Washington, d. C. I am jen psaki. Chris hayes has the night off and will be back tomorrow night. Donald trump is back in court this morning for day 10, if you are counting, of his criminal trial. Todays proceedings began with another hearing on the ex president s repeated and i mean repeated violations of his gag order. We will talk about that later in the show for sure, but things really got interested once davidson returned to the stand today. He is the former lawyer for both of the women trump is accused of paying off. Karen mcdougal and Stormy Daniels. From the witness stand, davidson pulled back the curtain on a statement he wrote on behalf of daniels, seeming to deny her affair with trump. He admitted with trump sitting in front of him in the courtroom that the Stormy Daniels statement was designed to look like a denial. Basically a nondenial denial, you could say. The statement wrote i have recently became aware that certain news outlets are alleging i have a sexual or romantic affair with donald trump many, many years ago. I am stating with complete clarity that this is absolutely false. The and or is a strange part of the statement. Davidson used some particularly lawyerly language to parse why he believed that statement to be true, saying, quote, i dont think anyone had ever alleged that any interaction between daniels and trump was romantic. Look, i have written a lot of statements in my time. Not about the sort of thing, fortunately. Despite the just Friends With Benefits vibe of davidsons answers, the interesting part to me is there is no outright denial of what happened or who is behind the attempt to cover it up and he testified that it was his understanding that trump and daniels did indeed have a bit of a thing going on, you could say. Later in the afternoon the jury heard audio from Michael Cohen for the first time in the form of a previously released recording of a phone call where cohen and trump discuss paying off mcdougal to cover up that affair, including cohen discussing financing and trump seeming to confirm the amount. We knew that recording was out there, but today the jury got to hear donald trump in his own voice. There is something to that. Ive spoken to Allen Weisselberg about how to set the whole thing up with funding. Yes. Its all the stuff. All the stuff, because so i am all over that. And i spoke to alan about it. When it comes time for the financing, which will be what financing . Well, ill have to pay him something. No check. It is pretty specific. The jury also heard a recording regarding Stormy Daniels and this recording we did not know about before today. Nobody is thinking about michael. You understand . Despite what, for example the earlier conversation, you know, and who else would do that for somebody, who else . Yeah. I did. Yeah. Because i care about the guy and i wasnt going to play penny wise pound foolish. Right. Right. And i am sitting there. Im saying to myself, what about me . What about me . And i cant even tell you how many times he said to me, you know, i hate the fact that we did it and my comment to him was, but every person that you have spoken to told you it was the right move. Right. That was a lot of Michael Cohen and only a tiny bit of Keith Davidson and that reporting, but davidson said he understood that he referred to trump and we did it referred to the payment to daniels. Couldnt be much more clear than that, i think. Remember the entire argument for a big part of the argument made by the defenses that trump knew nothing about these payments, that Michael Cohen went rogue when he paid these women, for what reason no one can explain except trump. It seems to fly in the face of the notion this happened without trumps knowledge, something Michael Cohen himself will likely attest to when he takes the stand later in the trial. We also expect to hear from others close to trump, including his longtime aide, hope hicks, who was on these calls and could provide amount of evidence in the days ahead. Lisa rubin is a Legal Correspondent in the courthouse today. George conway is an attorney and contributing writer at the atlantic, covering the trump trials. Mary mccort has spent 20 years as a federal prosecutor in d. C. , where she served as the chief of the Criminal Division and hosts the podcast, prosecuting donald trump. They all join me now. Lisa, lets start with you because you were at the trial today. What was it like when they heard these recordings for the first time . We heard a lot of recordings for the first time. We heard the two that you mentioned and there were others that the defense admitted because they say they demonstrate that Keith Davidson was a person not to be trusted, that he was playing games with the Stormy Daniels story and by the spring of 2015 when Michael Avenatti took over the Stormy Daniels case, he was effectively saying to people, you know that this is all what my grandmother would call and the defense tried to get davidson to say that was his understanding of the story, which he wouldnt. I think the one that had the most impact, even though trumps voice was not on it was the one about Stormy Daniels, for a couple of reasons. One, the falsification of the Business Records that comprises the charge, it is not about karen mcdougal, it is about Stormy Daniels. The second part is that Michael Cohen and Keith Davidson have the conversation in the fall of 2017, before Michael Cohen himself went rogue and broke from trump world. To hear him say in his own voice not only is no one worried about me, but i cant tell you how many times he and i have talked about the fact that he hated that we did the settlement and yet everyone around him consistently told him it was the right thing to do. That demonstrates that the people within the cone of knowledge may not have just been cohen and pecker and davidson and trump, but potentially others, as well. At least by the fall of 2017, even if they didnt know so in real time. That was the call that timmy had the most impact and i am interested to see, as this goes on, whether we will hear further recordings that cohen made on his own or other participants may have made. The prosecution has said all along, you think this case is all about Michael Cohen, but really you are going to see a whole lot of evidence that you didnt expect. We are going to show you paper an email and Text Messages and recordings and sure enough that is exactly what they have done so far. I mean, that recording, i hate the fact that we did it. It was Michael Cohen repeating something trump said to him and it also struck me as significant. Also we had not heard that recording before, so maybe there will be more things we heard. What struck you george . That struck me. Some people online said they may have thought that was helpful, but i cant see it. Its like having two bank robbers and one robs the bank and one leader says on tape to somebody else, you know, my co conspirator, my cobank robber, the guy who drove the getaway car kind of aggressively did that. We shouldnt of robbed the bank. That does not help the defense and the other thing about it is again, as lisa pointed out, the timing. This was back when cohen was not only in trumps good graces, but as the u. S. Attorneys office later said, acting at the benefit of and direction of individual number one, donald trump. It is so interesting. Mary, we were talking earlier before we came onset about what they are trying to do, the prosecution, to set this up for Michael Cohens testimony. He has credibility issues which people have spoken about. That is part of the defense line of argument. So what were they trying to do today with playing these recordings and putting questioning out there . I think credibility is an understatement. I worked in diplomacy. They are going to corroborate every single possible way they can, through text, emails, through recordings. Corroborate in advance the things they expect him to say, but they are also trying to take the sting out of the bad stuff. They are not shying away from painting him as somebody, frankly, that no one seemed to like. People have testified so far, including, in particular, davidson, did not have nice things to say about mr. Cohen and certainly thought he was aggressive and put pressure on people and was nasty and things like that and i think they want to get the jury kind of comfortable with this, so that that is not a new thing by the time he takes the stand, so they can focus on what he is testifying to and how that has been corroborated. The psychology of this as a nonlawyer is so interesting to me. Lisa, this may not have been the most important part of today, but i thought Keith Davidson kind of parsing his words when discussing the denial he wrote for Stormy Daniels, i dont know, it felt a little odd, but i am sure there was a strategy to it. What do you think . First of all when i was thinking of Keith Davidson on the stand, explaining how he thought those statements were factually accurate, even though anyone could see how misleading they were, i thought this is why normal people hate lawyers, right . So lawyerly, yes. It is why people make lawyer jokes, but in all seriousness i think davidson had a reasonable explanation. He had a client who was chomping at the bit to exploit some of the notoriety she was getting and at the same time she took seriously the fact that the agreement that she had had a liquidated damages clause that meant if she breached the Confidentiality Part of the agreement, she could have to pay 1 million for each violation and so he was between a client who very much wanted to be in The Public Eye and mitigating risk for her and that is how he chose to do it. From that standpoint the sort of obnoxiousness of Keith Davidson trying to be like this is what i did and it was too cute by half and yeah i did it. It is more sympathetic in that i. Whether the jury will take that away, im not sure, but to marys point i think the prosecution is doing an overall good job sort of situating this story and seediness of some of the people involved. They dont have to like these folks. They just have to believe they are telling the truth about the ultimate alleged bad guy, the former president of the united states. We have to take a break in a moment, but i have been wondering all day what you thought of this trump post where he is is he said contrary to the Fake News Media i dont fall asleep during the crooked d. A. S witchhunt. I simply close my beautiful blue eyes, sometimes, listen intently, and take it all in. George conway. That is perfect donald trump. His reputation has been in the past that he is sleepy donald. Ive talked to people who wrote books about him back in the day and he never showed up at trump tower before 11 00 a. M. And we know what he did at the white house. He was not there in the morning. He was not an early riser to read his important briefing books. This is rough on him. He has to get up every morning. He is not free to fly around the country like we are and the people on the telephone commercials. There is that for a reason. Okay, you are all staying where you are. We are going to discuss the gag order. We are going to take a really quick break and we will be right back. Right back. I have moderate to severe Plaque Psoriasis. Thanks to skyrizi, im on my way with clearer skin. 3 out of 4 people achieved 90 clearer skin at 4 months. And skyrizi is just 4 doses a year after 2 starter doses. Serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. Tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine, or plan to. Nothing on my skin means everything nothing is everything ask your dermatologist about skyrizi. Learn how abbvie could help you save. Youll love this Centrum Silver is clinically proven to support memory in older adults. So you can keep saying, you mastered it you fixed it you nailed it you did it with Centrum Silver, clinically proven to support memory in older adults. Smile you found it. 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Theres only one sotyktu, so ask for it by name. So clearly you. Sotyktu. Business. So clearly you. Its not a ninetofive proposition. Its all day and into the night. Its all the things that keep this world turning. The gotos that keep us going. The places we cheer. And check in. They all choose the advanced Network Solutions and round the Clock Partnership from Comcast Business. See why Comcast Business powers more Small Businesses than anyone else. Get started for 49. 99 a month plus ask how to get up to an 800 prepaid card. Dont wait call today. Donald trump was in court for half an hour before the jury this morning for yet another hearing to determine if he violated his gag order. We have done this a few times now. Prosecutors flagged for incidents on tape of trump talking about prosecutors and the jury. When are they going to look at all of the lies . He got caught lying in the last trial. So he got caught lying. Pure line. That jury was picked so fast. 95 democrats. The area is mostly all democrats. You think of it as purely a democrat area. Michael cohen is a convicted liar and he has no credibility whatsoever. He was a lawyer and you rely on your lawyers, but he was a convicted lawyer. Hes been very nice. Davids been very nice. Nice guy. Remember trump has to write a 9000 check, a lot of money for most people, for social media posts the judge found violated his order. While the judge warned the jail time could be a process consequence, prosecutor said theyre not seeking that yet. Still with me, lisa rubin, George Conway and mary mccord. I cant imagine how many times you get asked this question, like why havent they put him in jail . But prosecutors dont want that right now, why not . They said two things. One, he had not been warned yet by judge merchan on tuesday that the next consequence might be jail at the time they moved to hold him in contempt. So really, that would not necessarily change what the judge could do, because there is a statute that says what the judge can do. It says you can be given 1000 per incident or incarcerated for 30 days, but i think the prosecutor is saying he was not really on notice. This was his last chance. The other thing he said was it is very disruptive and were trying not to be so disruptive. To be honest i think what they also think is this would make donald trump more of a martyr. That is what i was wondering, if they were thinking that, if that is the calculus for the prosecutors. I think they have to be thinking that. On one hand donald trump does not want to spend a night or two nights in a cellblock, much less 30, but i think prosecutors dont want that happening in the middle of this trial with him getting a whole lot of people thinking that this is a weaponized justice system, et cetera, et cetera. Lisa, we know you were in the courtroom today, but you are also outside the courthouse every day, telling us what is happening. What happened in this hearing and for those trying to stay up with this, why doesnt the judge rule in the moment and say you violated this, this is what you have to pay . For one thing, i think he expects that in all accounts with respect to the gag order, the Trump Lawyers will seek an appeal, so he wants to reduce his decision to writing so other judges have the benefit of seeing his decisions. He is also trying to be as fair and deliberate as he can be and there is one other facet. In the last order he basically said if there are witnesses that use his gag order as a sword and shield, that would be a consideration for him as he weighs whether there are further violations. Today todd blanche brought up a number of social media posts by Michael Cohen in the last couple weeks, including a couple on april 22, april 23, which are the same dates as some of the statements donald trump made about cohen. His point was, look, my client is responding to political attacks on him by Michael Cohen. I think judge merchan is weighing what to do about that to ensure that people who need to be protected are protected, but also considering, do other participants in this process need to themselves be subjected to the gag order to ensure the