Who investigated President Bidens mishandling of classified documents, a man named robert hur is grilled by House Members on the capitol. Concluding nothing President Biden did was worthy of prosecution, but that did not stop republicans in congress from making a fourhour circus out of mr. Hurs testimony today. Thats because todays hearing wasnt actually about matters of law. It was about scoring political points. The only reason Joe Biden Accidently taking classified documents with him when he left office, and the only reason that matters at all is because donald trump woefully, willfully, purposely took documents with him when he left office and then tried to obstruct justice to cover it o all up. These two cases are not the same, but just dont take my word for that. Here is Special Counsel hur reading from his own rt on the matter. Unlike the evidence involving mr. Biden, the allegations set forth in the indictment of mr. Trump if proven would present serious aligating facts. Keep going. Ctcongresswoman, im happy t let you c read the words of of report. Well, its your report so i think its more fitting you read those. Most notably after being asked to return documents and avoid prosecution mr. Trump did the opposite. He also obstructed justice. Well get into hurs apparent reluctance there to read the negative parts about donald trump o even if they were partse wrote. But congresswoman Madeleine Dean in the exchange forced mr. Hur to highlight the most important conclusion in this whole thing. In one case bidens you have what seems to be a legitimate mistake followed with full cooperation with law enforcement. And the other, trumps, you have what appears to be criminal the intent of obstruction of justice. And as to illustrate the chasm yesterday we got even more evidence just how intentionally criminal Donald Trumps actions appear to be. The witnesses f in the classified documents investigation, one of the witnesses came veforward. And up until yesterday we knew this witness only as Trump Employee 5. Cnn is now reporting that his name is brian butler. He was a longtime employee at maralago, and he witnessed some incredibly damning things like the day that trump flew from florida to bedminster, new jersey. Trumps body man and his codefendant, walt nauta, asked mr. Butler to get nauta a big suv, an escalade. Butler then saw nauta and trumps codefendant, Carlos Deolive yra load them up and load those boxes onto the plane. Mr. Butler said that all took place on june 3, 2022. Later that same day one of trumps lawyers provided investigators with what he said was the entirety of classified documents that remain o in mr. Trumps possession as well as a sworn certification that falsely claimed on trumps behalf that he and team trump had conducted a diligent search of boxes and all responsive documents had been turned over. What brian butler is now asserting here is pretty explosive. Not only did trump apparently hideaway at least 105 classified documents the fbi eventually found, it sure sounds like trump managed to steal another 10 to 15 boxes of records, and we donts, know if the fbi ever go those records back. Who knows where those boxes are now. That sure sounds like obstruction of justice. What is equally concerning here is why brian butler decided to go public right now. Here he was explaining his decision. Well, i mean, its been almost a year since fbi agents showed up at my house when my wife was at home, and, you know, over the course of the last year emotionally its been a roller coaster. A couple of weeks ago judge cannon said shes going to release the names of the witnesses. You know, you go from highs and lows in this. And instead of just waiting for it to just come out, i think its better that i get to at least say what happened than it coming out in the news, people calling anyone crazy. Id rather just get it out there andt the hope is at least i ca move on with my life and get over this. Brian butler coming forward with this is brave. President trump has a tracks record of trying to influence or intimidate witnesses who speak out against him, and his followers have a track record of harassingec and threatening anye they perceive to be one of Donald Trumps enemies. So coming out in this Big Public Way is in itself a big deal. As the months go on, the list of trumps transgressions, if not the list of his actual crimes, those lists continue to grow. And yet for now the maralago classified documents case is on hold. Andis instead of talking about trial in congress, the focus is instead on President Biden and not just howd he handled classified documents, which as a legal matter is already settled, instead the focus is on bidens age and whether hes fit to be president. The former Special Counsel himself played a huge role in that. The report made broad and seemingly unusual characterizations about bidens age. And now one of the people one of the Congress People who questioned hur today was congressman adam schiff. Remember that before becoming a congressman, schiff spent years as the assistant u. S. Attorney for the Central District of california,e meaning hes no stranger to how a prosecution like this shouldby run. He knows the rules, and he does not think the former Special Counsel has followed them. Politics played no part whatsoever in my investigative steps. You understood nevertheless mr. Hur, you cannot tell me youre so naive as to not think your words wouldnt create a political firestorm. You understood how they would be manipulated by my colleagues here on the gop side of the aisle and former President Trump, did you tot . Congressman, i understood the regulations of the Special Counsel. A confidential report by the Attorney General mr. Hur, what is in the rules what is in the rules you dont gratuitously do things to prejudice a subject of an investigation when youre declining to prosecute. You dont gratuitously add language you know will be useful in a Political Campaign. You were not born yesterday. You made a choice. It was a political choice. It was the wrong choice. Mr. Chairman, i yield back. Joining me now is congressman adam shif of california. Congressman schiff, its great to see you. You i think made a lot of made an impact today shall we say in your questioning of the former Special Counsel, and i just wonder what your assessment was after you asked him i think quite credibly whether he actually believed this was not a political document or he did not make any Political Considerations when assessing President Bidens memory. Did you believe him . Be no, i didnt believe him a all. You know, he tried to claim this was a confidential memo, but he was also forced to acknowledge he knew it would be made public, the Attorney General made it clear it would be made public. And the idea that he was required to give either this personalized, prejudicial bias and broadside to the president though it wasnt necessary in his report is absurd. He could have commented all he wanted as the president s recollectionhe as to this documt or that document. That would have been appropriate. But heav understands having don dozens and dozens of depositions witnesses are expected if they dont remember something clearly they should i dont recall. To make this Political Puck shot at the president during a midst of a Political Campaign when he knows how it would be used, a graveit abuse of prosecutorial authority, and he knows it. I also feel he wanted to issue a backhanded not quite indictment of the president. He refused he got into a big back and forth with congresswoman jamilla jayapal. Why did he refuse to exonerate him . I think you saw in the clip you played his reluctance to even read portions of of his report critical of donald trump. My sense was what he decided to do was lacking the evidence to make a recommendation to charges the president , he would do the next best thing, which is give them a political bludgeon, attack the president s memory, paint an unflattering portrait of him. That in many ways was more damaging than any observation he might have made about the facts or the chargeability of those facts. And so i think he has a tough time criticizing trump. He doesnt want to alienate someone who might be president , doesnt want to alienate the republican party, and i think this is his effort failing to find facts to charge or recommend charges to gratify the trump crowd. What do you make of the fundamental issue on display here or the fundamental conclusion that i think is worth repeating over and over again, the vast, vast gulf that separates what president g bide did versus what former President Trump did on the matter of Classified Document Retention . Do you think democrats made a forceful enough distinction, as it were, given all that republicans had stored up, the political bludgeon, as you call it, to try to muddy the waters, try to impugn President Bidens reputation, his age, and his fitness for office . I think, yes. Madeleine i think did a great job. Ted lou also went through, itemized a number of the charges against donald trump, the actions of trump, and concealing materials and trying to get people to lie about it. And talking about scrubbing the server that had Surveillance Footage on it. In all theseerments just Night And Day with President Bidens not deliberate effort to retain documents with his full cooperation with his lengthy interviews. It was a sharp contrast. I think democrats made that contrast. I also think its not some neutral, objective nonpartisan prosecutor. This is n someone who was a republican appointee who really found it difficult even though as you say it was his own words to read from his report in ways that would be critical of donald trump. And so i think the public got a sense of who he is, wheres hes coming from, that this is not a arbiter. Independent what republicans and former Special Counsel robert hur has to say about it, i do wonder how much of an impactw thats going to have wh the American Public as tee wed into p an election season wheree may not get of the federal criminal trials, they may not happen before the election. We have a witness coming forward andwi saying not only did donal trump retain boxes at his residence, he may have obtained 10 to 15 boxes more and sent them to points north or whatever. Do you think that had the impact it necessarily should, or there were some false equivalents made between bidenui taking things despite the fact it wasnt criminal, and what trump did. Do you think the trance gegzs of that case have lost the impact in the court of Public Opinion . I dont think they lost the impact, but as for the indictments some time ago i think its valuable to remind people of the itegregious facts. And i think mr. Butler coming forward particularly as you say given that the trial doesnt look like its going to go forward before the election to say, hey, the president was involved in hiding these classified materials. I was asked in a strange, suspicious way to help load these boxes of documents on the same day it turns out the president s lawyers are meeting with the Justice Department to go over these classified materials. Lord knows what happened today all these documents or some of these documents. I thought mr. Butlers statements also about having this billionaire foreign person talking about russian and other submarine capabilities or u. S. Capabilities, the Aastonishment Thates the president would talk to, you know, some wealthy and i dont know if this is a donor or just wealthy patron at maralago, shows you what a National Security risk that whole maralago enterprise was. Donald trumps willingness to discuss, Show Photographs and things to different partiesot tt were potentially classified materials. You know, its terrifying to think of him getting classified briefings now, and i really hope the agencies dumb down so they dont share anything with the president they dont want shared with the world. Yeah, only material published in the Washington Post and the new york times. That he probably wont read either. Congressman adam schiff, thank you for making the time tonight. Really appreciate it. Thank you. We have a lot to get to this evening including what a doctored photo of The Royal Family means for american politics. Plus, potential president ial spoiler. Rfk jr. Announced his short list for running mate includes, surprise, a very prominent antivaxxer. What that could mean for november coming up. Xer. What that could mean for november coming up and there was one time he said, well, were all dirty, we all move boxes. And i said, look, i didnt even remember what i was moving until i was a at the plane and thats why i remember moving boxes. Were all dirty, we all move boxes. Not you, not me. Unless theyre empty amazon boxes. The man speaking there is butler, a long maralago employee who quit three months. He was referenced in the criminal indictment as Trump Employee number 5. While nbc news has not independently confirmed mr. Butlers role here, the fact he has come forward now is telling. Any day now the judge in this case, aileen cannon, may released the identities of unnamed potential witnesses like witness number 5, which puts at least a dozen others like mr. Butler at risk. Judge cannon has yet to rule on whether shell release the names of those witnesses for the prosecution. She held a hearing 11 days ago on the matter, and as far as that trial date, that is still very much tbd. Joining me now to discuss all this is msnbc legal analyst lisa rubin. Its so wonderful to have you on set here to explain my continued confusion about what exactly is happening down in florida. And other legal scholars. Whats cannon going to do here . I mean this seems like a very bad call just on its face, witnesses should be protected especially if the president has a history. Cannon clearly still has a leaning toward revealing their names. And she actually asked David Harbaugh of the Special Counsels office verbatim has there been any evidence these witnesses have been threatened, and his response was sort of incredulous, and he said to her, well, thats not the standard, your honor. We dont have to show a witness has been threatened in order to make a credible case to you that the revelation of their names would compromise the investigation as well as their Public Safety . Do you feel if see says no jack smith takes this to the 11th circuit . I do. Jack smith does take it to the 11th circuit because there are 20 to 25 other witnesses according to har baughs estimation that could be impacted, and its not just their identities wrn y. To be clear to you and our viewers. Its about the substance of their testimony as well. There could be communications between members of the Prosecution Team between and among them about some of these witnesses. And some of them are incidental. Lets say theyre talking about lisa rubin, a witness, and lower down in the chain theyre talking about alex wagner. You could end up having alex wagners name out in the domain even though its entirely incidental for the purpose in which the hibits were used in these underlying motions. That is the subject of this unsealing order. I do wonder when we talk about the most explosive elements of this interview with mr. Butler, i was shocked of his account of helping to load 10 to 15 Bankers Boxes, Bankers Boxes he said looked very much like the boxes storing classified documents weve seen photos of in the document. That those 10 to 15 boxes were loaded onto a plane and took off. To me, i find the Special Counsel first of all, they knew this months ago. Why not continue looking for them . What does that reflect on the part of jack smith . First of all, we dont know that they havent recovered them. It could be they have determined all of those boxes were returned to maralago or somewhere else, that they essentially follow trump around wherever he went. I had a conversation with someone on your team tonight about our shared recollection that when trump showed up in new york last year for a deposition in a new York Attorney general civil fraud case, he was seen outside trump tower with personal aides carting those very same sorts of Bankers Boxes. Look, there is a reference in the indictment to the fact that Carlos De Olliva and others shuttled those boxes to maralago. In the back of my mind this is all pure speculation, i should warn everyone at home. That it seems jack smith probably more than anyone else at the Department Of Justice has Noods The Aprieveiated calender within which hes working. Like he built a federal indictment on january 6th made for speed, lets get it done. That is very much up in the air. The maralago classified documents case seems very narrow, very clear. He didnt bother with the dissemination charge, for e