in a campaign effectively against trump. They do not consider themselves a probiden shop as im sure youre well aware, but its going to feature maam made videos of america who voted for trump i believe in the past whether 2016 or 2020 but chosen not to in 2024. How effective do you think that will be in moving the sort of critical slice of independent swing voters to the left side of the aisle . How effective will that be . Look, i think sarah to defend her honor as probiden i think is the strategy here is talking to people that might not want to get there around biden. I dont get that, it doesnt make sense to me, but i think this is important. When you look at a strategy a lot of democratic groups out there in pacs trying to activate young voters or black voters or part of the coalition. This is an effort to reach people pretty much republican voters, that voted for donald trump, not even like never trumpers. Theyre trump voters. And moving some of them from going from a trump voter to a nothing, thats a step in the right direction, right . Thats a plus one for joe biden. Moving him to joe biden, thats a full flip. Thats what youre trying to do, right . In order to do that these testimonials are hearing from them. Hearing from claire, hearing from me even, someone voted for hillary is not going to be as compelling. Someone that looks like them, sounds like them, they voted for donald trump, and explaining for whatever reason whether it be january 6th, whether his behavior since then, his Change Of Heart on the economy or covid, they cant get around this time. And weve seen in testing that is a way to move some of this critical its a small number, 1 or 2 , but that could be a meaningful 1 or 2 in a close election. Im not going to impugn your reputation or claires. I hear what youre saying, tim. Claire, we have news tonight that robert f. Kennedy, jr. , the Third Party Candidate may be may be choosing Jesse Ventura, the former minnesota governor or the jets quarterback, aaron rogers, a known antivaxxer to be his running mate. Does this matter at this stage in the game, claire . Does the continued sort of thorniness of the kennedy candidacy have the potential to spoil this race . Well, first, dont get me started on aaron rogers, are they going to go off and do lsd together in a dark room . And the poor jets, right . But heres the thing, were going to have to spend, people are going to have to spend a lot of money explaining to people in this election that a vote for anyone other than joe biden is a vote for donald trump. And its going to be expensive. People dont realize they see the name, im look at all these polls, and yes he polls a few points from trump but polls from President Biden, and all of that is the name. I think the Kennedy Family would get involved. I believed they would because i know they think this is a horrible idea. But ive got to tell you the truth i dont think Jesse Ventura or aaron rogers is going to help someone whos got the whacky ideas someone like robert f. Kennedy has. Marie shriver was a guest at the state of the union. She was one of the can we call her a matriarch, one of the most prominent members. Thank you for joining me. I appreciate you. Still ahead the photo that simultaneously broke the internet and public trust. What the British Royal photo scandal says about institutional integrity and what donald trump had to do with all of it. That is next. What donald trump had to do with all of it that is next we planned well for retirement, but i wish we had more cash. You think those two have any idea . That they can sell their Life Insurance policy for cash . So theyre basically sitting on a goldmine . I dont think they have a clue. Thats crazy well, not everyone knows coventrys helped thousands of people sell their policies for cash. Even term policies. I cant believe theyre just sitting up there sitting on all this cash. If you own a Life Insurance policy of 100,000 or more, you can sell all or part of it to coventry. Even a term policy. For cash, or a combination of cash and coverage, with no future premiums. Someone needs to tell them, that theyre sitting on a goldmine, and you have no idea hey, guys youre sitting on a goldmine come on, guys do you hear that . I dont hear anything anymore. Find out if youre sitting on a goldmine. Call Coventry Direct today at the number on your screen, or visit coventrydirect. Com. The palace released a fake photo of Kate Middleten today. Several resources have recalled this photo of Kate Middleton and her children because they say its manipulated. If you look at prince charlottes sweater, you can see the sweater isnt fully there. Right here where the skirt juts out, i really believe this photo was taken back in 2023. Of course theyre not going to release a picture supposed to be brand new all in the same outfits in a publicized events, so they tinkered with it a bit. It was completely fakely generated. By now you have probably seen the photo that launched a thousand Conspiracy Theories. On saturday the family released this photo for british mothers day. Immediately people clocked several signs the photo had been digitally edited. Major News Agencies like the Associated Press and reuters removed the image from their official databases because the image appeared to have been manipulated by The Royal Family. For context here Kate Middleton has been absent from public life for about two months now. In january the palace announced she was undergoing Abdominal Surgery but it didnt give any details on her diagnosis, so the British Public was already awash in Conspiracy Theories here. And then in an attempt to kill all the speculation the royals admitted the photo theyd released had been edited. The official account for princess kate tweeted like many amateur photographers, i do occasionally experiment with editing. I wanted to express any confusion that the family photograph we shared yesterday caused. That only led to more questions, questions like why was the princess of wales doing her own crappy photo edits, and how did no one else in the palace catch this, and also why . I dont know maybe theres a totally legitimate explanation for all of this. But the global panic this one photo has caused is something of real concern. The rise of disinformation and misinformation paired with advances in Artificial Intelligence have given rise to a new era of uncertainty, one that threatens to upend our own political system here in the United States. I mean weve already seen real evidence of how deep fakes are interfering with the election. There was the fake robo call from joe biden or fake joe biden telling democratic voters to stay home in the state of new hampshire. Then there were the widely circulated fake images of donald trump surrounded by black supporters that was generated using a. I. But the impact of any single deep fake is ultimately less concerning than the general climate of suspicion generated simply by living in the era of deep fakes. As one stanford a. I. Researcher told the atlantic, you dont need to create a fake video for this tech to have a serious impact, you just point to the fact the tech exists, and you can impugn the integrity of the stuff that is real. That is where the significant danger lies, and it is already happening. We are witnessing the unraveling of shared reality. As notes the royal Photo Debacle is merely a microcosm of our current moment where trust in both Governing Institutions and Gate Keeping Organizations such as Main Stream Press is low. Were going to talk about what the end of shared reality means for the future of our democracy coming up next. R democracy coming up next morikawa on 18. He is really boxed in here. Not a good spot. Off the Comcast Business van. Into the vending area. Oh, not the fries wheres the ball . Anybody see it . Oh wait, there it is back into play and. Aw no, its in the water. Wait a minute. Are you kidding me . You got to be kidding me. Rolling towards the cup, and its in the hole what an impossible shot brought to you by Comcast Business. Is this real . That is the Question Millions of people had to ask themselves this week about this image published by one of the oldest institutions in the western world, the british monarchy. As technology improves, peoples ability to discern fact from fiction has worsened. The present scandal around the crown suggests public trust once shaken can just disappear entirely. In a new article for the Atlantic Charlie Warzel calls this moment the end of shared reality. He writes for years researchers and journalists have warned deep fakes and a. I. Tools will destroy any reality. Experts have warned technology might become so good at conjuring synthetic media it becomes difficult for anyone to believe anything they didnt witness themselves. The royal portrait debacle illustrates this era isnt forthcoming, were living in it. Joining me now is brian taylor cohost of the podcast and msnbc contributor. Brian, thank you for being here tonight. Im super eager to hear your thoughts on this. Not what is going on with Kate Middleton, though. Our thoughts are with her wherever she is, but just the impact of a sort of seismic cultural event, Internet Event like this in terms of it broader question of public trust and how damaging you think it is even outside of the u. K. , even here in america. Yeah, i mean, if you look at, for example, robo calls, the biden robo calls, if you look at the a. I. Generated images of donald trump surrounded by African American voters, obviously they have the shortterm impact of accomplishing what those a. I. Generated images or what those manipulated, you know, elements of those things are actually doing, so it has that benefit, first of all. But more insidiously, republicans gets the added benefit of shaking our faith in the reality of everything, that we dont know whats real, we dont know whats fake, we dont know what joe biden said, for example, or what donald trump said or what they didnt say. Because i think once we lose faith in the system, once people more broadly lose faith in the system they just check out, and so thats what trump and republicans want. This is the steve bannon model of flooding the zone, which im sure youre intimately familiar with, but republicans want a Splitical Space that feels so inacesable and so dirty and so manipulated and so broken that who would want to get involved . And that cynicism theyre kind of ingendering here really does correlate the republicans message of American Carnage and fear and dysfunction. This is all, i think, a coordinated strategy, and it comes from the top down. You heard the expression the fish rots from the head, and thats what were seeing here. I think one of the hallmarks of autocracy is people losing faith in institutions, right . And youve already heard the cry of fake news. It really feels this is the next prong in that strategy, which is anything trump and his supporters dont like on television theyre going to say its fake tv. And theres a concrete example of that. The Lincoln Project came out with this ad, and lets play it first. This is an ad from the Lincoln Project. We noticed something. More and more people are saying it, youre weak. You seem unsteady, you need help getting around. And wow an enormous, really an enormous are you sure you dont have dementia . Okay, thats an ad from the Lincoln Project and in response to it trump says on truth social the Lincoln Project are using a. I. In their fake Television Commercials in order to make me look as bad. This feels like the next front, right, if youre presented with visual evidence that doesnt seem favorable to your candidate and your candidate is donald trump, just call it fake. And i wonder how effective you think thats going to be more broadly. I think its going to be effective for the people who want to believe him, and thats what hell do. Everything is just as convenient as they want to make it. In this case if donald trump sees something, well, his own words which are obviously not going to be flattering and if he wants to write it off, he has that an excuse, as a fall back. So he can claim its an a. I. Generated image. By the way, thats kind of tacitads mission how ridiculous the things he says are, that he has to claim what he said was fake. I think thats kind of the big ts tell of all. Do you feel theres a way to put the Toothpaste Back in the tube . Can you rebuild public trust in the 21st century . I ask them as someone hopeful about institutional integrity. I think its going to take a lot of Digital Media literacy, which i dont think we have right now, which is clear we dont have right now. Its also the reason what you do is so important, what i try to do on a daily basis is so important. And thats to arm people with accurate information. It shows why its so important and arms people with the knowledge this kind of stuff is happening. All you can do is continuously pelt people with the truth over and over again and hopefully it has something of an impact. Like i said earlier its going to take a lot of Digital Literacy we dont have right now as a society. Sunlight and literacy, thats what its going to take. That is our show for this evening. Way too early with Jonathan Lemire is coming up next. What you are suggesting is that i needed to provide a different ve
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