Transcripts For MSNBCW Chris 20240703 : vimarsana.com

MSNBCW Chris July 3, 2024

Mcdougals story would have been National Enquirer gold, and his decision not to run it was purely to help donald trump. Joining me now, nbcs Vaughn Hillyard outside the courthouse, former federal prosecutor paul butler is back with me. Former assistant new York Attorney general Tristan Snell is in studio, and Jeremy Soland, criminal Defense Attorney and former manhattan prosecutor. Im going to start with you because youre a Defense Attorney and youre new to this table. Its a challenge, right, no matter how many times the defense keeps going back and back and back to david pecker, trying to show this wasnt about the campaign, which is what you did, this is standard operating procedure, they said that over and over and over again yesterday. Let me give you one of the later pieces of back and forth, and this is steinglass trying to, again, disprove that bove had just done, the Defense Attorney. How many, meaning of these stories, did you coordinate with a president ial candidate for the benefit of a campaign. Its the only one. In this case, did you suppress stories to help a president ial candidate, pecker, yes. How do you think the defense is doing when thats what theyre faced with . I think they did score some points. Its the only president , thats for certain, but we heard about arnold schwarzenegger, for example, so it wasnt the first time this has happened. We heard about this other times before. In fact, there was a relationship starting in 1998 with the former president who then was not the president. I think the defense did score some points but not as much as they think because pecker came across as a pretty reasonable, regular guy, maybe there was some mistakes in his memory, but not some malicious illwilled person. I think they scored points but not as much as they would like to have. Let me go back to Vaughn Hillyard. Get us a recap of the highlights of the day, and well talk about them on The Other Side. Look, this is what happens in trials, right . The prosecution tries to shore up the testimony. The defense tries to knock it down. Thats exactly how it goes in every trial. But in this trial, what were some of the key moments that you saw . Reporter over the course of the three hours this morning of the crossexamination of david pecker, the team for donald trump was trying to hone in on questions around his own story. There was that January Of 2017 meeting. I think its the best example where david pecker, earlier this week, answering the prosecutions questions, testified he showed up in trump tower before he was sworn in as president , and he replaced the likes of sean spicer, reince priebus. James comey, and in conversation with donald trump, that he thanked him for, i should say donald trump thanked david pecker and ami for purchasing the rights of dino the doormans story as well as Karen Mcdougals story, and that was what was testified by david pecker just this week. But then when Donald Trumps defense team had the opportunity to cross examine him this morning, well, then why did you tell federal prosecutors in july of 2018 that you did not recall donald trump thanking you for purchasing the rights to those two stories, and david pecker said im not sure why the transcript read that way. All i can tell you now is that i recall him thanking me, and this is part of the defense teams efforts to call into question not only the veracity of that story that david pecker was sharing but generally his memory about events that took place now almost nine years ago. Almost eight years ago, almost seven years ago in just that one example was a key to them, at least in the jurys mind of having them question the veracity of his retelling or at least what he recalled, Versus Kwhaerms testify today when what he testified today when answering the prosecutions questions. This 150,000 that went to Karen Mcdougal, were not talking about hush money. She was on the cover of a couple of magazines. She had ghost written a couple of columns that were in magazines, published by ami, the publisher of National Enquirer, but on redirect, the prosecution asked this, quote, is that true, mr. Pecker, was that your purpose in locking up the Karen Mcdougal story, to influence the election . Again, yes. Is that the advantage of the prosecution being able to prep a witness . Is that good witness preparation or is it maybe that, but also just thats the truth as he sees it . I mean, you can always say that it was coaching, of course. But i think the thing is theres also a common sense element to this. 150,000 for a couple of covers and ghost writing some columns, you know, a column, thats usually about, you know, 300. I hope somebody actually points that out that, like, you dont get paid 150,000 to write a magazine or newspaper column. You dont get anywhere near that, a few hundred bucks tops. Less than that or sooer. Zero. That was Window Dressing to make it look good. I do think theres a common sense element to this thats going to be difficult for the jury to get around. Is he right, jeremy . Because im looking at the look on your face, and youre nodding. Thats spot on. Why are they even pursuing mcdougal in the first place. Theres a story thats prevented from becoming public. You dont leave your common sense at the courthouse foot steps. You go with it and leave with it. I think thats a fair statement. If we look forward, paul, peckers Testimony Set Up testimony from hope hicks, very close to donald trump. Left the administration on good terms. Pecker says hope hicks, he says he discussed the Mcdougal Agreement with her, along with white house aide and arkansas governor, Sarah Huckabee sanders, this would have been in the spring of 2018, well after donald trump had taken office. Whats the relevance, if any, as you see it, of the fact that this was happening after trump had been elected . Yeah, so we know that hope hick was involved in these calls with trump and ami. Shes going to be a super important witness because she doesnt have cohens baggage, Michael Cohens baggage. Its the opposite. Hope hicks was team trump all the way during the period thats the subject of this indictment. So it makes her especially credible. Shes going to be able to connect the Hush Money Payments with trumps president ial ambitions. Thats what prosecution also needed david pecker to do. To link the catch and kill agreement to the campaign, and thats exactly what he did. So, again, the defense tried to attack peckers credibility in order to testify. They didnt score big points, and theyre not going to be able to go there with hope hicks. Shes going to be a strong witness for the prosecution. You know, jeremy, before the break, defense spent a lot of time grilling david pecker about a nonprosecution agreement, the jurors learned an awful lot about catch and kill. On one hand, its pretty straightforward, right . Catch and kill is you find out that theres a story that you want to bury, you pay for it, and you make sure they sign an agreement that says nobody else ever gets this story, right, but theres also a lot of weeds to it, what was the nda, but basically on the face of it, do jurors get whats happening here from what you have heard so far . I think so, and these nonprosecution agreements, these agreements to testify, they are not atypical. I think there was a line of attack about ami wanting to be sold. You had to clear this up because it wasnt cleared up. You were not going to get the money. It wasnt going to go to sale. Thats why you do it. At the end of the day, its relevant, that wasnt why. There was money that was going to be made. Its the little holes theyre poking. Does it build enough, i dont know as of yet. You keep talking, kristen, about common sense. I have had an opportunity to talk to jurors after the fact, and i think most people, and you guys can disagree with me, but i think most people i talked to, jurors take very seriously, and we heard that even in some of the cases in voir dire here, the juror said, i can be fair, right, and they take that into the jury room, most jurors feel like, and especially, i would think, in a case like this, they have an awesome responsibility. So they look at the evidence. But how much is about the evidence and how much of it is about common sense, whos going to pay 150,000 for a couple of articles and a couple of covers of magazine, not to disparage the people who worked on those magazines, werent exactly alist magazines. Even if they had been alist magazines. Anybody knows exactly what a publication is paying. Its not that. There are too many 0s on that number, lets put it that way. You weigh the evidence. The common sense is what turns the evidence into a narrative and the narrative is what determines how the jury is going to come out. Theyre going to construct a story. The common sense is sort of the Connective Tissue that allows that juror to come up with that narrative in the jurors own mind as to what this case is about. Vaughn hillyard, as were waiting for donald trump to reenter the courtroom, and it can be in the next five minutes or so, we had just reported that joe biden in a Radio Interview today said that he was willing to debate. So of course, it didnt take long for donald trump to post on truth social. He said, Crooked Joe Biden Just Announced that hes willing to debate. Everyone knows he doesnt really mean it, but in case he does, i say anywhere, anytime, any place, the post went on to say that since biden is in New York City today, and i should say that we saw his motorcade going past 30 rock here, and like trump, who is quote stuck in one of the many court cases that he instigated as Election Interference against a political opponent, a continuing witch hunt, all of which has been disproved, should debate at the courthouse tonight on national television. Ill wait around. Let me get, first your analysis of this. No big surprise about donald trump. It looks like, could we see a debate . Reporter right. First of all, i dont expect that we have a Friday Night Live Rendition here in lower manhattan. Its a sleepy around these parts on friday evenings. Donald trump is looking for a story line. As a general election candidate, he would love to debate joe biden. Theres nothing precluding joe biden from agreeing to debate. Donald trump has made this a case. He has brought on an empty podium to signify hes ready to debate joe biden whenever the current president would like to. There are three debates speaking of speaking of the man, you may not be able to see this, vaughn reporter taking place in september and october. Donald trump just walked in. Im making note of the fact you probably cant see it. He walked back into the courtroom. Sorry i interrupted you. Reporter its okay. Usually those debates dont take place until september or october, but this was notable because joe biden over the course of the last many months made the suggestion, lets see how he acts before we make a commitment to the debates, a long standing tradition to do. Today in the howard stern interview, joe biden suggesting he would look to seek to debate donald trump at the appropriate time, and of course now trump utilizing that to say, well, lets do it now. I was just talking about the fact that, you know, i think jurors take their job very seriously, and paul butler, im wondering when theyre told you cant read you, cant look up anything about this case. You cant go home and google who david pecker is or what a nonprosecution agreement is or any of that stuff, can they be following this part of it . Can they be following the Campaign Part of it and still be legitimately following what judge told them . No, theyre not supposed to look at any news item regarding donald trump. It doesnt matter if it has to do with the campaign, and certainly not the trial. And in my experience, they do take that responsibility very seriously. So, guys, what are you looking for when we restart here . What can and should the defense do here before we finish with this witness . You know, as much holes as they can poke in him. I know hes mild mannered, coming across as a genuine guy. I know they cant get him on selling ami for extra money. There are inconsistencies. His agreement to testify, i think theyre in a difficult spot. Overall, pecker is a win, whether its 100 win or 95 win for the prosecution. He set that foundation. He set the groundwork, we know what this is about, and now all of the spokes are going to come from him as we hear other witnesses. Paul butler, thank you. Vaughn, tristan, youre going to stand by. The judge, how hes handled this unprecedented case so far and the ongoing attacks from the president. A retired judge who has known juan merchan for 15 years is going to join us after this. Oin. Is he . Claritin clear . Yeah. Fast relief of your worst allergy symptoms, like nasal congestion. Live claritin clear® nothing dims my light like a migraine. 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Nice guy. Michael cohen was a liar, he got in trouble because of things outside of what he did for me. That jury was picked so fast, 95 democrats. Are they going to look at all the lies cohen did in the last trial. He puts in an invoice or whatever, a bill, and they pay it and call it a legal expense. I got indicted for that. Joining me now is retired judge and former New York State Supreme Court justice. Shes also known the judge at the center of this case, juan merchan, for 15 years. Let me start where we left off there. A lot of people want to know whats going to happen with the fact that the prosecution is charging time after time donald trump has violated the gag order that judge juan merchan put in place. A lot of them have asked the question, why is he not ruling on this, whats he waiting for . You know him. You probably have some idea of how he works. Do you have an answer for them . I dont have a precise answer, but i can tell you that obviously this trial is in a fish bowl. Judge merchans goal and job, quite frankly is to bring it to verdict. And there are certain things that are, you know, bumps along the way, and this is one of them. He also wants to take his time to make sure he makes the right decision. The legislature did not give this judge or any of us a whole lot of options with respect to contempt. You can hold someone in contempt by finin

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